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Posted: 6/30/2009 11:42:44 AM EDT
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This came up in an old post I had awhile back
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=281807&page=1 The conclusion was that the lower approved on my paperwork was out of spec, and I am expecting a replacement within 3-4 weeks. Someone from a different thread also mentioned engraving the approved serial # on the new lower. I have heard some yes's and some no's with this and havn't had it confirmed or denied with the ATF yet as I would assume they of course would say no. How many of you have, or know someone who has done this? Reason I ask is because I would prefer to do this rather than having my paperwork voided, refunded and then resubmitting. |
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Quoted: This came up in an old post I had awhile back http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=281807&page=1 The conclusion was that the lower approved on my paperwork was out of spec, and I am expecting a replacement within 3-4 weeks. Someone from a different thread also mentioned engraving the approved serial # on the new lower. I have heard some yes's and some no's with this and havn't had it confirmed or denied with the ATF yet as I would assume they of course would say no. How many of you have, or know someone who has done this? Reason I ask is because I would prefer to do this rather than having my paperwork voided, refunded and then resubmitting. Tag for answers. I don't see how it's legal. |
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just mark the reciever with the markings you listed on your form1 and you should be fine. the only difference in what you need to do now and what you origionally planned to do is that you are going to have to mark the SN insted of using the existing one.
seems very straight forward IMO. |
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One other option would be to get the form 1 back with stamp, then inform ATF that you are using a different serial number for the build. I've already received my approved form1 stamped and all. What makes you think I can just have them change the serial on the form? |
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One other option would be to get the form 1 back with stamp, then inform ATF that you are using a different serial number for the build. I've already received my approved form1 stamped and all. What makes you think I can just have them change the serial on the form? Nooooo not on the form, inform ATF and they will make the change. Don't just grab a bic pen and do it.... Just like theyd record a caliber change or length deviation, etc. Instead of cancelling and resubmitting, just have them revise it to reflect accurate information. |
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Until you make the rifle it's as if it doesn't exist. The Form 1 describes the firearm you ARE GOING TO make. As long as the firearm you ultimately make matches the description on your form, I can't see how anything improper has been done. exactly. when you make the SBR you have to fulfill the marking requirements, what you are doing is technicly no different than starting with a blank lower and doing all the markings your self. one way to fulfill the marking requirements is to use the existing markings that apply. this could be the SN and possibly the location if you are in the same location. if it is allready there then you you dont have to put it again, if its not there then you have to put it there. you are thinking too far into things at this point. but it is good that you are cautious and are looking into things. |
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The problem is that your serial number is non-arbitrary, if you had listed "001" as your serial number then your path forward would be clear as you would engrave that on whatever lower you chose to convert and then add the short barrel. Since your serial number is also the serial number of another lower, you're in a bit of a pickle as that could result in two lowers with identical serial numbers from the same manufacturer in circulation. I'd suggest calling the NFA branch and talking to them about it, you may be able to engrave the approved number on the new lower while noting the original serial number of the new lower as part of the NFA database so there is no confusion. Having it marked: "NFA S/N: ______" might not be a bad idea, but it depends what the NFA branch says.
Or they may say you're SOL and you'll have to start the process all over again while waiting for a refund. 
