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4/20/2014 5:13:07 PM EDT
Does someone have one, preferably non Quicken, that they would be willing to share with me?
4/20/2014 6:16:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Link
4/21/2014 10:45:21 AM EDT
[#2]
Appears to be a generic trust rather than a 'nfa/firearms specific trust'?

I just skimmed it but does it include language on what happens when someone in the trust is no longer able to legally possess or use NFA items, forms to designate co-trustees, successor trustees, heirs, forms to add/revoke co-trustees, who can sell the items etc.

From everything I've read which has been pretty extensive it boils down to, the BATFE aren't lawyers, they don't really care what kind of trust you send them and I've seen samples that were extremely generic to the point of "I wrote this in crayon" type level. Only that your form 4 matches the trust and that the trust seems reasonably 'legal looking'.

Not to shill for any one company but I bought a NFA/Firerarms specific trust from here that is NFA specific and state specific if your particular state varies in their revocable trust laws and included a fully filled out set of forms along with blank forms.   From my non-lawyer'ee point of view it was extremely inclusive, included a letter to give to my bank on how to open the trust account in the name of the trust.   Includes the long format (you send to the BATFE) and the short form (you file with your bank or to put it into public record if you wish or your state requires it).  All in all the main document is 23 pages of legalese.    Stuff like "No Trustee shall be entitled to compensation for acting as a Trustee." is in there.  

Here's just the 'definitions' section which the lawyers say you have to have -


2.D.Definitions. For any interpretation of this Trust Agreement, the following definitions shall apply:

(1)BATFE. The term “BATFE” shall refer to the "Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives”.
(2)Beneficiary. The term “beneficiary” or “beneficiaries” shall mean any person whose right to receive assets from the trust is currently vested;
(3)Cease to Act. The phrase "cease to act" shall mean the resignation, death, incapacity or disappearance of a Trustee;
(4)Code. Any reference to the “Code” shall refer to the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended, and to any regulations pertaining to the referenced sections;
(5)Descendants. The term “descendants” shall include a person's lineal descendants of all generations;
(6)Disappearance. The term “disappearance” shall mean the individual's whereabouts remain unknown for a period of sixty (60) days. If any beneficiary (including me) is not seen or heard of for a period of one year and no physical remains or body has been recovered, it shall be presumed that such beneficiary is not alive;
(7)Firearm. The term “firearm” shall mean a device from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder or the energy of another explosive and shall include rifles, guns, handguns and any accessory which may become part of the device.
(8)Incapacity.
(a)In the case of a question or dispute, incapacitation of a Trustee (whether such Trustee shall be me or a successor) shall be evidenced by written certification of two (2) physicians that the individual is unable to effectively manage his or her own property or financial affairs, whether as a result of age, illness, use of prescription medications, drugs or other substances, or any other cause;
(b)If there is no question or dispute, incapacitation of a Trustee shall be established by the written declaration of only one doctor;
(c)An individual shall be deemed restored to capacity whenever the individual's personal or attending physician provides a written opinion that the individual is able to effectively manage his or her own property and financial affairs; and,
(d)An individual shall be deemed incapacitated if a court of competent jurisdiction has declared the individual to be incompetent or legally incapacitated. If an individual fails to grant the court making such determination valid authorization to disclose the person's protected health information under any applicable federal and/or state statute, or if the person subsequently revokes such authority, the individual shall be deemed incapacitated;
(9)Issue. The term “issue” shall refer to lineal descendants of all degrees and shall include adopted persons; provided however, that such term shall refer only to the issue of lawful marriages and illegitimate children only if a parent/child relationship existed between such child and his or her parent, living or deceased, as determined under Oklahoma law. A child in gestation which is later born alive and survives for thirty (30) days shall be considered as issue in being throughout the period of gestation;
(10)Licensed Dealer. The phrase “licensed dealer” shall mean an individual or a company engaged in the business of the interstate and/or intrastate sale of firearms and who holds an appropriate Federal Firearms License issued pursuant to the “Gun Control Act of 1968” (44 U.S.C. ch. 18) for the type of firearm being sold (i.e., Class I or Class III).
(11)NFA. The term “NFA” shall refer to the “National Firearms Act”, as defined in 26 U.S.C. ch. 53.
(12)Per Stirpes. Whenever a distribution is to be made “per stirpes”, the assets are to be divided into as many shares as there are then-living children and deceased children who left living descendants. Each living child shall receive one share and each deceased child's share shall be divided among such deceased child's then-living descendants in the same manner;
(13)Prohibited Person. The phrase “prohibited person” means any person who is prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm by any state and/or federal law, statute or regulation; specifically including the Gun Control Act of 1968 (44 U.S.C. ch. 18).
(14)Pronouns and Gender. In this Trust Agreement, the feminine, masculine or neuter gender, and the singular or plural number, shall be deemed to include the others whenever the context so indicates;
(15)Restricted Firearms. The phrase “restricted firearm” or “restricted firearms” shall refer to any Title II Firearm (as hereinafter defined) as well as any other firearm the ownership, possession and/or transfer of which is regulated by any state and/or local jurisdiction in which the trust is situated.
(16)State Law, Statute or Regulation. The phrase “state law, statute or regulation” shall mean the laws, statutes or regulations of the State of Oklahoma and the laws, statutes or regulations of any other state and/or local jurisdiction which regulates the ownership, possession and/or transfer of any firearm owned by the trust within that state and/or jurisdiction.
(17)Title II Firearms. The phrase “Title II Firearm” shall refer to those firearms whose ownership, possession and/or transfers are regulated by the NFA (also referred to as “Class 3 Firearms” and “Class III Firearms”).
(18)Trustee. Any reference to “Trustee” shall be deemed to refer to whichever individual, individuals (including me) or corporation shall then be acting as the Trustee.


