Do you need to engrave a Form 1’ed SBR? - Page 2

Armory » Short Barreled Rifles (SBR)

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Do you need to engrave a Form 1’ed SBR? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 1/12/2019 1:49:01 PM EDT

[#1]

Quote History

Quoted:

The barrel isn't the serialized part. The receiver is. He's just talking about engraving the maker's info on the barrel.

View Quote

Exactly. There has been registered dewat machine guns reactivated. When they are reactivated they must be engraved by the reactivating entity just like a SBR. Its been done by engraving the barrel and then replacing it which on many MGs can be easy.

Posted: 1/14/2019 11:39:46 AM EDT

[#2]

Quote History

Quoted:

"Conspicuous" only applies to the MFG or Maker during the MFG or Making. Does not apply to the end-user. End-user is only bound to not "removed, obliterated, or alter".

View Quote

My questions is how do guns like the MPX get around this? The receiver is only engraved with Multi, only the barrel has 9mm and that is covered by the handguard.

Posted: 1/14/2019 11:56:55 AM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
My questions is how do guns like the MPX get around this? The receiver is only engraved with Multi, only the barrel has 9mm and that is covered by the handguard.

View Quote

The MULTI marking is completely irrelevant (done just for marketing) and the caliber engraving on the barrel is what counts.

Since ATF doesn't care about handguard covering, with regard to commercial manufacturers, they're not going to care with regard to you either.

Posted: 1/14/2019 12:23:06 PM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
The MULTI marking is completely irrelevant (done just for marketing) and the caliber engraving on the barrel is what counts.

Since ATF doesn't care about handguard covering, with regard to commercial manufacturers, they're not going to care with regard to you either.

View Quote

I realize that about the multi. My point is that is unclear. Caliber is listed right along with manufacturer, serial number and location. If the ATF ignores caliber, why can't I have my trust and location marked under the handguard as well? I realize we shouldn't expect consistency from the government but by a plain text reading of the CFR it doesn't seem to differentiate between the different required markings.

If I buy a non caliber or "multi Marked Lower" and SBR it would seem I can put a handguard on it that completely covers the caliber markings on the barrel without also engraving the caliber conspicuously. Why is caliber different then Maker name and location? Can I also engrave those on the barrel and have them covered by a handguard?

I don't risk it and engrave the name and location in plain view but it seems by not also engraving the caliber in plain view I could be afoul of the CFR. But some manufactures guns have the caliber hidden.

Academic inquiry and probably overthinking it.

Posted: 1/14/2019 12:34:43 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
I realize that about the multi. My point is that is unclear. Caliber is listed right along with manufacturer, serial number and location. If the ATF ignores caliber, why can't I have my trust and location marked under the handguard as well? I realize we shouldn't expect consistency from the government but by a plain text reading of the CFR it doesn't seem to differentiate between the different required markings.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:
I realize that about the multi. My point is that is unclear. Caliber is listed right along with manufacturer, serial number and location. If the ATF ignores caliber, why can't I have my trust and location marked under the handguard as well? I realize we shouldn't expect consistency from the government but by a plain text reading of the CFR it doesn't seem to differentiate between the different required markings.

ATF isn't ignoring caliber. The "barrel, frame, or receiver" are all acceptable locations for any of the required NFA markings. The only caveat is that the serial number needs to be engraved on the part which is the actual "firearm," typically the receiver. Any other added NFA markings can certainly go on the barrel, if you want.

In the case of certain DD's they'll actually allow you to place the serial on another part, if you ask.

Why is caliber different then Maker name and location?

It isn't.

Can I also engrave those on the barrel and have them covered by a handguard?

Sure.

Posted: 1/14/2019 12:58:06 PM EDT

[#6]

What I am saying is the are ignoring the conspicuously requirement in regards to caliber.

...and "conspicuous" means that all required markings must be placed in such a manner as to be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For example, required markings may not be placed on a portion of the barrel where the markings would be wholly or partially obstructed from view by another part of the firearm, such as a flash suppressor or bayonet mount.

Posted: 1/14/2019 1:52:20 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
What I am saying is the are ignoring the conspicuously requirement in regards to caliber.

...and "conspicuous" means that all required markings must be placed in such a manner as to be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For example, required markings may not be placed on a portion of the barrel where the markings would be wholly or partially obstructed from view by another part of the firearm, such as a flash suppressor or bayonet mount.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:
What I am saying is the are ignoring the conspicuously requirement in regards to caliber.

...and "conspicuous" means that all required markings must be placed in such a manner as to be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For example, required markings may not be placed on a portion of the barrel where the markings would be wholly or partially obstructed from view by another part of the firearm, such as a flash suppressor or bayonet mount.

Yes, in practice ATF frequently does ignore the "conspicuously" requirement.

Or if you want to interpret it another way...
It is true that the marking was conspicuous when placed on the barrel, but became a bit less conspicuous once the hand guard was added.

There are always different interpretations to requirements.
ATF Ruling 2002-6, that you cited above, is probably the most strict, but it's just an opinion letter and doesn't carry the significance of CFR or U.S.C.

There's no rule stating one cannot render the markings less conspicuous by adding parts or accessories.

27 CFR 179.102(a) states:

(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed.

and 26 U.S.C. 5842(a) (which is the actual law) states:

Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.

ATF also allows other means of identification, if will not unduly hinder the effective administration, which is why the "marking variance" is a thing (for FFLs).
See ATF Ruling 2009-5 for some more info on those.