Kharn |
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I see both sides here but,
What if someone, ( a bad someone ) took several receivers and put the same # on all of them.....as long as the men in black never saw more than one at a time.....he's golden, but illeagal.....I dont think the BATFE would let this happen????? I'd think you'd have to take old one to FFL, have him engrave new one, give you new one and destroy old one....I'm just guessing here?? This is interesting to me because SBR'd lowers are'nt impervious to damage, wear, or mishaps. |
| Completely ignorant opinion here, but why not offer to send in the destroyed out of spec receiver that has the serial number you want to use? Or maybe pictures clearly showing the serial number and the receiver cut into 4 pieces will work. This way the BATFE will KNOW that there is only one receiver out there with that S/N. |
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Since your serial number is also the serial number of another lower, you're in a bit of a pickle as that could result in two lowers with identical serial numbers from the same manufacturer in circulation. Kharn The serial number on his Form 1 will be shown in the NFRTR with him as the maker, not the original manufacturer of the lower. In other words, there will only be one NFA firearm registered with both him as the maker and with that serial number. |
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I see both sides here but, What if someone, ( a bad someone ) took several receivers and put the same # on all of them.....as long as the men in black never saw more than one at a time.....he's golden, but illeagal.....I dont think the BATFE would let this happen????? I'd think you'd have to take old one to FFL, have him engrave new one, give you new one and destroy old one....I'm just guessing here?? This is interesting to me because SBR'd lowers are'nt impervious to damage, wear, or mishaps. This sounds right to me, have the manuf build you a new one, marked with the SN. Send them your old one let them distroy (or remark it) and send you the correct one. Documented destruction of the first with a replacement with the correct number seems the easy way. However, when glock did the .40 "upgrades" a few years ago, they did have different SN. I think it was adding an "A" or "USA" in some cases to the end of the previous SN on the new frames. |
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let me give a little input here since there are a lot of "ideas" floating around. a couple years back i form 1'd a bushmaster lower. when it was approved, i bought all my parts and slapped together my sweet new SBR. i hustled to the rangs and proceeded to blow my sparkly new rifle to bits on the second mag... KB. bigtime. evrything was destroyed. so i looked into my options. my first call was to bushmaster asking if they could make a new lower with the same serial. they couldn't [legally], which makes sense. manufacturers can't just keep churning out lowers with the same serials or there would be no traceability. secondly, a given company cannot legally remake SOMEONE ELSES title ii arm. unfortunately, but buying a title 1 gun and then *making* into a title 2 gun via a form 1, *i* was the maker of the SBR... not bushmaster. if you remember correctly, olympic arms got a pee-pee slap a couple years back for this same thing. they were remaking M16's that had been converted by third parties on their recievers. the ATF told them to stop for this very reason. while the AR15 lowers were made by oly, the M16's weren't, therefore they couldn't remake them. (this is why i can't believe there has been so much back-and-forth about the "gem-tax". it has NEVER been legal to remake someone elses title ii equipment...) so, my next thought was getting a new lower and ammending the serial to reflect the new serial. i called the ATF on several occasions and talked to several people. the consensus was the same; while you can ammend your forms to reflect certain changes, you cannot just ammend the form to reflect a new lower. the reason given was literally, "...well, if you could do that, people could just buy new lowers and have it forever..." remember, the ATF WANTS you locked in. they want weapons to get old, wear out, and break. they aren't there to help you make sure you have a new gun until the day you die. i ended up getting my reps involved and even that yielded no results. so, if your form 1 has already been approved, here is my opinion based on experience. you have already MADE a title ii weapon. the filing of the form 1 IS the "making". as such, nobody else would be able to re-make a new lower for you with the same serial. the forms cannot be ammended so that a new lower may be added in place of the old, and i highly suspect the ATF would not look kindly on scratching the serial of one gun on to another and calling it good. there have been reams of people who've gotten in trouble for using the serial of a machinegun to build another. it sucks, but i'd cut my losses, cancel your stamp, and get a new set of forms in ASAP. 
