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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fixed!!! Amazing results. Got a new rifle, won't reliably chamber my handloads. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/10/2022 9:16:22 PM EDT
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Hello Folks, I got a new higher end rifle and about every third to sixth round gets stuck about 1/3" out of battery. It gets stuck very hard. Mortaring does nothing. There is just enough room to get a screwdriver tip (uuuggggg I know) to gently pry and open it up. As you can see the round doesn't seat when dropping a round in the chamber. The inside of the chamber looks ok but my near sighted vision has taken a shit in recent years. I case gauge all my ammo and double checked some of the ammo that failed to feed. All of it case gauges good. This is my 12th AR and I have been loading for years. Looks like this chamber just might be a little tight. What say you?   
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Thanks for the suggestion. The rifle is a Geissele Super Duty. Looks beautiful. Best fit and finish of anything I own. Yes it will chamber the 2 factory rounds I have. I painted my handload that wouldn't chamber with a sharpie and you can see where it is getting hung up. Factory ammo measures .369 and my handloads measure .370 at that point where the sharpie mark shows scuffs. If it is a problem with my ammo as it appears I will ask them to ream the chamber on my dime. The rifle will never see a factory round if I can help it. Lol, yes. The Autotrickler is a wonderful machine. It has really helped load development since it replaced my RCBS 1500.   
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Quoted: Start with a sized case, ensure it will chamber and eject normally. If not, the sizing die must be lowered. I hope you understand "cam over". Of course. I try not to work the brass more than I have to but leave an extra margin for reliability. Look at the case gauge. It easily fits flush. |
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Quoted: You need a small base die. It is made specifically to address the problem you are having. Mighty Armory This is what I am using. It has reliably fed 20,000 rounds in several AR's with no issues at all. |
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Quoted: Of course. I try not to work the brass more than I have to but leave an extra margin for reliability. Look at the case gauge. It easily fits flush. You shooting a gauge or a rifle? 
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That case is clearly not sized enough. Why it fits in your case gauge and not your chamber should point out that the gauge was probably not made with a chambering reamer. I had the same issue with some once fired .308 cases that were shot out of M-14s, and I wanted to use them in my bolt action Barnard Palma rifle. I used an RCBS precision mic to bring the cartridge headspace back to zero, but the ass end of the cases were not sized enough to let the bolt close on a sized case. I had to use a small base body die to get them to chamber in the bolt gun. B |
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A lot of those drop in gages are for headspace shoulder to case head dimension and intentionally loose in circumference. Try another die or buy the small base. Dillon .223 are all small base from what they say. Edit, looking again at your inked up cartridge I later noticed a hard scrape on the neck besides the belly of the case body scuffing. You might investigate that as well. |
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Quoted: Doesn't matter what the case gauge "says". The rifle chamber is telling you to size more. You shooting a gauge or a rifle? I came here to say this ^ Not all chambers are going to be the same as a case gauge. Did the makers of the case gauge chamber your rifle? I have my doubts. |
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Quoted: I came here to say this ^ Not all chambers are going to be the same as a case gauge. Did the makers of the case gauge chamber your rifle? I have my doubts. That is amazing. I assumed a case gauge insured your hand loaded ammo was within specification. This is from LE Wilsons website. The "Wilson Case Gage" A one piece gage that will check overall length and indicate min/max case length Measures min/max Headspace. Does not measure body diameters This gage is intended to be used with fired cases to determine a basis for full length sizing and case trimming Are they wrong? What am I missing? An AR15 barrel is made to a 223/556 standard, right??? This is not a custom made one off custom chambered barrel. My 2 White Oak barrels all shoot this ammo just fine. |
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Quoted: That is amazing. I assumed a case gauge insured your hand loaded ammo was within specification. This is from LE Wilsons website. The "Wilson Case Gage" A one piece gage that will check overall length and indicate min/max case length Measures min/max Headspace. Does not measure body diameters This gage is intended to be used with fired cases to determine a basis for full length sizing and case trimming Are they wrong? What am I missing? An AR15 barrel is made to a 223/556 standard, right??? This is not a custom made one off custom chambered barrel. My 2 White Oak barrels all shoot this ammo just fine. That gauge may be to spec, as well might be the chamber, but to the opposites of tolerance. Tolerance stacking in reverse? |
