Armory Sponsor
Posted: 8/3/2011 6:40:04 AM EDT
| Has anyone ever used this guy's guides? If so, what experience did you have, good or bad? |
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I used it. I thought a lot of the info was helpful and it was all organized, didn't need to dig or research other sources, it was all on one page. The application is pretty cut and dried to be honest. I could have tackled it without FFL123.com, but I believe FFL123.com did help. I don't regret spending the $35 or whatever it cost.
ARAggie |
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I just went through the application process and did it without paying for a service.
All of the info is available for free on the ATF website and most questions I had were already answered here in this forum. If I had more money than time, maybe it would have been worth it to buy something like that but it would have been $40 that I didn't need to spend. |
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It's a waste of good money. All the info needed to apply for a FFL can be found on the ATFs website or here.
These folks here are more than happy to anwser any questions. They really helped me. A better use of the money would be to rent a box at your local UPS store so they can do your adult signatures when you're not home. |
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I used it and did what was recommended and everything went thru without a hitch. One thing that I found helpful was the cendensed fed regs that cover everything they ask when doing the interview. I still studied the full set of regs but used the condensed version when reviewing.
There is a lot of info that can be found here and elsewhere, but they give you step by step instructionns and cover some of the things that you cant find info on, and even though I got my 07/02 and did so in my comercial office space, with the info that I found there it saved a lot of time in research. What is provided goes thru most everything I was looking for, and when I had my interview the info there combined with what I had read here everything went quick and easy. The inspectors, yea they sent 2 out for my interview, both told me I was very well prepared and I should give classes. I attribute that to a combination of what was provided and also the fact that I did a lot of reading and studied everything I could get my hands on. If I had to do it again, I would still spend the money on what was provided just because it condensed everything that you need to know from filling out forms to what you need to study for the interview and it was done well. And just to ease some minds no I have no affiliation, and yes I did pay, but I also spent a lot of time reading here and other places before my interview. My issues was how much is my time worth... for the amount I spent on the info with them, it more than payed for my time!! |
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It's a waste of good money. All the info needed to apply for a FFL can be found on the ATFs website or here. These folks here are more than happy to anwser any questions. They really helped me. A better use of the money would be to rent a box at your local UPS store so they can do your adult signatures when you're not home. Your license has your licensed address where firearms are supposed to be shipped. Sending them to a UPS store is not legal!! On top of the fact if you notify the UPS store they are signing for firearms they will close your account. I thought about doing this rather than using my office and after reading found out that this cant be done! You are having a 3rd party sign for firearms and take control of them, no one knows their background and if they would even pass a background check... They wanted my receptionists info as she signs for 95% of all shipment that come to my office. They told me if the receptionist would be signing and have any physical control of the packages then its my responsibility to insure that she would pass a background check as well. With "the UPS store" they hire anyone including people convicted of felony's.... |
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It's a waste of good money. All the info needed to apply for a FFL can be found on the ATFs website or here. These folks here are more than happy to anwser any questions. They really helped me. A better use of the money would be to rent a box at your local UPS store so they can do your adult signatures when you're not home. Your license has your licensed address where firearms are supposed to be shipped. Sending them to a UPS store is not legal!! On top of the fact if you notify the UPS store they are signing for firearms they will close your account. I thought about doing this rather than using my office and after reading found out that this cant be done! You are having a 3rd party sign for firearms and take control of them, no one knows their background and if they would even pass a background check... They wanted my receptionists info as she signs for 95% of all shipment that come to my office. They told me if the receptionist would be signing and have any physical control of the packages then its my responsibility to insure that she would pass a background check as well. With "the UPS store" they hire anyone including people convicted of felony's.... Your ignorance of Federal law convinces me that FFL123 is a load of crap. Go back and read the FFL newsletters on the ATF website. |
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It's a waste of good money. All the info needed to apply for a FFL can be found on the ATFs website or here. These folks here are more than happy to anwser any questions. They really helped me. A better use of the money would be to rent a box at your local UPS store so they can do your adult signatures when you're not home. Your license has your licensed address where firearms are supposed to be shipped. Sending them to a UPS store is not legal!! On top of the fact if you notify the UPS store they are signing for firearms they will close your account. I thought about doing this rather than using my office and after reading found out that this cant be done! You are having a 3rd party sign for firearms and take control of them, no one knows their background and if they would even pass a background check... They wanted my receptionists info as she signs for 95% of all shipment that come to my office. They told me if the receptionist would be signing and have any physical control of the packages then its my responsibility to insure that she would pass a background check as well. With "the UPS store" they hire anyone including people convicted of felony's.... Your ignorance of Federal law convinces me that FFL123 is a load of crap. Go back and read the FFL newsletters on the ATF website. First off im not attempting to get in a pissing match and if I am wrong then I was incorrectly informed by the inspectors that came out for my interview! I haven't read all the FFL newsletters on the aft website, but in talking with the inspectors that came out, they confirmed to me that having a 3rd party sign for firearms that are not part of your business is not legal! There may be something in the newsletters, but face to face conversation with the inspectors answered my question which was asked above. They told me that that anyone that takes physical control of a shipment should be an employee of your business. I am going to go read the newsletters right now, but if you care to provide a link or site specific law then please do! I will find and post the same. Im sure it would be of benefit to anyone reading. As far as ffl123 goes it saved me time and my time is valuable to me. I do want to be fully aware of all laws and if I was miss informed then I will admit my mistake as I am man enough to do that, Please provide a link or site the specific reg that allows a 3rd party to sign for shipments. Have a great weekend. |