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so, if your form 1 has already been approved, here is my opinion based on experience. you have already MADE a title ii weapon. the filing of the form 1 IS the "making". No. "Make" is defined legally: Make. This term and the various derivatives thereof shall include
manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under this part), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a [NFA] firearm. The Form 1 is an "Application to Make and Register a Firearm." Obviously, according to the law, "making" and "registering" are separate acts. |
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The problem is that your serial number is non-arbitrary, if you had listed "001" as your serial number then your path forward would be clear as you would engrave that on whatever lower you chose to convert and then add the short barrel. Since your serial number is also the serial number of another lower, you're in a bit of a pickle as that could result in two lowers with identical serial numbers from the same manufacturer in circulation. actually it will result in two lowers from different manufacturers/makers having the same SN. I am sure that there are many many AR15 lowers from different manufacturers/makers with the same SN. If this was not the case then you would hear of a lot of people having the SN rejected due to it being a duplicate. think of how many people have started with SN 001 or whatever number. each manufacturer/maker can not duplicate SNs that they have used in the past. |
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Quoted: Quoted: The problem is that your serial number is non-arbitrary, if you had listed "001" as your serial number then your path forward would be clear as you would engrave that on whatever lower you chose to convert and then add the short barrel. Since your serial number is also the serial number of another lower, you're in a bit of a pickle as that could result in two lowers with identical serial numbers from the same manufacturer in circulation. actually it will result in two lowers from different manufacturers/makers having the same SN. I am sure that there are many many AR15 lowers from different manufacturers/makers with the same SN. If this was not the case then you would hear of a lot of people having the SN rejected due to it being a duplicate. think of how many people have started with SN 001 or whatever number. each manufacturer/maker can not duplicate SNs that they have used in the past. Go look at most AR serial numbers and they include a manufacturer code as well. I think you are giving this guy some very bad advice, and I hope that I'm wrong about that. Using your logic, what's to stop me from engraving an approved serial number on all my lowers? The one he originally submitted paperwork against IS going to be registered and a legal SBR (if he assembles it.) You don't really think he can scratch the serial number into a second lower and use it instead, do you? |
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I see what kc is saying, as when I talked to SDI they informed me they were in contact with the ATF and that I could get my $200 refund as long as I hadn't MADE it.
It appears to me that I can clearly do this. I still think I should talk to the ATF and ask, as well as show the validity of this. What do you think? |
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so, my next thought was getting a new lower and ammending the serial to reflect the new serial. i called the ATF on several occasions and talked to several people. the consensus was the same; while you can ammend your forms to reflect certain changes, you cannot just ammend the form to reflect a new lower. the reason given was literally, "...well, if you could do that, people could just buy new lowers and have it forever..."
it sounds liek you did not talk to them abotu using the old SN (remaking the gun) secondly, a given company cannot legally remake SOMEONE ELSES title ii arm. unfortunately, but buying a title 1 gun and then *making* into a title 2 gun via a form 1, *i* was the maker of the SBR... not bushmaster.
what did they say about remaking their own? so, if your form 1 has already been approved, here is my opinion based on experience. you have already MADE a title ii weapon. the filing of the form 1 IS the "making". as such, nobody else would be able to re-make a new lower for you with the same serial. the forms cannot be ammended so that a new lower may be added in place of the old, and i highly suspect the ATF would not look kindly on scratching the serial of one gun on to another and calling it good. there have been reams of people who've gotten in trouble for using the serial of a machinegun to build another.
remaking a MG is a bit different than remaking an SBR you talked about manuf. and makers not being able to remake someone elses firearms and you talked to them about amending your forms to reflect a new SN. you then assumed that manuf. and makers were not allowed to remake a firearm that has been destroyed. That is what I would have looked into. can you remake your own title2 firearm if one is destroyed (excluding transferable MGs) I am not 100% sure on that... It would be very easy to get another lower and put the required markings from your form 1 on it and treat it like the origional one you made. Again am not sure of the legalities of that but If you were to do that I would make sure the old one was properly destroyed. your case is not exactly like his though, you are remaking a firearm, he has not made one yet. |
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Quoted: I see what kc is saying, as when I talked to SDI they informed me they were in contact with the ATF and that I could get my $200 refund as long as I hadn't MADE it. It appears to me that I can clearly do this. I still think I should talk to the ATF and ask, as well as show the validity of this. What do you think? As I said in my first post –– there is no doubt that you can get a refund on your SBR for the bad lower if you haven't assembled it yet. That point has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads. Where I think the advice went wrong here is in telling you to just remark another lower. I think that's bad advice and I think it's asking for trouble. I'd really love to be proven wrong on this though. |
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[Using your logic, what's to stop me from engraving an approved serial number on all my lowers? Other than the fact that that's illegal? I mean, I could explain that you will have committed obvious tax evasion and made several unregistered NFA firearms, but that would be obvious. The one he originally submitted paperwork against IS going to be registered and a legal SBR (if he assembles it.) You don't really think he can scratch the serial number into a second lower and use it instead, do you?
