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Posted: 6/4/2007 10:50:05 AM EDT
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Ok, I'm in the process of selling 'cans' to the admin. We are about to get a unit for T&E but of course there are still nay-sayers (bean counters who usually decide things with their head up their butt). I've had to quell several concerns but I want to make sure I have all the 'data' when speaking on certain subjects. For one, I know suppressors will often increase the accuracy of a weapon...but can you tell me in scientific terms why (with an explanation that someone not familiar with firearms can understand). Two, explain "first round pop" and why it's important when picking out a good can. other issues are welcome too.....limitations created...benefits created...etc. Thanks |
| I think your admin is not technical staff, so all this would be pointless, I think you would do better to show them info that larger depts. chose this product, often depts. just follow the trend of the day of what the FBI, local SWAT is doing rather than doing actual research. They are going to care about cost, and if they can get dept. of Homeland Security to pay for it. |
They know enough to ask questions....and when your answer is "uh, other dept's do it" they will shit can the proposal....even if it was something as common sense as wearing life jackets on a boat. By the way, can you describe 'first round pop' and why the bullet will impact 'impact more accurately'? As to the second, I've always understood it as the gases having less effect on the round as it leaves the barrel due to it's dissapation through the baffels. In a 'normal' barrel the gas will cause more disturbance and create instability at the mouth of the barrel. Is this right?....anyone? |
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FRP: There is unburned oxygen in a can before the first shot, and the first shot burns this oxygen. Thus the first round through a can is usually louder (ca. 3-8 dB, depending on the can in question) than the rest. Accuracy: In general, cans increase accuracy in two ways: a) reduce violent gases behind the bullet, allowing for a more uniform dissipation b) the weight on the end of the barrel reduces "barrel whip" by improving the harmonic characteristics of said bbl. ^^^The above are generalized statements regarding quality suppressors. Poor-quality suppressors can actually decrease accuracy, etc. |
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I was playing with my new can this weekend, I noticed it did help my accuracy some. I been working on my pistol shooting, with the can I was killing pears no problem. About 1st round pop, after round 1 is fired what is the average time until 1st round pop noise increase would occur again if the gun is left unshot. |
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Its becoming more and more common for Entry Teams to go into buildings with mouthful of water spit in the suppressors first. This basically eliminates the first round pop, as well as any sparks/flame which could ignite your common meth lab.... ETA: - a good point to make to the admins is who they want calling the media after a shootings? Odds are if you go in suppressed, you'll be the ones making the call instead of everyone else on the street. I also know a Dept that went with detachable, so the media wouldnt have them on film walking around looking like (as the chief said) "Mossad".. |
Hopefully they are spitting into an unloaded gun. Sure would not be a good story if they are spitting into a can and get an accidental discharge... Not saying you are wrong, but I would hope there is a better way! |
Please elaborate as to the science and technique of this......This is a big concern and selling point as recently we've had two entries where the bad guy dosed the building in gasoline and vapor was everywhere...a 'flash' from a barrel igniting the gases was a HUGE concern. I would imagine water in the action/breech could be a bad thing....how does one effectively 'shoot a can wet'. What is the science of why it's more quiet and less flash with it 'wet' Thanks! |
The "spit" goes in the back before the can is attached to the weapon 
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Just like with a pistol suppressor, the water cools the gasses and stuff(I'm not the scientist with the fancy details  ). I fill with water, drain and shoot. Vid of shooting a wet suppressor |
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Think of it like this: Command and Control: You can hear your team mates and your radio over the gunfire. Hearing damage: Permanent hearing damage comes from unsuppressed fire indoors with a rifle Identification Friend/Foe: Suppressed fire is friendly. Unsuppressed is enemy. Flash/signature: Meth labs start fires. People shoot at muzzle flashes in the dark. Flash blind is a real possibility and then you can't see what you are shooting at. Practical accuracy: It doesn't help mechanical accuracy that much...the gun does what it can. It helps people accuracy because noice instinctively scares shooters. It takes away the things that make us bad shots like recoil, flash, and noise. It makes human beings more able to shoot well. |
