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Posted: 8/26/2014 10:37:11 PM EDT
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Over the past couple weeks I've done a little traveling and have finally gotten some better opportunities to test out my filmless tubes in truly dark conditions. It has also given me a chance to compare the filmless tubes side-by-side against other Gen 3 thin-film and standard film tubes in real-world outdoor conditions.
Although the filmless tubes appear to have a slight edge in resolution and SNR, under most circumstances there isn't a huge difference compared to the filmed tubes from a usability standpoint. If the filmed tubes struggle, so do the filmless tubes and vice-versa. The filmless tubes do, however, seem to dominate the filmed tubes when it comes to contrast. The exceptional contrast of the filmless tubes has translated really well for taking pictures and consequently I've been using filmless tubes almost exclusively now when taking night vision pictures. Unfortunately, this means I didn't do any thin-film vs. filmless picture comparisons this time so you'll have to take my word for it 
Bixby Bridge and cliffs along the Pacific Coast Highway near Big Sur, CA - The conditions were extremely dark. Overcast, no moon, very few visible stars, and far away from major cities. 
Wright's Lake, Eldorado National Forest near South Lake Tahoe, CA - New moon, very far away from the city. Basically pure starlight conditions. 
The light streaks in this picture are from someone briefly switching on their car headlights in the distance: 
Milky Way 
Dark Lake - Eldorado National Forrest near South Lake Tahoe, CA - Same night and conditions, but heavier tree cover. These were taken earlier in the night so there was still some light along the horizon where the sun had set 
Holly Lake Ranch, Texas - Dark, rural, heavily wooded with cloud cover and minimal sky glow 
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Thanks guys.
I'm using L3 filmless tubes. One is an MX10160 style aviation tube and the other is an MX-11769 tube. I bought both of the tubes used and neither came with a data sheet so I don't know the specs. The MX-10160 is cleaner than the MX-11769, which displays some honeycomb and other fixed pattern noise under brighter conditions. I use the MX-11769 most of the time for pictures though because the view from the aviation tube isn't perfectly circular and the photos have to be cropped or else they look weird. 
Here's what the MX-10160 looks like without cropping: (quick iphone picture) 
Camera is a Nikon D3200. I had an Armasight camera adapter, but it held the camera lens too far away from the eyepiece of the monocular. I ended up finding a rubber pipe-fitting reducer in the plumbing section of the hardware store: 
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| Thanks guys! Yea, sometimes the simplest setup works the best. I spent about 45 minutes in the hardware store gathering all kinds of parts in an attempt to make some sort of elaborate camera mount, then when I'm on my way up to the front of the store I see this rubber pipe fitting with clamps and everything for $4. Problem solved! |
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Fantastic post! Thank you for sharing! Quoted:
Fantastic post! Thank you for sharing! Quoted:
AWESOME! some of the nicest real photos i have seen thru the tube...and all in 1 post!! Thanks!
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Awesome pics, and I do believe I've been inspired! Going shopping for a rubber dodad like you made up very soon. Sweet! Let me know how it goes and make sure to post your pictures once you get it set up! If you have any questions about camera settings I'd be happy to help out. It's really quite easy once you tweak the settings a little bit. |
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What kind of exposure times are you using? I ask because that lens you're using is pretty slow, so you'd need to crank up ISO or exposure times (or both). I assume you're at or above one second? Probably keeping the ISO under 800 to keep noise down? f4 or f5.6 on the aperture to keep it sharp?