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I checked the SAAMI specs for 223 Rem. The allowable cartridge dimensions* are 0.3679" to 0.3759" diameter. Your fired brass, at 0.3705" diameter is in spec. The SAAMI chamber diameter* spec is 0.3769" to 0.3771" diameter. So, if the piece of brass is actually round, measures 0.3705" and does not fit, your chamber is out of spec (too small in diameter near the bolt face). If it were me, I'd send the upper back and have the chamber brought into spec. As a reloader, you also have the option to resize your brass until it fits. The thing is, you may have trouble with any non-custom ammo jamming the rifle. That's why I'd get it fixed. * Both SAAMI diameters are spec'd 0.200" in front of the case head or bolt face. |
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Quoted: I checked the SAAMI specs for 223 Rem. The allowable cartridge dimensions* are 0.3679" to 0.3759" diameter. Your fired brass, at 0.3705" diameter is in spec. The SAAMI chamber diameter* spec is 0.3769" to 0.3771" diameter. So, if the piece of brass is actually round, measures 0.3705" and does not fit, your chamber is out of spec (too small in diameter near the bolt face). If it were me, I'd send the upper back and have the chamber brought into spec. As a reloader, you also have the option to resize your brass until it fits. The thing is, you may have trouble with any non-custom ammo jamming the rifle. That's why I'd get it fixed. * Both SAAMI diameters are spec'd 0.200" in front of the case head or bolt face. Location OP is measuring is difficult to reliably and repeatable measure on a tapered casing. The fact that the chamber is chambering factory ammo just fine but not the reloads, indicates its is the reloads that are the problem. The case gage is correct for headspace (or should be, at least), but oversized for case-body diameter dimension. New chamber is tight, but I would not conclude it's out of spec if it's feeding factory brass just fine. |
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Your chamber is reamed to SAAMI minimum. Factory ammo loads and functions. Your hand load cases (using brass from other guns) have been properly re-sized using a full-length die. Shoulder has been pushed to proper base-to-shoulder datum line and drops into a headspace gage. Your full-length die probably sizes the case to a middle dimension between minimal and maximum body diameter -- which is larger than your minimum chamber diameter. You can turn the die in tighter, which will push your shoulder back more. It may or may not change your body diameter. Your Dykem or Sharpie-blackened case shows where they are binding and not fully dropping into your chamber. Your chamber is the ultimate gage -- if the cartridge is not fully chambering (allowing the bolt to lock) and dropping out under gravity when you raise the muzzle it's too fat. A small base die will bring your case diameter closer to factory minimum diameter. You may not need it again after the first small-base sizing. Who doesn't like shooting factory ammo? If it feeds flawlessly, that could be your clue. |
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Quoted: Location OP is measuring is difficult to reliably and repeatable measure on a tapered casing. The fact that the chamber is chambering factory ammo just fine but not the reloads, indicates its is the reloads that are the problem. The case gage is correct for headspace (or should be, at least), but oversized for case-body diameter dimension. New chamber is tight, but I would not conclude it's out of spec if it's feeding factory brass just fine. Factory ammo is always below SAAMI spec in the case dimensions, IME. OP, measure out 0.200" from case head and measure there. That's where SAAMI specifies the diameter I gave. |
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The chamber is tight, no doubt. Send it back. You don't want reliability issues with any ammo that is slightly out of spec. I've seen one chamber this tight and it was a match 223 chamber on a bolt action. The gun shot amazing but you could never reload brass that was fired in an AR without running it through a Dillon carbide die first. Even a Mighty Armory die wasn't enough, and I love that die. |
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Quoted: Factory ammo is always below SAAMI spec in the case dimensions, IME. OP, measure out 0.200" from case head and measure there. That's where SAAMI specifies the diameter I gave. Quoted: Quoted: Location OP is measuring is difficult to reliably and repeatable measure on a tapered casing. The fact that the chamber is chambering factory ammo just fine but not the reloads, indicates its is the reloads that are the problem. The case gage is correct for headspace (or should be, at least), but oversized for case-body diameter dimension. New chamber is tight, but I would not conclude it's out of spec if it's feeding factory brass just fine. Factory ammo is always below SAAMI spec in the case dimensions, IME. OP, measure out 0.200" from case head and measure there. That's where SAAMI specifies the diameter I gave. Sure, but OP's issue is related to handloads. If it runs factory ammo - that's the test. No manufacturer is going to warrantee against handloads. Here's the Geisselle owners manual: 1.3 AMMUNITION 1.3.1 ALWAYS USE PROPER AMMUNITION FOR YOUR FIREARM • Always use high quality factory loaded ammunition from a reputable manufacturer https://geissele.com/amfile/file/download/file/f43f0e29c2b0bf9c8d393ed3211d0903/ They might go ahead and bore out his chamber