Yes, but until he does assemble it with the SBR upper, it's nothing as far as the NFA is concerned, which is why he could get a refund if he never assembles it. All the Form 1 does is describe the NFA firearm HE IS GOING TO MAKE. There is no mind-meld connection made between the parts he was planning on using and the theoretical (having not yet been made) firearm described on his form, thus there is no reason why cannot then use other parts as long as they conform to what's on the form. |
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The problem is that your serial number is non-arbitrary, if you had listed "001" as your serial number then your path forward would be clear as you would engrave that on whatever lower you chose to convert and then add the short barrel. Since your serial number is also the serial number of another lower, you're in a bit of a pickle as that could result in two lowers with identical serial numbers from the same manufacturer in circulation. actually it will result in two lowers from different manufacturers/makers having the same SN. I am sure that there are many many AR15 lowers from different manufacturers/makers with the same SN. If this was not the case then you would hear of a lot of people having the SN rejected due to it being a duplicate. think of how many people have started with SN 001 or whatever number. each manufacturer/maker can not duplicate SNs that they have used in the past. Go look at most AR serial numbers and they include a manufacturer code as well. I think you are giving this guy some very bad advice, and I hope that I'm wrong about that. Using your logic, what's to stop me from engraving an approved serial number on all my lowers? The one he originally submitted paperwork against IS going to be registered and a legal SBR (if he assembles it.) You don't really think he can scratch the serial number into a second lower and use it instead, do you? have you ever heard of anyone submitting a form1 and it being returned because someone else allready had that SN? Using your logic, what's to stop me from engraving an approved serial number on all my lowers?
that is clearly against the law. you or another maker/manufacturer can not make a bunch of firearms with the same SN. I dont see how you think my logic is sayign you can. The one he originally submitted paperwork against IS going to be registered and a legal SBR (if he assembles it.) You don't really think he can scratch the serial number into a second lower and use it instead, do you?
2nd lower? there has not been a 1st, he has not made it yet. HE has been approved to make a SBR with SN XXX. he can make it on whatever lower he wants. He is not locked into using the lower that SDI made using the same SN, I believe this should clear up any confusion about different manufacturers/makers using the same SN. lets say colt makes an AR15 with SN 001. you then take that lower and decide to make (or manufacture if you are an 07/02) a SBR. you submit a form1 using SN 001. this is VERY common and is approved all the time. this is an example of 2 different makers making 2 firearms with the same SN. colt made and AR15 with SN 001 and then you made a SBR with SN 001. the fact that the second one was made from the first is not relevent (the ATF does not know what the SBR is made from) |
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I see what kc is saying, as when I talked to SDI they informed me they were in contact with the ATF and that I could get my $200 refund as long as I hadn't MADE it. It appears to me that I can clearly do this. I still think I should talk to the ATF and ask, as well as show the validity of this. What do you think? As I said in my first post –– there is no doubt that you can get a refund on your SBR for the bad lower if you haven't assembled it yet. That point has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads. Where I think the advice went wrong here is in telling you to just remark another lower. I think that's bad advice and I think it's asking for trouble. I'd really love to be proven wrong on this though. there will be no remark. he has not marked one yet. it sounds liek you are looking at this more like the remaking example that was talked about. he has been approved to make a SBR with SN XXX. he has not done so yet. He can now go ahead and do so with whatever lower he wants as long as it is in line withthe info on his form 1. he can start with a blank 80% lower and make one that only has his markings on it or he can buy an existing lower and add the needed marking. most people go the latter route and choose to use an existing lower that has the same SN as the SBR they are going to make so that they do not have to mark a new number. you are not required to do this and he is not able to do this now. he will have to pick a different lower and do a full marking just like he would have to do if he was making it from scratch what do you not agree with? |
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so, if your form 1 has already been approved, here is my opinion based on experience. you have already MADE a title ii weapon. the filing of the form 1 IS the "making". No. "Make" is defined legally: Make. This term and the various derivatives thereof shall include
manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under this part), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a [NFA] firearm. The Form 1 is an "Application to Make and Register a Firearm." Obviously, according to the law, "making" and "registering" are separate acts. i'm perfectly aware of what the law "says". however, the ATF "interprets" what they want, when they want, how they want. i was just giving my *opinion*, based on my experience, where i actually had to go through something sililar to what the OP did. |
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i'm perfectly aware of what the law "says". however, the ATF "interprets" what they want, when they want, how they want. i was just giving my *opinion*, based on my experience, where i actually had to go through something sililar to what the OP did. That's fine, I was just disagreeing with your opinion and providing some support for my disagreement. Either way, your experience is not analogous to the original poster's. |
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he has been approved to make a SBR with SN XXX. he has not done so yet. He can now go ahead and do so with whatever lower he wants. he can start with a blank 80% lower and make one that only has his markings on it or he can buy an existing lower and add the needed marking. most people go the latter route and choose to use an existing lower that has the same SN as the SBR they are going to make so that they do not have to mark a new number. you are not required to do this and he is not able to do this now. he will have to pick a different lower and do a full marking just like he would have to do if he was making it from scratch what do you not agree with? I'm not sure I would go that far. His approved Form 1 lists SDI as the original manufacturer of the lower/firearm he is going to use. There is nothing on the Form 1 which makes someone declare whether the serial number used was applied by the maker or it was an existing one coming from the original manufacturer, so I don't see a problem with using another SDI lower, marking his own serial number to match the form and putting the factory-marked serial number in 4h. Using a lower from another manufacturer from that listed on the approved Form 1 I think is pushing it, since the description on the form wouldn't match the gun. |
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he has been approved to make a SBR with SN XXX. he has not done so yet. He can now go ahead and do so with whatever lower he wants. he can start with a blank 80% lower and make one that only has his markings on it or he can buy an existing lower and add the needed marking. most people go the latter route and choose to use an existing lower that has the same SN as the SBR they are going to make so that they do not have to mark a new number. you are not required to do this and he is not able to do this now. he will have to pick a different lower and do a full marking just like he would have to do if he was making it from scratch what do you not agree with? I'm not sure I would go that far. His approved Form 1 lists SDI as the original manufacturer of the lower/firearm he is going to use. There is nothing on the Form 1 which makes someone declare whether the serial number used was applied by the maker or it was an existing one coming from the original manufacturer, so I don't see a problem with using another SDI lower, marking his own serial number to match the form and putting the factory-marked serial number in 4h. Using a lower from another manufacturer from that listed on the approved Form 1 I think is pushing it, since the description on the form wouldn't match the gun. edited: i think an important thing will be what he listed in 4a. If he left it blank then he can go with other manufacturers. I have seen forms go throughblank and listing the origional manufacturer.. (i edited the quote to better reflect this) i think we may want to hear what he put in 4a to see what he can do abotu it. leave 4h blank |
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You people are giving him all kinds of bad advice. It does not make a difference if he EVER puts a short upper on the approved lower. Once they put the stamp on the Form1 the lower IS A REGISTERED SBR. That has been told to me by a few examiners at the NFA Branch Of BATFE. I had a Kahr Thompson that I wanted to sell as a title 1 rifle (sold it for more than I paid including the tax stamp) as I got my tax stamp on a Form1 to SBR it but never got around to finishing the project. I talked to a few at BATFE about how to sell it when I NEVER PUT A SHORT BARREL ON IT. They all said it was considered an SBR the minute they put the stamp on my Form1. I sent them a letter stating it never had a short barrel on it and they AMMENDED the NFA Registry. They NEVER REMOVE and item from the registry but rather AMMEND it. I was able to sell the Title1 rifle when I got a response letter from them. If you take a "clean" lower that does not have any manufacturers serial number (don't know if you can even find a manufacturer to do that) and engrave the number of the out of spec lower on it, you have just made a counterfit receiver as the first receiver has already been recorded (with both the BATFE and on a 4473 form).