ETA: Not dissing you, BTW. I've been able to get excellent TTL NOD images when on a tripod with longer exposure times. That also "cleans" up any tube noise, since the shutter speed is too slow to capture fixed noise patterns. |
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What kind of exposure times are you using? I ask because that lens you're using is pretty slow, so you'd need to crank up ISO or exposure times (or both). I assume you're at or above one second? Probably keeping the ISO under 800 to keep noise down? f4 or f5.6 on the aperture to keep it sharp? ETA: Not dissing you, BTW. I've been able to get excellent TTL NOD images when on a tripod with longer exposure times. That also "cleans" up any tube noise, since the shutter speed is too slow to capture fixed noise patterns. Exposure time is the setting I change the most. If I'm using a tripod, I keep the ISO at 100 and play with the shutter speed until the picture looks good. Under darker conditions, I usually start somewhere around 1 second and move up or down from there. I mostly keep the aperture on the lowest f-stop (f3.5) in order to gather as much light as possible. I suppose I could try a narrower aperture to bring more objects into focus, but I'm not sure how much it will help since the PVS-14 has such a shallow depth of field anyway. When I'm shooting by hand I increase the ISO to anywhere from 200-800 and increase the shutter speed accordingly. It involves a fair bit of trial and error and I usually take a bunch of pictures under a range of settings and pick the best ones. |
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Exposure time is the setting I change the most. If I'm using a tripod, I keep the ISO at 100 and play with the shutter speed until the picture looks good. Under darker conditions, I usually start somewhere around 1 second and move up or down from there. I mostly keep the aperture on the lowest f-stop (f3.5) in order to gather as much light as possible. I suppose I could try a narrower aperture to bring more objects into focus, but I'm not sure how much it will help since the PVS-14 has such a shallow depth of field anyway. When I'm shooting by hand I increase the ISO to anywhere from 200-800 and increase the shutter speed accordingly. It involves a fair bit of trial and error and I usually take a bunch of pictures under a range of settings and pick the best ones. The f-stop is as much about image sharpness as it is DoF. By stopping down 1-2 stops from maximum it will sharpen the image up considerably. It may not have that much effect on an NV image, since the tubes are low resolution anyway, but typically the maximum aperture on most lenses is also the softest when it comes to resolution / sharpness. Of course, you'll have to dial down shutter speed or dial up ISO to compensate. With an f/3.5 lens it would be sharpest at f/8, but even 5.6 would be a dramatic improvement -- for "normal" photography anyway. It may not make that much of difference through a NOD. Try shooting some video and post that. |
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The f-stop is as much about image sharpness as it is DoF. By stopping down 1-2 stops from maximum it will sharpen the image up considerably. It may not have that much effect on an NV image, since the tubes are low resolution anyway, but typically the maximum aperture on most lenses is also the softest when it comes to resolution / sharpness. Of course, you'll have to dial down shutter speed or dial up ISO to compensate. With an f/3.5 lens it would be sharpest at f/8, but even 5.6 would be a dramatic improvement -- for "normal" photography anyway. It may not make that much of difference through a NOD. Try shooting some video and post that. Quoted:
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Exposure time is the setting I change the most. If I'm using a tripod, I keep the ISO at 100 and play with the shutter speed until the picture looks good. Under darker conditions, I usually start somewhere around 1 second and move up or down from there. I mostly keep the aperture on the lowest f-stop (f3.5) in order to gather as much light as possible. I suppose I could try a narrower aperture to bring more objects into focus, but I'm not sure how much it will help since the PVS-14 has such a shallow depth of field anyway. When I'm shooting by hand I increase the ISO to anywhere from 200-800 and increase the shutter speed accordingly. It involves a fair bit of trial and error and I usually take a bunch of pictures under a range of settings and pick the best ones. The f-stop is as much about image sharpness as it is DoF. By stopping down 1-2 stops from maximum it will sharpen the image up considerably. It may not have that much effect on an NV image, since the tubes are low resolution anyway, but typically the maximum aperture on most lenses is also the softest when it comes to resolution / sharpness. Of course, you'll have to dial down shutter speed or dial up ISO to compensate. With an f/3.5 lens it would be sharpest at f/8, but even 5.6 would be a dramatic improvement -- for "normal" photography anyway. It may not make that much of difference through a NOD. Try shooting some video and post that. I tend to notice a big difference in my 35/1.4 when i stop down behind a tube, but it is /1.4 to begin with…. i usually float around /4 when i shoot my videos |