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What is the deal with having a gun vault? I've heard that you don't need to have that in order to get your FFL. I have a Storage room at my office that I have the only key for, I was told that would be suffiecient storage for storing firearms. Granted it has a steel framed solid door and a really good lock, and I have cameras recording everything in my office building. If someone came in I get notified along with local PD. As there is someone else that is saying that what the inspectors told me on another issue was incorrect, who knows maybe they didn't know the law on this either... |
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It's a waste of good money. All the info needed to apply for a FFL can be found on the ATFs website or here. These folks here are more than happy to anwser any questions. They really helped me. A better use of the money would be to rent a box at your local UPS store so they can do your adult signatures when you're not home. Your license has your licensed address where firearms are supposed to be shipped. Sending them to a UPS store is not legal!! On top of the fact if you notify the UPS store they are signing for firearms they will close your account. I thought about doing this rather than using my office and after reading found out that this cant be done! You are having a 3rd party sign for firearms and take control of them, no one knows their background and if they would even pass a background check... They wanted my receptionists info as she signs for 95% of all shipment that come to my office. They told me if the receptionist would be signing and have any physical control of the packages then its my responsibility to insure that she would pass a background check as well. With "the UPS store" they hire anyone including people convicted of felony's.... Your ignorance of Federal law convinces me that FFL123 is a load of crap. Go back and read the FFL newsletters on the ATF website. First off im not attempting to get in a pissing match and if I am wrong then I was incorrectly informed by the inspectors that came out for my interview! I haven't read all the FFL newsletters on the aft website, but in talking with the inspectors that came out, they confirmed to me that having a 3rd party sign for firearms that are not part of your business is not legal! There may be something in the newsletters, but face to face conversation with the inspectors answered my question which was asked above. They told me that that anyone that takes physical control of a shipment should be an employee of your business. I am going to go read the newsletters right now, but if you care to provide a link or site specific law then please do! I will find and post the same. Im sure it would be of benefit to anyone reading. As far as ffl123 goes it saved me time and my time is valuable to me. I do want to be fully aware of all laws and if I was miss informed then I will admit my mistake as I am man enough to do that, Please provide a link or site the specific reg that allows a 3rd party to sign for shipments. Have a great weekend. I just called and spoke to the local UPS store manager. He told me that "They are not permitted to ship or receive firearms not only per company policy, but because is violates federal law" .... He also said that there are people that get mailboxes and do have shipments that are shipped to them, and one the store is aware that they packages contain firearms they are supposed to close the account and report it. Now the Manager of the store down the street from me may also be wrong, but that make three people that have told me this is not legal. 2 ATF inspectors, and the local manager of the UPS store.... Ill keep checking... |
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It's a waste of good money. All the info needed to apply for a FFL can be found on the ATFs website or here. These folks here are more than happy to anwser any questions. They really helped me. A better use of the money would be to rent a box at your local UPS store so they can do your adult signatures when you're not home. Your license has your licensed address where firearms are supposed to be shipped. Sending them to a UPS store is not legal!! On top of the fact if you notify the UPS store they are signing for firearms they will close your account. I thought about doing this rather than using my office and after reading found out that this cant be done! You are having a 3rd party sign for firearms and take control of them, no one knows their background and if they would even pass a background check... They wanted my receptionists info as she signs for 95% of all shipment that come to my office. They told me if the receptionist would be signing and have any physical control of the packages then its my responsibility to insure that she would pass a background check as well. With "the UPS store" they hire anyone including people convicted of felony's.... What address on the license are firearms supposed to be sent to? |
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It's a waste of good money. All the info needed to apply for a FFL can be found on the ATFs website or here. These folks here are more than happy to anwser any questions. They really helped me. A better use of the money would be to rent a box at your local UPS store so they can do your adult signatures when you're not home. Your license has your licensed address where firearms are supposed to be shipped. Sending them to a UPS store is not legal!! On top of the fact if you notify the UPS store they are signing for firearms they will close your account. I thought about doing this rather than using my office and after reading found out that this cant be done! You are having a 3rd party sign for firearms and take control of them, no one knows their background and if they would even pass a background check... They wanted my receptionists info as she signs for 95% of all shipment that come to my office. They told me if the receptionist would be signing and have any physical control of the packages then its my responsibility to insure that she would pass a background check as well. With "the UPS store" they hire anyone including people convicted of felony's.... Your ignorance of Federal law convinces me that FFL123 is a load of crap. Go back and read the FFL newsletters on the ATF website. First off im not attempting to get in a pissing