anyway, as an above and beyond, customer service item all the same. If OP wants to deal with the time and expense of pulling things apart and shipping back, and then waiting the 6-8 weeks (or whatever), for them to do it and send it back, and hope they don't botch the rechambering job or the leade throat any. Or. $25 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000N8LIOQ?tag=arfcom00-20 Problem solved. The reality is OP was tuning his ammo dimensions to work in loser pre-existing guns. Now he's got a new gun, with a tight match-like chamber, and they don't fit. This happens all the time, I've had plenty of stoppages on the firing line from just this, combined with learning the hard-way that all brass has a resizing "spring back" coming back out of the die (this I did not know), and that this varies from head-stamp to headstamp (euro brass being the worst), and even how many cycles the brass has been fired. This is a simple alternation of manufacturing practices step, that most everyone eventually has to go through. |
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Quoted: ... OP's issue is related to handloads. If it runs factory ammo - that's the test. No manufacturer is going to warrantee against handloads. Geisselle ... might go ahead and bore out his chamber anyway, as an above and beyond, customer service item all the same. If OP wants to deal with the time and expense of pulling things apart and shipping back, and then waiting the 6-8 weeks (or whatever), for them to do it and send it back, and hope they don't botch the rechambering job or the leade throat any. Or. $25 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000N8LIOQ?tag=arfcom00-20 Problem solved. ... OP was tuning his ammo dimensions to work in looser pre-existing guns. Now he's got a new gun, with a tight match-like chamber, and they don't fit. This happens all the time, I've had plenty of stoppages on the firing line from just this, combined with learning the hard-way that all brass has a resizing "spring back" coming back out of the die (this I did not know), and that this varies from head-stamp to headstamp (euro brass being the worst), and even how many cycles the brass has been fired. This is a simple alternation of manufacturing practices step, that most everyone eventually has to go through. Quoted: ... OP's issue is related to handloads. If it runs factory ammo - that's the test. No manufacturer is going to warrantee against handloads. Geisselle ... might go ahead and bore out his chamber anyway, as an above and beyond, customer service item all the same. If OP wants to deal with the time and expense of pulling things apart and shipping back, and then waiting the 6-8 weeks (or whatever), for them to do it and send it back, and hope they don't botch the rechambering job or the leade throat any. Or. $25 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000N8LIOQ?tag=arfcom00-20 Problem solved. ... OP was tuning his ammo dimensions to work in looser pre-existing guns. Now he's got a new gun, with a tight match-like chamber, and they don't fit. This happens all the time, I've had plenty of stoppages on the firing line from just this, combined with learning the hard-way that all brass has a resizing "spring back" coming back out of the die (this I did not know), and that this varies from head-stamp to headstamp (euro brass being the worst), and even how many cycles the brass has been fired. This is a simple alternation of manufacturing practices step, that most everyone eventually has to go through. Quoted: I case gauge all my ammo and double checked some of the ammo that failed to feed. All of it case gauges good. This is my 12th AR and I have been loading for years. Looks like this chamber just might be a little tight. Quoted: ... it will chamber the 2 factory rounds I have. I painted my handload that wouldn't chamber with a sharpie and you can see where it is getting hung up. Factory ammo measures .369 and my handloads measure .370 at that point where the sharpie mark shows scuffs. If it is a problem with my ammo as it appears I will ask them to ream the chamber on my dime. The rifle will never see a factory round if I can help it. Quoted: Doesn't matter what the case gauge "says". The rifle chamber is telling you to size more. You shooting a gauge or a rifle? Quoted: The chamber is tight, no doubt. Send it back. You don't want reliability issues with any ammo that is slightly out of spec. I've seen one chamber this tight and it was a match 223 chamber on a bolt action. The gun shot amazing but you could never reload brass that was fired in an AR without running it through a Dillon carbide die first. Even a Mighty Armory die wasn't enough, and I love that die. Are you using this rifle as a precision gun or blaster? Not that it matters, I suppose, but a full-blown Geissele makes for an expensive noise-maker. You have two very simple options: send it back to have a larger finish reamer run through it, or get an RCBS small base die. Adjusting the Mighty Armory die lower may or may not work (it looks like you're slightly shorter than minimum headspace here): Attached File |