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The f-stop is as much about image sharpness as it is DoF. By stopping down 1-2 stops from maximum it will sharpen the image up considerably. It may not have that much effect on an NV image, since the tubes are low resolution anyway, but typically the maximum aperture on most lenses is also the softest when it comes to resolution / sharpness. Of course, you'll have to dial down shutter speed or dial up ISO to compensate. With an f/3.5 lens it would be sharpest at f/8, but even 5.6 would be a dramatic improvement -- for "normal" photography anyway. It may not make that much of difference through a NOD. Try shooting some video and post that. Quoted:
The f-stop is as much about image sharpness as it is DoF. By stopping down 1-2 stops from maximum it will sharpen the image up considerably. It may not have that much effect on an NV image, since the tubes are low resolution anyway, but typically the maximum aperture on most lenses is also the softest when it comes to resolution / sharpness. Of course, you'll have to dial down shutter speed or dial up ISO to compensate. With an f/3.5 lens it would be sharpest at f/8, but even 5.6 would be a dramatic improvement -- for "normal" photography anyway. It may not make that much of difference through a NOD. Try shooting some video and post that. Quoted:
I tend to notice a big difference in my 35/1.4 when i stop down behind a tube, but it is /1.4 to begin with…. i usually float around /4 when i shoot my videos Ah okay. Thanks! I'll try narrowing the aperture a bit and see how that goes. Sounds like it should be an improvement, especially for brighter conditions. The fact that I can even partially understand what you guys are talking about is kind of amazing to me. Before I started taking night-vision pictures a couple months ago, I didn't even know how to work the basic functions on my camera. Now I'm on here talking about ISO's and apertures like I know a thing or two
Do you think it would help to get a faster lens like this? http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-35mm-1-8G-Digital-Cameras/dp/B001S2PPT0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409231831&sr=8-1&keywords=nikon+f1.8+dx+af-s |
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Ah okay. Thanks! I'll try narrowing the aperture a bit and see how that goes. Sounds like it should be an improvement, especially for brighter conditions. The fact that I can even partially understand what you guys are talking about is kind of amazing to me. Before I started taking night-vision pictures a couple months ago, I didn't even know how to work the basic functions on my camera. Now I'm on here talking about ISO's and apertures like I know a thing or two
Do you think it would help to get a faster lens like this? http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-35mm-1-8G-Digital-Cameras/dp/B001S2PPT0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409231831&sr=8-1&keywords=nikon+f1.8+dx+af-s Quoted:
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The f-stop is as much about image sharpness as it is DoF. By stopping down 1-2 stops from maximum it will sharpen the image up considerably. It may not have that much effect on an NV image, since the tubes are low resolution anyway, but typically the maximum aperture on most lenses is also the softest when it comes to resolution / sharpness. Of course, you'll have to dial down shutter speed or dial up ISO to compensate. With an f/3.5 lens it would be sharpest at f/8, but even 5.6 would be a dramatic improvement -- for "normal" photography anyway. It may not make that much of difference through a NOD. Try shooting some video and post that. Quoted:
I tend to notice a big difference in my 35/1.4 when i stop down behind a tube, but it is /1.4 to begin with…. i usually float around /4 when i shoot my videos Ah okay. Thanks! I'll try narrowing the aperture a bit and see how that goes. Sounds like it should be an improvement, especially for brighter conditions. The fact that I can even partially understand what you guys are talking about is kind of amazing to me. Before I started taking night-vision pictures a couple months ago, I didn't even know how to work the basic functions on my camera. Now I'm on here talking about ISO's and apertures like I know a thing or two