match and if I am wrong then I was incorrectly informed by the inspectors that came out for my interview! I haven't read all the FFL newsletters on the aft website, but in talking with the inspectors that came out, they confirmed to me that having a 3rd party sign for firearms that are not part of your business is not legal! There may be something in the newsletters, but face to face conversation with the inspectors answered my question which was asked above. They told me that that anyone that takes physical control of a shipment should be an employee of your business. I am going to go read the newsletters right now, but if you care to provide a link or site specific law then please do! I will find and post the same. Im sure it would be of benefit to anyone reading. As far as ffl123 goes it saved me time and my time is valuable to me. I do want to be fully aware of all laws and if I was miss informed then I will admit my mistake as I am man enough to do that, Please provide a link or site the specific reg that allows a 3rd party to sign for shipments. Have a great weekend. I just called and spoke to the local UPS store manager. He told me that "They are not permitted to ship or receive firearms not only per company policy, but because is violates federal law" .... He also said that there are people that get mailboxes and do have shipments that are shipped to them, and one the store is aware that they packages contain firearms they are supposed to close the account and report it. Now the Manager of the store down the street from me may also be wrong, but that make three people that have told me this is not legal. 2 ATF inspectors, and the local manager of the UPS store.... Ill keep checking... UPS must have learned their firearms law from FFL123. He's flat out wrong. Verbal advice from ATF is worth the paper it's printed on. Always ask them to show you the regulation that prohibits what they claim. |
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Legal, see page 8: http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2006-03.pdf
ETA: the UPS or USPS employees aren't acting as third-parties signing for the incoming package, you still do that as the shipment is to you at the PO box address. It's no different than if you arrange for a shipment to be held at a hub or your local post office if you can't receive it when someone attempts to make a delivery. |
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Quoted: I may be wrong, but if I am then prove it to me!! if not then close your pie hole or put up your info and lets see if you still have it in 6 mo. Im done defending what I have read and have been told by ATF is correct... I spent way too much time on this and this is why i dont post, and after this don't plan to anymore... There are too many people that think they know everything and if they ended up in court defending what they say would be so wrong.... Maybe Im one of those people, but when someone proves me wrong, Ill shut up. I did research and talked directly to ATF and the the UPS store, if im wrong then Im sorry for wasting your time reading this, but from how I read the law shipping to someone that is not a Licensee when across state lines if a violation! Hi and welcome to the FFL forum. I see you have been here less than a month and have a grand total of 7 posts. Maybe you were here a little longer as a lurker, maybe not. This is NOT General Discussion. We do not tell each other to "close your pie hole". We are not here to "prove" anything to you or anyone else. We provide information, and if you do not want to believe it or do your own research to verify it, nobody really cares. We are not interested in engaging in Internet arguments. You will see Dogtown has been here 4+ years, and Bubbles 10+ years. I have been here a while myself, and I can tell you, I have NEVER seen either of them post incorrect FFL info EVER. Repeat EVER. You on the other hand, have posted incorrect info on almost every post you have made. My free advice to you is to ask questions and not argue with them. You will get more correct info from them, than asking the ATF. |
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I may be wrong, but if I am then prove it to me!! if not then close your pie hole Okey doke. Let's take 'em one at a time........ 
1. "Your license has your licensed address where firearms are supposed to be shipped." True, each Federal Firearms License shows a "premises address" and a "mailing address"....but no Federal law or ATF regulation exists that says that those are the only legal addresses to ship to. If you had bothered to read the FFL Newsletters you would know that. Bubbles posted it above and I'll post it again: http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2006-03.pdf look at the bottom of page 8, left column. Note that ATF agrees with Bubbles and myself.....not you, not the ATF IOI's who told you different. 2. "Sending them to a UPS store is not legal!!" Well, clearly you are wrong on this as mentioned above. 3. "if you notify the UPS store they are signing for firearms they will close your account". Again, incorrect. UPS Stores are independently owned and operated and do not necessarily have the same policies as other UPS Stores. If you had spent two minutes on the UPS site you would know this, but here, I'll post the link for you: http://www.theupsstore.com/customer/faq/pages/faq_maiposser.aspx see anything in there about "NO FIREARMS"? Of course you don't. Again, you are wrong and while the local UPS Store manager may have been correct about HIS store policy, he's clearly wrong about UPS Store policies across the USA. There is no Federal law that prohibits a UPS Store from receiving a firearm, so again, you're wrong, the UPS Store manager is wrong. 4. "having a 3rd party sign for firearms that are not part of your business is not legal!" Again, you are wrong. This is getting laughable. Third "parties" that are not part of your business will sign and take physical control of your firearms package numerous times as it winds it's way through the transportation chain. Whether they are felons, reprobates or nosepickers is none of your concern. 5. "Please provide a link or site the specific reg that allows a 3rd party to sign for shipments" Sorry, the law doesn't work that way. Laws RESTRICT actions and behaviors, not allow them. If you believe so strongly that a third party cannot sign for packages why don't YOU show us the law? 6. "Im done defending what I have read and have been told by ATF is correct...... I spent way too much time on this and this is why i dont post, and after this don't plan to anymore..." Really? Don't you remember posting "...I will admit my mistake as I am man enough to do that..." 7. "I did research and talked directly to ATF and the the UPS store..." Talking to the manager at your local UPS Store isn't "research" any more than buying a Slurpee is making an investment in 7-11. Reading and studying the US Code of Federal Regulations IS research.....and you need to do that before you continue with business. 8. "but from how I read the law shipping to someone that is not a Licensee when across state lines if a violation!" Again you fail. 