MadDog 
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You people are giving him all kinds of bad advice. It does not make a difference if he EVER puts a short upper on the approved lower. Once they put the stamp on the Form1 the lower IS A REGISTERED SBR. That has been told to me by a few examiners at the NFA Branch Of BATFE. I had a Kahr Thompson that I wanted to sell as a title 1 rifle (sold it for more than I paid including the tax stamp) as I got my tax stamp on a Form1 to SBR it but never got around to finishing the project. I talked to a few at BATFE about how to sell it when I NEVER PUT A SHORT BARREL ON IT. They all said it was considered an SBR the minute they put the stamp on my Form1. I sent them a letter stating it never had a short barrel on it and they AMMENDED the NFA Registry. They NEVER REMOVE and item from the registry but rather AMMEND it. I was able to sell the Title1 rifle when I got a response letter from them. If you take a "clean" lower that does not have any manufacturers serial number (don't know if you can even find a manufacturer to do that) and engrave the number of the out of spec lower on it, you have just made a counterfit receiver as the first receiver has already been recorded (with both the BATFE and on a 4473 form). MadDog I asked you in another thread, how is it possible to get a refund for your $200 if you never make the registered firearm, if the firearm is "made" when the form is approved? Section 6.8 Withdrawal or Cancellation of an ATF Form 1 and Refund of Making Tax. The Form
1 applicant may withdraw the application by submitting a request, in writing, to the Chief, NFA Branch. The applicant may also cancel an approved Form 1 application by submitting a request, in writing, to the Chief, NFA Branch. The request for cancellation must state that the firearm was not made and must include the approved Form 1 with the stamp affixed. The NFA Branch will amend the NFRTR to reflect the withdrawal or cancellation of the application and arrange for the refund of the making tax. A request for cancellation may only be done if the firearm has not already been manufactured. If the firearm is made, the tax liability is incurred and the applicant cannot seek a cancellation http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter6.pdf You should have asked for your $200 back. |
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You people are giving him all kinds of bad advice. It does not make a difference if he EVER puts a short upper on the approved lower. Once they put the stamp on the Form1 the lower IS A REGISTERED SBR. That has been told to me by a few examiners at the NFA Branch Of BATFE. I had a Kahr Thompson that I wanted to sell as a title 1 rifle (sold it for more than I paid including the tax stamp) as I got my tax stamp on a Form1 to SBR it but never got around to finishing the project. I talked to a few at BATFE about how to sell it when I NEVER PUT A SHORT BARREL ON IT. They all said it was considered an SBR the minute they put the stamp on my Form1. I sent them a letter stating it never had a short barrel on it and they AMMENDED the NFA Registry. They NEVER REMOVE and item from the registry but rather AMMEND it. I was able to sell the Title1 rifle when I got a response letter from them. If you take a "clean" lower that does not have any manufacturers serial number (don't know if you can even find a manufacturer to do that) and engrave the number of the out of spec lower on it, you have just made a counterfit receiver as the first receiver has already been recorded (with both the BATFE and on a 4473 form). MadDog incorrect. if there is no lower with the markings specified on teh form 1 then you have not made a SBR yet. you just have approval to make said SBR. if you have 5 colt lowers and you send off a form 1 stating you are going to make a SBR on a colt lower and its SN is going to be "coltsucks69" and you get your form back approved then according to you , you have an SBR lower. which one is it then? none are SBRs since the SBR has not been made yet. |
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FWIW.....