Do you think it would help to get a faster lens like this? http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-35mm-1-8G-Digital-Cameras/dp/B001S2PPT0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409231831&sr=8-1&keywords=nikon+f1.8+dx+af-s honestly i think your setup is good for now, with a fixed lens you cant zoom in and out of the image and once you stip down to /4 anyways its going to show no real difference anyways. Now for that 35/1.8 get it for personal non night vision use, it is a killer lens |
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Ah okay. Thanks! I'll try narrowing the aperture a bit and see how that goes. Sounds like it should be an improvement, especially for brighter conditions. The fact that I can even partially understand what you guys are talking about is kind of amazing to me. Before I started taking night-vision pictures a couple months ago, I didn't even know how to work the basic functions on my camera. Now I'm on here talking about ISO's and apertures like I know a thing or two
Do you think it would help to get a faster lens like this? http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-35mm-1-8G-Digital-Cameras/dp/B001S2PPT0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409231831&sr=8-1&keywords=nikon+f1.8+dx+af-s A faster lens would certainly help some. Like PBJ, you could stop-down two full stops and still be at f/4. However, on an APS dSLR the FoV crop would probably cut off some of the image circle. At what MM does your zoom begin to crop the circle? If you can set it at 35mm and still see the entire circle, then I'd say go for the prime you listed above. Also, it will open up options to you for normal photography. It's two stops faster than your zoom at maximum aperture, which is great for indoor / available-light work without having to dive too deep into the ISO pool. That, and it's cheap for what you get. |
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Now for that 35/1.8 get it for personal non night vision use, it is a killer lens Quoted:
Now for that 35/1.8 get it for personal non night vision use, it is a killer lens Quoted:
A faster lens would certainly help some. Like PBJ, you could stop-down two full stops and still be at f/4. However, on an APS dSLR the FoV crop would probably cut off some of the image circle. At what MM does your zoom begin to crop the circle? If you can set it at 35mm and still see the entire circle, then I'd say go for the prime you listed above. Also, it will open up options to you for normal photography. It's two stops faster than your zoom at maximum aperture, which is great for indoor / available-light work without having to dive too deep into the ISO pool. That, and it's cheap for what you get. Okay, you guys convinced me to go ahead and get the faster lens. I picked one up at Best Buy this morning. The zoom at 35mm does cut off some of the image circle. It pretty much has to be at 18mm to get the entire thing. No big deal. I can just crop it or leave it as is depending on what I'm trying to do. I'm sure it will come in handy for other stuff like video and non-night vision photography. I also made a better camera adapter that attaches to the existing threads on both the camera and PVS-14. This piece should make switching out camera lenses and NVD's a lot easier and it only cost me $6 in parts and about 10 minutes to make. 
Parts: - (1) 52mm UV filter ($5) - (2) Washers ($1) - (1) PVS-14 Eyepiece retaining ring (already had) - Super glue (already had) 
To make the adapter: 1. I broke the glass lens and removed it from the UV filter (turns out I could have just unscrewed the retaining ring). 2. Unscrewed the retaining ring, inserted the washers and glued them in place 3. Screwed in the UV filter lens retaining ring on top of the washers and tightened it down 4. Inserted the PVS-14 eyepiece retaining ring in the middle of the washers and secured it with some glue The glue isn't necessary, especially if you get the right size washers, because everything will be sandwiched together once it is attached. I went ahead and glued everything in place to make sure it didn't shift once I got everything centered.  [/url]
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Okay, you guys convinced me to go ahead and get the faster lens. I picked one up at Best Buy this morning. The zoom at 35mm does cut off some of the image circle. It pretty much has to be at 18mm to get the entire thing. No big deal. I can just crop it or leave it as is depending on what I'm trying to do. I'm sure it will come in handy for other stuff like video and non-night vision photography. I also made a better camera adapter that attaches to the existing threads on both the camera and PVS-14. This piece should make switching out camera lenses and NVD's a lot easier and it only cost me $6 in parts and about 10 minutes to make. https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5595/14879092387_59434b47b2_z.jpg Parts: - (1) 52mm UV filter ($5) - (2) Washers ($1) - (1) PVS-14 Eyepiece retaining ring (already had) - Super glue (already had) https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3921/15042637586_52ebba8e5c_z.jpg https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5591/14879060158_a73a7570df_z.jpg https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5591/14878994930_3de987ccf3_z.jpg To make the adapter: 1. I broke the glass lens and removed it from the UV filter (turns out I could have just unscrewed the retaining ring). 