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| All in all, for those who have their FFL, how has the experience with an FFL been? I am military and will probably be leaving the great state of Texas within the next couple of years. How would this affect an FFL if I were to apply for one? Also, I read in the ATF regs about a storage device for weapons. I don't plan on being a store owner with multiple firearms. I would like to get my FFL to help my bros out by not paying the local gun store $50/transfer. Also, do any of you have your Class 3 licenses. I've read about the different types. I'm wondering what EXACTLY the differences were between the Class 2 and 3. Thanks again. |
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All in all, for those who have their FFL, how has the experience with an FFL been? I am military and will probably be leaving the great state of Texas within the next couple of years. How would this affect an FFL if I were to apply for one? Also, I read in the ATF regs about a storage device for weapons. I don't plan on being a store owner with multiple firearms. I would like to get my FFL to help my bros out by not paying the local gun store $50/transfer. Also, do any of you have your Class 3 licenses. I've read about the different types. I'm wondering what EXACTLY the differences were between the Class 2 and 3. Thanks again. If you're thinking about getting an FFL to help you and your friends save on transfer fees, don't! The license is for the purpose of "being engaged in the business". If you just do transfers to a couple buddies, your license will be yanked. If you want to advertise on gunbroker and a few other places as a transfer dealer and have that be the bulk of your business along with some special orders and some incidental transfers to friends/family, that's fine. You just can't get a license to help out friends/family members. The difference between an 02 SOT and 03 SOT (Special Occupation Taxpayer), which is the correct term for "class 3" is that the 02 goes along with an 07 FFL. This is for gunsmiths/manufacturers. 03 SOT is the license that a regular 01 FFL would get to deal in Title 2 firearms. For a small scale operation, the 03 SOT is $500 per year July-June. |
| My plan was to sell on gunbroker and gunsamerica also. I know that I probably wouldn't need a storage device for doing this, since the wholesaler would be shipping the firearm to a FFL wherever the person purchased the firearm. I'm just trying to learn all of the ins and outs before I take the leap. Besides, I've got a few more months left here in Iraq. I know the SOT license where you have to pay $500/year is for making NFA weapons. I know that you cannot create automatic weapons because of the law passed years ago. Would the SOT for just dealing in NFA weapons allow me to purchase automatics from the rifle companies? I'm a newb at all this. Sorry for all of the basic questions. |
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All in all, for those who have their FFL, how has the experience with an FFL been? I am military and will probably be leaving the great state of Texas within the next couple of years. How would this affect an FFL if I were to apply for one? Also, I read in the ATF regs about a storage device for weapons. I don't plan on being a store owner with multiple firearms. I would like to get my FFL to help my bros out by not paying the local gun store $50/transfer. Also, do any of you have your Class 3 licenses. I've read about the different types. I'm wondering what EXACTLY the differences were between the Class 2 and 3. Thanks again. An FFL is issued to you for that one licensed premises. If you move expect anywhere from six to eight weeks for ATF to update with your new address. You cannot conduct firearms business until the new license is issued. Quite likely they would require you to submit a new application if you moved out of state. As mentioned above, an FFL is for someone who intends to engage in the business of dealing or manufacturing firearms. ATF does not issue an FFL for personal use. The "certification of safe storage" that you submit with your FFL application has nothing to do with you having a safe or alarm system. It means you certify that you have gun locks or other safe storage devices available at your premises. The Child Safety Lock Act requires this. Quoted:
My plan was to sell on gunbroker and gunsamerica also. I know that I probably wouldn't need a storage device for doing this, since the wholesaler would be shipping the firearm to a FFL wherever the person purchased the firearm. I'm just trying to learn all of the ins and outs before I take the leap. Besides, I've got a few more months left here in Iraq. I know the SOT license where you have to pay $500/year is for making NFA weapons. I know that you cannot create automatic weapons because of the law passed years ago. Would the SOT for just dealing in NFA weapons allow me to purchase automatics from the rifle companies? I'm a newb at all this. Sorry for all of the basic questions. The "certification of safe storage" that you submit with your FFL application has nothing to do with you having a safe or alarm system. It means you certify that you have gun locks or other safe storage devices available at your premises. The Child Safety Lock Act requires this. The SOT does not allow you to manufacture any firearm...if you have an 01FFL (dealer in firearms) you can only deal in NFA toys. To manufacture any firearm you need the 07FFL (Manufacturer). |
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Would it be playing in the grey area if someone brought me a stripped lower and parts kit for me to put together and I just had the dealer's license? It's not a gray area: http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2010-10.htm Manufacturing
ATF’s long-standing position is that any activities that result in the making of firearms for sale or distribution, to include installing parts in or on firearm frames and receivers, and processes that primarily enhance a firearm’s durability, constitute firearms manufacturing that may require a manufacturer’s license. In contrast, some activities are not firearms manufacturing processes, and do not require a manufacturer’s license. For example, ATF Ruling 2009-1 (approved January 12, 2009) explained that performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging or engraving, that primarily adds to or changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Likewise, ATF Ruling 2009-2 (approved January 12, 2009) stated that installing “drop-in” replacement parts in or on existing, fully assembled firearms does not result in any alteration to the original firearms. Persons engaged in the business of these activities that do not constitute firearms manufacturing need only obtain a dealer’s license. Although installing parts in or on firearms, and applying special coatings and treatments to firearms are manufacturing activities, the definition of “manufacturer” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies. Thus, a person who manufactures a firearm will require a manufacturer’s license if he/she devotes time, attention, and labor to such manufacture as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured. If the person is performing such services only for a customer on firearms provided by that customer, and is not selling or distributing the firearms manufactured, the person would be a “dealer” as defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11, requiring a dealer’s license, assuming the person is “engaged in the business” as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 (i.e., “gunsmithing”). |
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If I were to get the NFA dealer's license and I purchased suppressors, I would have to do a Form 4 to transfer them to my Trust, correct? I've got the Trust, just in case I get stationed overseas and I can't take my toys with me. There is no such thing as an "NFA dealer license".....it's an 01FFL with SOT. Your FFL is valid for a period of three years, while the SOT must be paid annually. I don't understand why you would need to transfer anything to your trust. |
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If I were to get the NFA dealer's license and I purchased suppressors, I would have to do a Form 4 to transfer them to my Trust, correct? I've got the Trust, just in case I get stationed overseas and I can't take my toys with me. if you wanted to transfer them to your trust you are correct. Why would you want to transfer them to your trust? if you get an FFL and SOT and then have to move overseas then you can maintain the FFL/SOT and store the items in the US or you can let the licence expire and keep the supressors (whatever entity had the licence would keep them) |
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I may be wrong, but if I am then prove it to me!! if not then close your pie hole Okey doke. Let's take 'em one at a time........