4/25/2014 5:50:16 PM EDT
[#3]

Quote History
Quoted:


Appears to be a generic trust rather than a 'nfa/firearms specific trust'?



I just skimmed it but does it include language on what happens when someone in the trust is no longer able to legally possess or use NFA items, forms to designate co-trustees, successor trustees, heirs, forms to add/revoke co-trustees, who can sell the items etc.



From everything I've read which has been pretty extensive it boils down to, the BATFE aren't lawyers, they don't really care what kind of trust you send them and I've seen samples that were extremely generic to the point of "I wrote this in crayon" type level. Only that your form 4 matches the trust and that the trust seems reasonably 'legal looking'.



Not to shill for any one company but I bought a NFA/Firerarms specific trust from here that is NFA specific and state specific if your particular state varies in their revocable trust laws and included a fully filled out set of forms along with blank forms.   From my non-lawyer'ee point of view it was extremely inclusive, included a letter to give to my bank on how to open the trust account in the name of the trust.   Includes the long format (you send to the BATFE) and the short form (you file with your bank or to put it into public record if you wish or your state requires it).  All in all the main document is 23 pages of legalese.    Stuff like "No Trustee shall be entitled to compensation for acting as a Trustee." is in there.  



Here's just the 'definitions' section which the lawyers say you have to have -







2.D.Definitions. For any interpretation of this Trust Agreement, the following definitions shall apply:



(1)BATFE. The term "BATFE” shall refer to the "Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives”.

(2)Beneficiary. The term "beneficiary” or "beneficiaries” shall mean any person whose right to receive assets from the trust is currently vested;

(3)Cease to Act. The phrase "cease to act" shall mean the resignation, death, incapacity or disappearance of a Trustee;

(4)Code. Any reference to the "Code” shall refer to the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended, and to any regulations pertaining to the referenced sections;

(5)Descendants. The term "descendants” shall include a person's lineal descendants of all generations;

(6)Disappearance. The term "disappearance” shall mean the individual's whereabouts remain unknown for a period of sixty (60) days. If any beneficiary (including me) is not seen or heard of for a period of one year and no physical remains or body has been recovered, it shall be presumed that such beneficiary is not alive;

(7)Firearm. The term "firearm” shall mean a device from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder or the energy of another explosive and shall include rifles, guns, handguns and any accessory which may become part of the device.

(8)Incapacity.

(a)In the case of a question or dispute, incapacitation of a Trustee (whether such Trustee shall be me or a successor) shall be evidenced by written certification of two (2) physicians that the individual is unable to effectively manage his or her own property or financial affairs, whether as a result of age, illness, use of prescription medications, drugs or other substances, or any other cause;

(b)If there is no question or dispute, incapacitation of a Trustee shall be established by the written declaration of only one doctor;

(c)An individual shall be deemed restored to capacity whenever the individual's personal or attending physician provides a written opinion that the individual is able to effectively manage his or her own property and financial affairs; and,

(d)An individual shall be deemed incapacitated if a court of competent jurisdiction has declared the individual to be incompetent or legally incapacitated. If an individual fails to grant the court making such determination valid authorization to disclose the person's protected health information under any applicable federal and/or state statute, or if the person subsequently revokes such authority, the individual shall be deemed incapacitated;

(9)Issue. The term "issue” shall refer to lineal descendants of all degrees and shall include adopted persons; provided however, that such term shall refer only to the issue of lawful marriages and illegitimate children only if a parent/child relationship existed between such child and his or her parent, living or deceased, as determined under Oklahoma law. A child in gestation which is later born alive and survives for thirty (30) days shall be considered as issue in being throughout the period of gestation;

(10)Licensed Dealer. The phrase "licensed dealer” shall mean an individual or a company engaged in the business of the interstate and/or intrastate sale of firearms and who holds an appropriate Federal Firearms License issued pursuant to the "Gun Control Act of 1968” (44 U.S.C. ch. 18) for the type of firearm being sold (i.e., Class I or Class III).

(11)NFA. The term "NFA” shall refer to the "National Firearms Act”, as defined in 26 U.S.C. ch. 53.