2. Unscrewed the retaining ring, inserted the washers and glued them in place 3. Screwed in the UV filter lens retaining ring on top of the washers and tightened it down 4. Inserted the PVS-14 eyepiece retaining ring in the middle of the washers and secured it with some glue The glue isn't necessary, especially if you get the right size washers, because everything will be sandwiched together once it is attached. I went ahead and glued everything in place to make sure it didn't shift once I got everything centered. https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3906/15065924305_1e052c04aa_z.jpg[/url] https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5578/14879217447_46fd2dec9c_z.jpg Quoted:
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Now for that 35/1.8 get it for personal non night vision use, it is a killer lens Quoted:
A faster lens would certainly help some. Like PBJ, you could stop-down two full stops and still be at f/4. However, on an APS dSLR the FoV crop would probably cut off some of the image circle. At what MM does your zoom begin to crop the circle? If you can set it at 35mm and still see the entire circle, then I'd say go for the prime you listed above. Also, it will open up options to you for normal photography. It's two stops faster than your zoom at maximum aperture, which is great for indoor / available-light work without having to dive too deep into the ISO pool. That, and it's cheap for what you get. Okay, you guys convinced me to go ahead and get the faster lens. I picked one up at Best Buy this morning. The zoom at 35mm does cut off some of the image circle. It pretty much has to be at 18mm to get the entire thing. No big deal. I can just crop it or leave it as is depending on what I'm trying to do. I'm sure it will come in handy for other stuff like video and non-night vision photography. I also made a better camera adapter that attaches to the existing threads on both the camera and PVS-14. This piece should make switching out camera lenses and NVD's a lot easier and it only cost me $6 in parts and about 10 minutes to make. https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5595/14879092387_59434b47b2_z.jpg Parts: - (1) 52mm UV filter ($5) - (2) Washers ($1) - (1) PVS-14 Eyepiece retaining ring (already had) - Super glue (already had) https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3921/15042637586_52ebba8e5c_z.jpg https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5591/14879060158_a73a7570df_z.jpg https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5591/14878994930_3de987ccf3_z.jpg To make the adapter: 1. I broke the glass lens and removed it from the UV filter (turns out I could have just unscrewed the retaining ring). 2. Unscrewed the retaining ring, inserted the washers and glued them in place 3. Screwed in the UV filter lens retaining ring on top of the washers and tightened it down 4. Inserted the PVS-14 eyepiece retaining ring in the middle of the washers and secured it with some glue The glue isn't necessary, especially if you get the right size washers, because everything will be sandwiched together once it is attached. I went ahead and glued everything in place to make sure it didn't shift once I got everything centered. https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3906/15065924305_1e052c04aa_z.jpg[/url] https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5578/14879217447_46fd2dec9c_z.jpg I am impressed as hell right now. |
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Really beautiful pictures, thank you - they are truly awesome - It's been a while since someone posted some trip photo's up on the board :) And great photography too - Did you remove the eyecup holder before fitting? David. Thank you for the kind words! I usually leave off the eyecup and eyecup holder/retaining ring when I use the PVS-14 because it obscures the full field of view. When I made the new adapter, I secured the eyecup retaining ring to the washers with glue so I wouldn't have to re-center it each time I attach it. I'm thinking about using a router or dremel to remove the inner ridge on the eyecup retaining ring to open things up a bit. 
Inner ridge: 
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Forgive me if this is a dumb question, I am new in the PVS-14 game and I really want to build one of these for my video camera with a 30mm filter size.