3. "if you notify the UPS store they are signing for firearms they will close your account". Again, incorrect. UPS Stores are independently owned and operated and do not necessarily have the same policies as other UPS Stores. If you had spent two minutes on the UPS site you would know this, but here, I'll post the link for you: http://www.theupsstore.com/customer/faq/pages/faq_maiposser.aspx see anything in there about "NO FIREARMS"? Of course you don't. Again, you are wrong and while the local UPS Store manager may have been correct about HIS store policy, he's clearly wrong about UPS Store policies across the USA. There is no Federal law that prohibits a UPS Store from receiving a firearm, so again, you're wrong, the UPS Store manager is wrong. 6. "Im done defending what I have read and have been told by ATF is correct...... I spent way too much time on this and this is why i dont post, and after this don't plan to anymore..." Really? Don't you remember posting "...I will admit my mistake as I am man enough to do that..." First off I want to apologize for getting as worked up as I did... I had a bad day and was taking it out on everyone that day... As I stated I may be wrong on somethings, but, I have requested written clairification from the ATF agent and once I get it will post what I get from him. It will be written and on ATF letterhead, so things will be very specific as I gave him the info and requested very specific wording and references to the law and also references to the atf posted letters per the link you provided. As for "The UPS Store" I have had a few emails back and forth with their customer relations department and will post the exact emails (minus my info) as to what they have said. Hello Paul, Below is the verbiage from the Operations Manual. By law, ammunition and firearms can be picked up, transported, and delivered only directly between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, licensed collectors, and law enforcement agencies. Carriers servicing Centers cannot accept shipments of ammunition or firearms, even if the shipping and receiving parties are licensed. MBE strictly prohibits Franchisees from packaging and shipping or receiving ammunition, Packaging and Shipping Services or receiving firearms, or parts of firearms. Franchisees who violate this requirement may face five (5) years in prison and penalties of $250,000.00 or more. Best regards, MBE/The UPS Store Home Office Customer Relations Department [email protected] ________________________________________ From: Paul Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 11:04 AM To: Customer Relations (GWJ7GYZ) Subject: RE: Contact Us - Item ID996 Importance: High I have one last thing I am trying to find out. If I have a box at “The UPS store”, can I receive firearms at the store? The store would be signing for the shipment and then I would come in to pick it up from my box. Would that be ok, or would there be a problem with doing that also? Thanks, Paul From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:51 PM To: Paul Subject: RE: Contact Us - Item ID996 Yes, The UPS Store would be considered a Third-Party Retailer. ________________________________________ From: Paul Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:41 PM To: Customer Relations (GWJ7GYZ) Subject: RE: Contact Us - Item ID996 So would I be able to ship a firearm if I took it to ”the UPS store” for shipping to another FFL, or would the UPS store be considered a Third-Party Retailer? Thanks, Paul From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 11:18 AM To: Paul Subject: RE: Contact Us - Item ID996 Per the UPS Tariffs/Term and Conditions, Firearms (including handguns) are not accepted for transpiration via UPS Drop Boxes or UPS Internet Shipping, in response to a request for UPS On-Call Pickup service or when presented for shipment at any Third-Party Retailer, UPS Returns Services are not available for packages containing firearms. Regards, MBE/The UPS Store Customer Relations ________________________________________ From: Customer Service for The UPS Store [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:21 AM To: Customer Relations (GWJ7GYZ) Subject: Contact Us - Item ID996 Customer Service for The UPS Store Item ID996 has been added Modify my alert settings |View Item ID996 |View Contact Us Name:Paul E-Mail: Comments:I was trying to find out the policy on shipping and receiving firearms from the ups store. If you could please reply via email with the company policy that would be a big help. Thanks Last Modified 8/8/2011 12:15 AM by (unknown) As can be seen above, according to the customer relations department, even a Franchisee can be fined and sent to prison...?? Again UPS may have it wrong in thier operations manual, but fom the emails I got The UPS Store doesnt permit any store or franchisee according to the operations guide to do so and be following the rules and regulations that they are required to follow. And this is all stores nation wide. Again I may be wrong, but from what I have researched and been told directly by THE UPS STOE national customer relations department and being quoted from the franchise operations manual, If a store is doing it then they are breaking at least the franchise rules. Once I get the letter from ATF then I will post it as well and I may or may not be wrong there as well. Again I apologize for my rude comments, I will be sure to back up anything furter with posted emails or scanned letters. The remaining items I will have clairification on once I get the letter from ATF. And as I stated if I am wrong I will admit to it. I believe I have shown I was correct as far as the UPS store is concerned, at least with franchise regulations. |