My experience in this situation: ––If you have a Form 1 pending (not yet approved), you may be able to change the SN of the host. In theory it should be something you can look up in a law book, but in reality it depends on your examiner –– federal law gives them a lot of flexability, and there is not much you can do about it except ask nicely/beg/plead with them. ––If you have a Form 1 that has been approved but you have not yet "made" the SBR by assembling it into a rifle which meets the legal definition of an SBR, see the previous graf –– again, it depends on ATF. If the time between approval and your inquiry is less than a year or so, the odds increase that you can make the change. Most commonly, you can get them to agree to void the F1, refund your $$$ (in six-12 months), and you can resubmit a new F1. ––If you have a Form 1 which has been approved and you have posted on the internet that you assembled ("made") it and it did not function, then you are up the creek. Really, you do not want to go here –– just bite the bullet and do it all over. 
––If you have a Form 1 which has been approved but it was a coupla years ago, and you have not yet "made" the Title 1 host into an NFA item, you will get neither a refund nor any help in changing the SN. While in theory an "unmade" receiver should remain forever so, in reality, after enough time has passed, ATF assumes the action has been completed, and you're fighting an uphill battle. Again, none of the above is anything you can research in federal law. If you disagree with these policies, you have the right to challenge them in federal court, as long as you have a coupla hundred $$$k to pay your attorneys. Otherwise, eat the loss of the $200 tax and the $100 cost for a new lower. Yeah, it sucks. No one said life would be fair.
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but you cant use sn "coltsucks69"
box 4g on ATF form 1 says "Serial Number (see instruction 2i)" instruction 2i says: "Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 41. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number. If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g." Since a lower receiver is an existing firearm, since it already has a serial number and is registered, you cant make up your own serial number "coltsucks69". Instead you have to fill out the form with the serial number from the lower. |
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Since a lower receiver is an existing firearm, since it already has a serial number and is registered, you cant make up your own serial number "coltsucks69". Instead you have to fill out the form with the serial number from the lower. Well, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you there. You cannot alter or remove the existing serial number of the host firearm. But while ATF would prefer that you use the existing serial number, you are legally allowed to add a second serial number when you are "making" it into an NFA firearm via a Form 1 or Form 2, and to list it on the Form 1/2 under the new, second SN. That has been completely acceptable to ATF for the last oh, I dunno, 40 or 50 years. I know of no law/rule/reg that has changed the situation since then. Now, most of my one-offs have SNs that started with initials and are usually followed by 001, 002, etc. But those are in addition to the SNs of the hosts. And it has been accepted for my guns during several ATF audits of the 07/02 manufacturers.
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Quoted:
tony, so you would agree that I would be in the clear to have the approved serial engraved on the new lower that I will receive? No –– in fact, I would say the exact opposite. My response to ak's post was to make the point that an NFA firearm may legally have two different serial numbers –– one assigned by the host manufacturer, the second by the NFA maker or manufacturer –– but in your case, they will both be SNs in the range issued by SDI. And that is going to raise eyebrows at ATF, because both SNs must be listed on the Form 1 or Form 2 (the host manufacturer's SN goes in 4h). Buying another receiver and moving the SN of the Form 1'd receiver onto it is not, in my opinion, going to fly with ATF. Your only recourse is to void the Form 1, apply for a refund (which will take 6 months or a year to get to you), and resubmit a new Form 1 for a new receiver. The bottom line here is that SDI screwed up, and SDI must make it right. You need to put the ball back in their court –– up to and including small claims court, if it comes to that. They owe you for a receiver, and for the financial damage ($200 NFA tax) incurred when you, in good faith, registered their receiver as an NFA item. It's the same as if you bought an out-of-spec upper from them, mounted a $200 optic on it, and on the first shot it failed and destroyed the optic: It is their responsibility. Letting them dodge that responsibility and, instead, taking an action which ATF has told you is not legal, is foolhardy. If a store overcharges you or makes an error that costs you $200, you don't walk into that store with a gun and demand your money back, right? Instead, ya take them to court. Because a civil wrong is never justification for a criminal act. I would put the ball back in SDI's court. Talk to them, explain the situation and the $$$ (and the time) you are out due to their error. |
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Quoted:
I know, I should have asked for my $200 back but that was a few years ago and I didn't know that I was entitled to that money back then. I made out ok as I sold the Kahr Thompson for more than what I paid including the cost of the stamp. MadDog  Then how would it have been possible for you to get a refund on a NFA firearm you never made, if, as you contend, a firearm is made by the approval of the registration form? |
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Quoted:
––If you have a Form 1 which has been approved and you have posted on the internet that you assembled ("made") it and it did not function, then you are up the creek. Really, you do not want to go here –– just bite the bullet and do it all over.