Posted: 1/18/2019 12:55:45 AM EDT

[#8]

where would you engrave a PS90 when SBR it?

Posted: 1/18/2019 2:45:49 AM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
where would you engrave a PS90 when SBR it?

View Quote

Anywhere on the metal receiver that is visible. One of the uprights is most common.

Posted: 1/18/2019 10:25:56 AM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
My last form 1 actually has a stamp in red on it mentoining that it has to be engraved as part of the approval.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/124206/IMG_3292_jpg-790140.JPG

View Quote

If that doesn't lay it out crystal clear then maybe you should take advantage of the free education provided in the federal penitentiary when you arrive......

Remember, you are a US citizen and unlike someone here illegally, they will prosecute you for anything they can........

Posted: 1/18/2019 12:05:53 PM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:
If that doesn't lay it out crystal clear then maybe you should take advantage of the free education provided in the federal penitentiary when you arrive......

Remember, you are a US citizen and unlike someone here illegally, they will prosecute you for anything they can........

View Quote

Find someone who's been prosecuted for failing to engrave.

I dare you.

It is unacceptable to fail to engrave, per CFR, which according to U.S.C. carries the weight of law, but nobody is going to the pen for it, nor have they ever been prosecuted to the best of my knowledge.

That's just not how it works.

Posted: 1/18/2019 12:51:26 PM EDT

[#12]

ranoia

Quote History

Quoted:

Find someone who's been prosecuted for failing to engrave.

I dare you.

It is unacceptable to fail to engrave, per CFR, which according to U.S.C. carries the weight of law, but nobody is going to the pen for it, nor have they ever been prosecuted to the best of my knowledge.

That's just not how it works.

View Quote

This.
Despite the paranoia, ATF doesn't decide who gets prosecuted, the US Attorneys Office does.
Most likely ATF would tell you to "follow the damn law son" and at worst seize your noncompliant firearm and engrave it themselves in a less than beautiful manner.

Posted: 1/18/2019 4:03:32 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:

Find someone who's been prosecuted for failing to engrave.

I dare you.

It is unacceptable to fail to engrave, per CFR, which according to U.S.C. carries the weight of law, but nobody is going to the pen for it, nor have they ever been prosecuted to the best of my knowledge.

That's just not how it works.

View Quote

I'm not willing to bet 10 minutes of my life, let alone 10 years, that all fed prosecutors from now until the end of time will continue to not be interested in this. Have they been "all over" this issue up to now? Onbiously not, but that proves nothing about the future, especially as the courts and their occupants get more and more liberal/statist over time. We already have AGs actively subverting the state Constitution they swore to protect (looking at you turd Ferguson in WA!), just a matter of time until a prosecutor gets a wild hair or has nothing else to "get" the "bad guy" on in a case.

Posted: 1/21/2019 3:56:40 PM EDT

[#14]

110% Yes they need to be engraved. Seems like this subject keeps getting brought up. If someone else doesn't engrave the lower, let them risk it.

Posted: 1/25/2019 3:25:10 PM EDT

[#15]

Let people gamble with the law if they want. Its their choice.

Posted: 3/6/2019 11:02:19 AM EDT

[#16]

I have an F4 MG with the engraving on the barrel. It was originally done as an F1 by an individual. I have since replaced the barrel. I still have the old barrel. Am I supposed to re-engrave the makers info onto the new barrel?

BTW, the original makers info was engraved under the handguard. Not conspicuous.

Posted: 3/6/2019 1:32:25 PM EDT

[#17]

~~dont need to engrave until you sell. dont take my word for it, contact a lawyer.~~

Mod edit: striking through erroneous info

Posted: 3/6/2019 2:08:52 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
dont need to engrave until you sell. dont take my word for it, contact a lawyer.

View Quote

See, this is why there should be a permaban for idiocy.
Despite what's written in ATF regs, Federal law and repeated ad nauseaum on AR15.....you still get people posting the "don't need to engrave until you sell" bullshit.

Posted: 3/6/2019 4:27:39 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
dont need to engrave until you sell. dont take my word for it, contact a lawyer.

View Quote

I love how this is stated as if it is fact and then immediately followed by "don't take my word for it, contact a lawyer"

This subject has been covered a gazillion times and everyone comes to the same conclusion each time.

Yes, the form 1 item has to be engraved.

No, we don't know of anyone who has been prosecuted for not engraving.

It is a free country, if you don't want to engrave, that's fine. None of us here are going to make you do it.

Posted: 3/6/2019 5:52:37 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
I have an F4 MG with the engraving on the barrel. It was originally done as an F1 by an individual. I have since replaced the barrel. I still have the old barrel. Am I supposed to re-engrave the makers info onto the new barrel?

BTW, the original makers info was engraved under the handguard. Not conspicuous.

View Quote

Your MG has to have the required markings. So yes, you need to mark the new BBL.

Posted: 5/29/2019 1:24:11 AM EDT

[#21]

... Income taxes are voluntary...

... I don't have to engrave my SBR until I sell it...

... I can make an 80% lower and sell it without a serial number

... The World is flat

... Checks' in the mail.

Posted: 5/29/2019 2:19:58 AM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
... I can make an 80% lower and sell it without a serial number

View Quote

That one's actually true, if we're discussing a non-NFA lower.

This thread is discussing a F1 SBR however.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Do you need to engrave a Form 1’ed SBR? (Page 2 of 2)

Armory » Short Barreled Rifles (SBR)

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us