(12)Per Stirpes. Whenever a distribution is to be made "per stirpes”, the assets are to be divided into as many shares as there are then-living children and deceased children who left living descendants. Each living child shall receive one share and each deceased child's share shall be divided among such deceased child's then-living descendants in the same manner;

(13)Prohibited Person. The phrase "prohibited person” means any person who is prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm by any state and/or federal law, statute or regulation; specifically including the Gun Control Act of 1968 (44 U.S.C. ch. 18).

(14)Pronouns and Gender. In this Trust Agreement, the feminine, masculine or neuter gender, and the singular or plural number, shall be deemed to include the others whenever the context so indicates;

(15)Restricted Firearms. The phrase "restricted firearm” or "restricted firearms” shall refer to any Title II Firearm (as hereinafter defined) as well as any other firearm the ownership, possession and/or transfer of which is regulated by any state and/or local jurisdiction in which the trust is situated.

(16)State Law, Statute or Regulation. The phrase "state law, statute or regulation” shall mean the laws, statutes or regulations of the State of Oklahoma and the laws, statutes or regulations of any other state and/or local jurisdiction which regulates the ownership, possession and/or transfer of any firearm owned by the trust within that state and/or jurisdiction.

(17)Title II Firearms. The phrase "Title II Firearm” shall refer to those firearms whose ownership, possession and/or transfers are regulated by the NFA (also referred to as "Class 3 Firearms” and "Class III Firearms”).

(18)Trustee. Any reference to "Trustee” shall be deemed to refer to whichever individual, individuals (including me) or corporation shall then be acting as the Trustee.
View Quote




Hate to break it to you, but there is no requirement to have definitions in your trust. Doesn't hurt, but isn't required.

 



Trusts are creatures of state law, so as long as your trust is valid in your state, it's valid for NFA purposes.
4/26/2014 7:26:07 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote History
Quoted:
Hate to break it to you, but there is no requirement to have definitions in your trust. Doesn't hurt, but isn't required.  

Trusts are creatures of state law, so as long as your trust is valid in your state, it's valid for NFA purposes.
View Quote


Totally agree, just saying what certain online nfa lawyer sites like to post on forums and like I said the BATFE appears to be unlikely to ever refuse a trust filing based on the trust, rather it's mistakes on their forms that get you kicked back.

I do think it's important that your trust does have clear 'lawyer' language, as much as that can be clear at times, to indicate what happens to the items in the trust in the event of certain situations arising.  But, the kicker is, how much energy, effort or money you put into that is how much do you care what happens to them if you can't have them anymore?  If you care a lot then worry about the language of the trust in terms of co-trustee, successor trustee, beneficiaries, if you don't care as much (remember the most likely situation is you're going be dead for it to come up) then don't sweat it.  Other than making sure it's a legal trust for your particular state laws.  

Or if you don't trust your co-trustees then having it spelled out in the trust that it takes a majority signature to sell or dispose of items in the trust rather than a single signature.   Or if you don't trust your successor trustee not to bump you off to take ownership.  

From what I've read most valid trusts will work in most states but some states are a little more persnickety.  I've read  (from Random Internet Dude) there are one or more states where the trust has be a matter of public record, the short form which doesn't list the inventory etc so you have to file it with your county clerk or whatever.
4/27/2014 7:01:17 AM EDT
[#5]
My trust makes no mention of any thing firearm related and has worked with out issue for 4 stamps so far.
4/27/2014 9:20:37 AM EDT
[#6]
Nah, I paid for mine.


4/27/2014 10:11:50 AM EDT
[#7]
199trust.com is only $99, and its written for NFA.

Have 4 cans on it already.

4/27/2014 1:57:41 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote History
Quoted:
199trust.com is only $99, and its written for NFA.

Have 4 cans on it already.

View Quote


I rolled my own. Started with the Maryland shooter template linked above and customized it to my specific needs.

That said, $99 seems pretty reasonable to me for what is essentially a boilerplate document. Never heard of these guys before and would definitely perform due diligence before purchasing to make certain they are attorneys, etc. Basically $100 is pretty cheap peace of mind.

Found this on the website:" Please note that 199trust.com cannot and will not give legal advice, We are not a law firm, it is up to the individual to determine their eligibility."

Guess they are just some guys customizing paperwork for you....
5/9/2014 11:02:31 PM EDT
[#9]
I used $199 Trust. Luckily it only cost $99. It was very quick and easy. No problems with the trust. I cruised over to my local bank. Had the paperwork witnessed and notarized. No questions or problems yet.
5/10/2014 4:55:02 AM EDT
[#10]
I used nfafirearmstrust.com. I have a SBR stamp on it currently.
5/10/2014 5:16:15 AM EDT
[#11]
Here is the one I used

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5JgEhaQUH_Lb2h6Z01EN3k4Ync&usp=sharing
5/10/2014 10:36:30 AM EDT
[#12]
I used a local lawyer referred to me by my dealer. It cost l$125.00. It has worked for 6 nfa stamps so far with 2 more still waiting to get out of nfa jail.
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