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Hello Paul, Below is the verbiage from the Operations Manual. By law, ammunition and firearms can be picked up, transported, and delivered only directly between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, licensed collectors, and law enforcement agencies. Uhhhh.....really? UPS hasn't a clue about Federal firearms laws OR THEIR OWN shipping tariffs.........UPS shipping policeis CLEARLY DO ALLOW THE ABOVE. Read their Firearms Shippping policy and get back to us. Ammunition is delivered to the front door of average Joes every day by UPS Ground. Sheesh....this is hysterical. Carriers servicing Centers cannot accept shipments of ammunition or firearms, even if the shipping and receiving parties are licensed. This means that UPS, FedEx or USPS (carriers) cannot accept firearms or ammunition shipments from a UPS Store.........no one has disputed that. If you read the UPS Firearms Shipping policy you would see that. EVERY dealer on this forum knows you can't ship guns or ammunition from a UPS Store. Again nothing new here. MBE strictly prohibits Franchisees from packaging and shipping or receiving ammunition, Packaging and Shipping Services or receiving firearms, or parts of firearms. Franchisees who violate this requirement may face five (5) years in prison and penalties of $250,000.00 or more. Which is odd.........because below is the answer that I just received when I contacted the UPS Store: ....MBE strictly prohibits Franchisees from packaging and shipping ammunition, Packaging and Shipping Services firearms, or parts of firearms. Franchisees who violate this requirement may face five (5) years in prison and penalties of $250,000.00 or more.
Note the difference? The quote from UPS that you posted mentions "receiving".....mine doesn't! that changes the entire meaning.....your statement says no to "receiving", mine says you can't use packaging and shipping services for firearms or parts of firearms....thats a pretty serious difference.
Methinks someone at UPS is making shit up.......I'm not saying it's you......I fully believe the CS contact that responded to both of us is FOS. The paragraph doesn't even use correct grammer. I think some CS wonk is cutting and pasting different parts of some manual to give an answer....and doesn't do a very good job of it. I will bet you my license that there is no Federal prohibition against shipping guns or ammunition FROM a UPS Store......it is only their company policy. And violating a company policy or shipping tariff DOESN'T result in fines or imprisonment. You only go to jail or get fined for violating the law. So would I be able to ship a firearm if I took it to ”the UPS store” for shipping to another FFL, or would the UPS store be considered a Third-Party Retailer?Thanks, Paul
Again old news.....read this link that's been posted a gazillion times on this and pretty much every gun forum in America: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html?srch_pos=3&srch_phr=handgun If you had read that you would't have needed to ask the question. Again, FFL123 leaves out some pretty important stuff....doesn't it? As can be seen above, according to the customer relations department, even a Franchisee can be fined and sent to prison...?? Seriously? That's laughable.....run that by ATF they need the entertainment.
Again UPS may have it wrong in thier operations manual, but fom the emails I got The UPS Store doesnt permit any store or franchisee according to the operations guide to do so and be following the rules and regulations that they are required to follow. And this is all stores nation wide. Really? When I opened my UPS Store account i made damned sure my rental contract didn't have a "no firearms" clause................and it didn't then nor does it now. Here's a link to the standard UPS Store rental agreement: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/29198581/UPS-Store-Mailbox-Rental-Agreement-Form Again I apologize for my rude comments, Apology accepted .
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Hello Paul, Below is the verbiage from the Operations Manual. By law, ammunition and firearms can be picked up, transported, and delivered only directly between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, licensed collectors, and law enforcement agencies. Uhhhh.....really? UPS hasn't a clue about Federal firearms laws OR THEIR OWN shipping tariffs.........UPS shipping policeis CLEARLY DO ALLOW THE ABOVE. Read their Firearms Shippping policy and get back to us. Ammunition is delivered to the front door of average Joes every day by UPS Ground. Sheesh....this is hysterical. This I understand this completely! I was just posting what they quoted to me in an email exchange. Carriers servicing Centers cannot accept shipments of ammunition or firearms, even if the shipping and receiving parties are licensed. This means that UPS, FedEx or USPS (carriers) cannot accept firearms or ammunition shipments from a UPS Store.........no one has disputed that. If you read the UPS Firearms Shipping policy you would see that. EVERY dealer on this forum knows you can't ship guns or ammunition from a UPS Store. Again nothing new here. Again I was just quoting what they told me, I am and have been aware of this since day one! MBE strictly prohibits Franchisees from packaging and shipping or receiving ammunition, Packaging and Shipping Services or receiving firearms, or parts of firearms. Franchisees who violate this requirement may face five (5) years in prison and penalties of $250,000.00 or more. Which is odd.........because below is the answer that I just received when I contacted the UPS Store: ....MBE strictly prohibits Franchisees from packaging and shipping ammunition, Packaging and Shipping Services firearms, or parts of firearms. Franchisees who violate this requirement may face five (5) years in prison and penalties of $250,000.00 or more.