Does the Eyepiece retaining ring have threads that screw into the eyepiece? The only tech manual that I have found mentions epoxying the ring onto the eyepiece. If it is threaded and not epoxied, will removing it open the system and lose the nitrogen purge? Love the pics and thanks for the great idea. Gringop |
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Forgive me if this is a dumb question, I am new in the PVS-14 game and I really want to build one of these for my video camera with a 30mm filter size. Does the Eyepiece retaining ring have threads that screw into the eyepiece? The only tech manual that I have found mentions epoxying the ring onto the eyepiece. If it is threaded and not epoxied, will removing it open the system and lose the nitrogen purge? Love the pics and thanks for the great idea. Gringop Thanks! All of my single battery PVS-14's have removable eyecup retaining rings with threads. On the one dual-battery housing I have the ring is permanently attached, but not sure if that's true for all dual battery housings. No, the threaded ring simply screws off and you will not lose your nitrogen purge. |
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Rich, Exceptional images, just as you have produced in the past. The creativeness of the adapter is also very impressive. So now that you have been working with filmless, what do you find to be the downsides/limitations when compared with thin filmed? Thanks John! Honestly, besides price, I can't see any true downsides to filmless tubes. There are a few differences, though, that some people may consider to be negatives. The ion strikes seem to be more pronounced compared to thin-filmed tubes and some people may find that off-putting. It doesn't really bother me and I'm guessing that one of the reasons the ion strikes are more noticeable is due to the reduction in other sources of noise present in the tube. Another difference I have noticed with the two filmless tubes I have is that the autogating whine is considerably louder, which would probably annoy some people. Again, not a big deal to me. Aside from what I've mentioned, I can't really think of anything else, especially now that the other "issues" regarding reduced MTTF and susceptibility to recoil damage appear to have been debunked. So, all things considered, it really comes down to whether the slight increase in performance justifies the additional cost. If I was looking for the absolute best and had an unlimited budget I would choose filmless every time. While that's not the case for me, I've been lucky enough to find some deals and I've been really happy with them so far. I made a video comparing the filmless tubes to my other Gen 3 tubes and I will post that in my comparison thread in a little bit. |
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Yup. I'm in Longview, but we know some people who live out there. It's crazy how many deer and hogs are in that area. Quoted:
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Holly Lake Ranch outside hawkins? That's about 15 minutes from me. Yup. I'm in Longview, but we know some people who live out there. It's crazy how many deer and hogs are in that area. No joke. They won't let you hunting out there and it's a crying shame. They are really causing some genetic problems out there. |
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Yup. I'm in Longview, but we know some people who live out there. It's crazy how many deer and hogs are in that area. Quoted:
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Holly Lake Ranch outside hawkins? That's about 15 minutes from me. Yup. I'm in Longview, but we know some people who live out there. It's crazy how many deer and hogs are in that area. It has been a few years since I have ridden the Toyo-Heep up at BMRA; is it still open? |
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It has been a few years since I have ridden the Toyo-Heep up at BMRA; is it still open? Quoted:
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Holly Lake Ranch outside hawkins? That's about 15 minutes from me. Yup. I'm in Longview, but we know some people who live out there. It's crazy how many deer and hogs are in that area. It has been a few years since I have ridden the Toyo-Heep up at BMRA; is it still open? I've only been in East Texas for a few years so I actually hadn't heard of that place, but it sounds awesome. I've been up to Camp Gilmont though, which is right across the road from there. |
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It has been a few years since I have ridden the Toyo-Heep up at BMRA; is it still open? Quoted:
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Holly Lake Ranch outside hawkins? That's about 15 minutes from me. Yup. I'm in Longview, but we know some people who live out there. It's crazy how many deer and hogs are in that area. It has been a few years since I have ridden the Toyo-Heep up at BMRA; is it still open? Barnwell mountain? Yes, it's still open. |
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