You might also want to play up the safety aspects of this one, including things like OHSA noise exposure limits for employees. |
You're kidding right? How about because shooting inside a house and blowing your eardrums out is not kosher....or setting a meth lab or house soaked in gasoline fumes up in a firey explosion is generally considered to be poor 'neighboring'. Ever shoot a .308 inside a house with no hearing protection?....I have, it hurts. |
Thats what 100 dollar game ears are for. If the tactical concerns are noise, electronic ears work, are cheaper, and don't increase the length of the weapon. On top of that, noise impairs the abilities of assailants and occupants. Maybe you've heard of the flashbang? |
We tried a more expensive version....didn't work, interferes with radio traffic and was just not a workable solution. Flashbangs are good, but work against good guys just as well as bad guys (lot's of stories of the 'new guy' looking in the room were the 'bang' was tossed. Nothing like walking into a potential firefight blinded. Seriously, the pros of a suppressed weapon far outweigh the cons. |
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When it comes to LEOs, I want them to have as many options as possible. When I call 911, I want someone who can respond in a fashion more advanced than what I can offer. If not, I might as well just wait and call the coroner. Something I haven't seen listed as a reason to use them, especially for an entry team, is that if all members have suppressed weapons, then you know it ain't the good guys. That falls under command and control or mission awareness. Also, whether PC or not, suppressed weapons can be utilized to eliminate lights that cannot be turned off by conventional means. They can be used to quietly eliminate guard dogs. The safety aspect alone should be enough to sell it to administrators. One officer/citizen who sues for hearing damage would cover the cost of all the cans the department would ever need. One officer/citizen killed because the entry team ignited a fire in an apartment complex while taking down a meth lab, there's your can money spent again. I am glad LEO6223 is making the effort to get his guys the good gear they need. I hope you succeed at this. |
I figure the cops should have as much right to quality gear as me. :) |
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Reasons our local LEOs (including DNR) are buying cans: Reduction of flash and spark. This is necessary for entry teams busting meth labs (which are becoming a bigger problem here). Sound reduction protects officer hearing. The bean counters down here don't like paying for that hearing loss and it has happened to several of our local PDs. One SWAT member lost hearing when the guy behind him in the stack (they were preparing to breach) let loose a burst off his unsuppressed MP5 right next to the guy's ear. County got hit with a nice bill for that. You might want to research Europe's workplace standards for people who work with firearms (like LEOs). The weapons must be suppressed for hearing safety. I'll see if I can find the specifics on it. I had a lot of detail at one point. Polite way of dispatching animals. We've had DNR guys using suppressed weapons to thin the deer herds in areas very close to residential areas. I know of some departments that have used suppressed weapons to take out "guard dogs" at known drug hang outs prior to making entry. Same with rabid or dangerous animals; they can be taken out without drawing too much attention. I've heard guys say suppressed weapons could be used to take out street or other lights prior to an entry, but know of no specific situation where that in fact has happened. For the sniper guys, a suppressor will reduce felt-recoil making follow-up shots faster and possibly more accurate (faster back on target?). A good sound suppressor is the best flash suppressor. For night operations that is critical to the operator. I'd hate to know that the cop who was trying to save me (say I'm a hostage) just got blinded by the flash of the first round and is now shooting, well, blindly! Go suppressed. Your hostages will thank you! (And you'll actually hear them thanking you!)  Reduction of noise in urban areas is appreciated because not as many innocent folks in the area are alerted to the gunfire. At least I've heard some officers say this. Regarding FRP, guys in local SWAT teams will sometimes keep wire pulling lube in thier cans. It is what I keep in my 9mm pistol can I use as a secondary home defense weapon. The pistol can sit on the nightstand for a long time with that goo in the can without causing problems and it won't evaporate. Just a thought. Hope this helps in some way. If I can find any of the information I collected when we were pitching cans to a local PD, I'll forward it to you. Thanks for your service. Stay safe. Mark |
+1 This is why I have cans on my home protection firearms. Well not so much the meth reason.  If I am unfortunate enough to ever need to use my guns to defend my family/home, these are the reasons I will give when I get anally probed for the next nine months over some decision I will have to make in a split second.I also have flashlights on all my home defense firearms. |
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