Note the difference? The quote from UPS that you posted mentions "receiving".....mine doesn't! that changes the entire meaning.....your statement says no to "receiving", mine says you can't use packaging and shipping services for firearms or parts of firearms....thats a pretty serious difference.
Methinks someone at UPS is making shit up.......I'm not saying it's you......I fully believe the CS contact that responded to both of us is FOS. The paragraph doesn't even use correct grammer. I think some CS wonk is cutting and pasting different parts of some manual to give an answer....and doesn't do a very good job of it. I will bet you my license that there is no Federal prohibition against shipping guns or ammunition FROM a UPS Store......it is only their company policy. And violating a company policy or shipping tariff DOESN'T result in fines or imprisonment. You only go to jail or get fined for violating the law. Its entirely possible you are correct, different people grab whatever verbage they have and email if, if you read my email was to them specifically asking about having an account and them receivingg firearms for me. That was their reply.... I was also told pretty much the same thing from the local store owner. Im not saying that they are are correct, but this is just what I was told in email and by the local ups store owner. So would I be able to ship a firearm if I took it to ”the UPS store” for shipping to another FFL, or would the UPS store be considered a Third-Party Retailer?Thanks, Paul
Again old news.....read this link that's been posted a gazillion times on this and pretty much every gun forum in America: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html?srch_pos=3&srch_phr=handgun If you had read that you would't have needed to ask the question. Again, FFL123 leaves out some pretty important stuff....doesn't it? No I understood that completely before and after getting the info from ffl123 and that is specifically covered in the material. The reason for asking it was to get their response not for my own information, I was aware this was not legal. As can be seen above, according to the customer relations department, even a Franchisee can be fined and sent to prison...?? Seriously? That's laughable.....run that by ATF they need the entertainment.
I thought that was funny myself thats why I posted it the way I did as a joking question. Again UPS may have it wrong in thier operations manual, but fom the emails I got The UPS Store doesnt permit any store or franchisee according to the operations guide to do so and be following the rules and regulations that they are required to follow. And this is all stores nation wide. Really? When I opened my UPS Store account i made damned sure my rental contract didn't have a "no firearms" clause................and it didn't then nor does it now. My primary statement regarding the ups store was that it was my belief that having them sign for your shipments was not legal. That was based from what I was told by ATF and the ups store. It seems that the corporate ups store has certain policys in place and they may or may not be following the law, the franchisee's are supposed to be following the corporate policy and it seems some do and some don't... The ATF agent is supposed to be getting me a letter, so when that comes I guess we can debate more. lol I have a commercial building and my receptionist signs for all packages so I have no need to have the ups store sign for my packages, I had asked about it as I was considering having firearms shipped elsewhere separate from my other business. That was why I had asked the local UPS store and also ATF when they came to visit. Again I apologize for my rude comments, Apology accepted .
Anyways you seem to be still trying to tear everything apart that I post. The only thing I was originally trying to do was answer the original post. I did get the ffl123 info and most of it was very informational! Saved me a lot of time. I did ask questions that were not covered, and was given answers by ATF that contradict what you said, and if I was going to believe someone, it would be the person that could take my license. I do believe the people at the ups store corporate headquarters have a lot of learning to do, especially if they expect franchisee's to follow their policys, as not all of them do. I believe they don't want any franchisee's doing anything with firearms which was the reasons for the responses. Im not trying to fight about anything just having discussion based on info I was given. Have a good night and good debating with you. until next time... |
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I guess I am fxxxxd up on both sides of this. I bought the ffl.123 and got a lot out of the structured way it explains things. I consider myself very to be moderately intelligent and the price seemed well worth it, although I am sure I could have navigated through it without the expense.