Assembling the lower is an irrelelvant act in this process. Had he assembled the entire SBR I would agree with you. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
tony, so you would agree that I would be in the clear to have the approved serial engraved on the new lower that I will receive? No –– in fact, I would say the exact opposite. My response to ak's post was to make the point that an NFA firearm may legally have two different serial numbers –– one assigned by the host manufacturer, the second by the NFA maker or manufacturer –– but in your case, they will both be SNs in the range issued by SDI. And that is going to raise eyebrows at ATF, because both SNs must be listed on the Form 1 or Form 2 (the host manufacturer's SN goes in 4h). The added serial number will be tied to the OP as the maker. Can you elaborate on how this will raise eyebrows at ATF? I'm having a hard time understanding that. |
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Quoted: My response to ak's post was to make the point that an NFA firearm may legally have two different serial numbers –– one assigned by the host manufacturer, the second by the NFA maker or manufacturer –– but in your case, they will both be SNs in the range issued by SDI. And that is going to raise eyebrows at ATF, because both SNs must be listed on the Form 1 or Form 2 (the host manufacturer's SN goes in 4h). And this is the reason that I feel the advice given here is awful. It's not like you're coming up with your own serial number. See my comment about the manufacturer codes commonly part of serial numbers. I really think you're asking for trouble by marking a second lower with a serial number from another lower made by the same manufacturer. I think at the least the ATF may decide you are trying to double dip by having two lowers on one stamp. Think of it this way –– if you were an ATF investigator and you found both receivers –– how would you decide which one is the legal SBR? Just get a refund and register another lower if you want to sleep well at night. |
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Quoted: The added serial number will be tied to the OP as the maker. Can you elaborate on how this will raise eyebrows at ATF? I'm having a hard time understanding that. It will also be tied to the original manufacturer, who incidentally stamped their logo and that serial number on a second receiver...which is also in the OP's possession. Which one is the SBR? Don't tell me that the additional engraving distinguishes it. The ATF's looking for a lower made by X manufacturer with Y serial number. I'm not the type who believes that 'additional markings' is going to be a clear enough distinction here. You're right that he's allowed to serialize one when he makes an SBR, but I think reusing the manufacturer's number from a second receiver he owns would be a stupid thing to do. Guys, don't play games with the alphabet soup people. |
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Quoted: Quoted: [Using your logic, what's to stop me from engraving an approved serial number on all my lowers? Other than the fact that that's illegal? I mean, I could explain that you will have committed obvious tax evasion and made several unregistered NFA firearms, but that would be obvious. You're missing my point –– or not. Yes, it's clearly illegal. Now, is it so clear to the ATF man, when he finds both lowers, that the OP was NOT doing as I describe above in order to avoid paying a second stamp? |
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Just to clarify if their is any confusion
Tony: SDI has told me they are sending me a new lower, it apparently should be here in 3-4 weeks. If I'm entitled to a refund by the ATF what would be the purpose in taking them to small claims court? OrinTX: When you were referring to the ATF finding multiple receivers were you speaking in regards to the example that someone gave? Just curious, due to the fact would only have 1. I didn't think you were referring to my situation. |
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