I must have a good guy at my local UPS shop (not a UPS store, but a POBox, packaging, copying, faxing, etc place) in the strip mall by my house. He not only ships my pistols and rifles to manufacturers that I have doing work for me on my toys (Colt, Ruger, S&W) but he also helps me figure out the best way to package them. Me (currently not but waiting to be an FFL) like anyone else can ship my guns to a manufacturer for work. |
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I did ask questions that were not covered, and was given answers by ATF that contradict what you said, and if I was going to believe someone, it would be the person that could take my license
I wouldnt trust what the ATF tells you on the phone. I have called them MULTIPLE TIMES and been told things that where illegal from multiple people. for example, I have been told that I do not need to mark title 2 weapons I make on a form1. I have delt with the UPS store also. The one here has a sign up that has wrong info regarding whats legal and what illegal. |
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In regards to "The UPS Store", they are each Franchises and are not owned by UPS. The UPS Store was originally Mail Boxes Etc. until UPS bought MBE. Rules regarding shipping are different for The UPS Store and customer counters in actual UPS facilities. Shipping rates are different as well. |
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Mr Dogtown Tom -
Respectably commenting if I may.... I am Mr. FFL123.com and hopefully I won't offend the moderators by responding here to defend myself since I am an AR15.com member and corporate sponsor thru their e-newsletter. I will agree that the insights in the ATF newsletter are valid documentation of this being an acceptable ATF approved process to ship to a non-licensed address. I think you will find in everyday practice, no FFL Licensee will send to a non-licensed address for an FFL to FFL transfer, why incur additional risk. I know of no manufacturer or wholesaler that would send a firearms shipment to a non-licensed address, I always mail to the physical address for risk coverage myself. My North Dakota FFL mailing address is in South Dakota.... Although legal to do, I cannot think of a reason why someone would do it. I agree the offsite non-licensed storage option is very attractive and I have utilized this personally to protect my family by storing my silencers offsite for security reasons. I have two FFL07's and an FFL01, a Class 2 and a Class 3. As a hobby, I do help customers obtain their FFL and I am very passionate about helping others. I can honestly say, I have never had a customer not be 100% satisfied with my service when done. I want everyone happy and don't want to cause any problems or conflicts. I sell several hundred silencers a year and happy to help others on this forum get them cheaper if I can help...my volume helps with price. Again, I don't want to create ANY conflict and I am always open to helping anyone within the firearms industry anyway I can. I am also open to feedback as well. I hope to meet many of you at ShotShow in January. I just hired Wally Nelson the former ATF executive as a consultant to help me continue to grow my knowledge in these areas from an ATF perspective. I look forward to continuing to learn from each of your unique experiences. Please feel free to ask me questions is I can help in anyway. I am currently working on submitting a few ATF variances to the ATF St Paul field office and may need some help if anyone has ever successfully done one. Thanks, Brandon L. Maddox |
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One additional insight, I have a day job so deliveries with signature required are an issue. Bud's guns now requires the package be physically delivered to the FFL's licensed physical address. I could not pick a package I needed to sign for at the UPS hub office, no exceptions... they had to send the gun back. It was a handgun.
Just an fyi. Thanks, Brandon Maddox |
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Bud's guns now requires the package be physically delivered to the FFL's licensed physical address. Absolutely, positively, not true. I receive 15- 20 shipments from Bud's every month (six this week)..........not a single firearm from Bud's has EVER been shipped to my current premises address. All are shipped to my FFL mailing address. |
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Wait a second....
my particular situation is 100% real <why would I allow UPS to send a customer's handgun back?>, my mailing and physical address are one in the same at my South Dakota location.... This may work for you and I appreciate the insight that Bud's is willing to mail to a mailing address versus the FFL Licensed physical address, good to know. I also appreciate the clarification, thus if I want shipments from Bud's... I could change my mailing address on my FFL to my day job. Thanks, Brandon |
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. I also appreciate the clarification, thus if I want shipments from Bud's... I could change my mailing address on my FFL to my day job. Thanks, Brandon If having daily deliveries from USPS, UPS, FedEx & FedEx Ground is disruptive to your day job.....just rent a box at the UPS Store (or similiar) and just pick up your daily shipments all at once. The UPS Store will receive deliveries from USPS & FedEx as well. (and there is always somone available to sign for deliveries at a UPS Store) |
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This thread has been seriously hi-jacked! There is a lot of information on there that is well...confusing. Internet arguing . I used Brandon's FFL123 for 2 FFLs and 2 SOTs. I am a Type 1 and 7. Class 3 and 2, respectively. I liked the format that Brandon utilizes. It saved me time in doing research. I, for one, recommend FFL123. YMMV. I am in agreement to the FACT that the ATF does not know the laws that they regulate. I have called ten people on the same question and received 12 answers. WTF? Use the FFL guide and NFA handbook. They explain things, but only moderately well. Also, written correspondence is important. If there is something that is written ambiguously, then you can write a letter and ask for clarification. It takes a few weeks, but oh well. It is better than listening to so jack off at the ATF who thinks he knows, but doesn't. I have had to personally guide them to the NFA handbook to show them their regulations. They did not know them. For example, an SOT transfers a silencer on a Form 4 to a trust. A trustee of the trust will sign the Form 4. Upon receipt of the approved Form 4, the Trustee will fill out a 4473 and a NICS check MUST TAKE PLACE. For an approved Form 4 to an individual, there is no need to perform a NICS check. It is not necessary. When a trust is used, the ATF did not conduct a background check on the individual, they make sure that the trust is viable. Do the ATF inspectors know this? Um, no, not for the most part. This is just one example. It seems that there are a lot of knowledgeable folks here. I don't care how long I have been in this game, there is always something that I can learn. I can always find a better way of doing things. |
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Bud's guns now requires the package be physically delivered to the FFL's licensed physical address. Absolutely, positively, not true. I receive 15- 20 shipments from Bud's every month (six this week)..........not a single firearm from Bud's has EVER been shipped to my current premises address. All are shipped to my FFL mailing address. +1..."Buds" shipped 4 guns to me last week and NONE of them went to my "Premise" address. ALL of them were received at the "MAILING" address. |
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