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Quoted: This is from LE Wilsons website. The "Wilson Case Gage" A one piece gage that will check overall length and indicate min/max case length Measures min/max Headspace. Does not measure body diameters This gage is intended to be used with fired cases to determine a basis for full length sizing and case trimming Are they wrong? What am I missing? An AR15 barrel is made to a 223/556 standard, right??? This is not a custom made one off custom chambered barrel. My 2 White Oak barrels all shoot this ammo just fine. The Wilson gauge that you have IS NOT a "case" gauge. It's a headspace gauge. This gauge is intentionally over-sized in the body diameter to allow fired cases to be inserted to check fired headspace. The gauge on the left below is what you have. The gauge on the right is what you need.  .... |
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I took a few of my loaded rounds that have been roll sized and then loaded with a Dillon Carbide die (a touch smaller than an RCBS BS die) and put some dykem on them. They all had a slight scuff on the bottom 1/2 inch or so from chambering. I ran them through tight NM chambers and loose GI Colt and FN barrels. All had some scuffing. However they all went in and out just fine. Even my 308 ammo gets a little scuff when going in my gas and bolt guns. |
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This is why I love this forum. Thank you everyone for helping me with this problem. I started loading .223 for the AR platform back around 2009 and have loaded countless thousands without any major problems. The only real problem I had was case head separations on 2 rounds of hot (26g Varget) 69g SMK using 5x fired Lake City brass. Learning from that I am now tossing them after the 4th firing. Hopefully Geisselle will check the chamber and see if it is undersized or if it is just me. If I have 10 factory rounds 6 will fall right in but the other 4 need a gentle push to fully seat with a clean chamber. Thanks Molon for showing me the difference between the case and headspace gauges. I didn't even know there was a difference. Thanks again everyone, you rock!!!! I will report back when I hear from Giesselle. |
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Why would you send it back to Geissele? People already told you what the issue is, your case is not sized enough. If you screwed your die all the way into the press so it was tight on the shell holder and the ram cammed over but the sized case is not chambering, then you need a SMALL BASE DIE. A regular sizing die can bring the headspace of the case back to zero as you have shown by it fitting in your gauge, but that's not the dimension that is causing your problem. It's the area right above the head of the case. You can get a Redding small base Body Die or better yet a Redding Small Base Bushing Neck die. Either one will work. B |
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Quoted: Why would you send it back to Geissele? People already told you what the issue is, your case is not sized enough. If you screwed your die all the way into the press so it was tight on the shell holder and the ram cammed over but the sized case is not chambering, then you need a SMALL BASE DIE. A regular sizing die can bring the headspace of the case back to zero as you have shown by it fitting in your gauge, but that's not the dimension that is causing your problem. It's the area right above the head of the case. You can get a Redding small base Body Die or better yet a Redding Small Base Bushing Neck die. Either one will work. B Because I have about 40,000 cases sized and primed. If I can ream the barrel slightly it will be easier than segregating this barrel to brass that is sized just to accommodate this barrel. At the end of the day I strongly suspect this barrel is tighter than it should be. |
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Quoted: Because I have about 40,000 cases sized and primed. If I can ream the barrel slightly it will be easier than segregating this barrel to brass that is sized just to accommodate this barrel. At the end of the day I strongly suspect this barrel is tighter than it should be. And if it’s got a snug chamber, even running some “hotter” factory ammo in it could pose some problems It’s worth letting Geissele take a look at it just to be on the safe side. I’d rather send it in and have it checked especially if it’s a rifle I’ll be depending on for years and years |
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Geissele is having me send the upper back. On Molon's suggestion I purchased the proper .223 minimum case gauge. All the ammo that wouldn't feed in the rifle fits with room to spare in the gauge. So am I correct not to assume, but to know the chamber in my rifle is out of specification as long as the gauge is in spec? The comment in the paperwork has me a bit confused. I am learning here so please be gentle. Sammy  
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Quoted: And if it’s got a snug chamber, even running some “hotter” factory ammo in it could pose some problems It’s worth letting Geissele take a look at it just to be on the safe side. I’d rather send it in and have it checked especially if it’s a rifle I’ll be depending on for years and years Quoted: Quoted: Because I have about 40,000 cases sized and primed. If I can ream the barrel slightly it will be easier than segregating this barrel to brass that is sized just to accommodate this barrel. At the end of the day I strongly suspect this barrel is tighter than it should be. And if it’s got a snug chamber, even running some “hotter” factory ammo in it could pose some problems It’s worth letting Geissele take a look at it just to be on the safe side. I’d rather send it in and have it checked especially if it’s a rifle I’ll be depending on for years and years Glad you are sending it back. There are some that would stand by their beloved brand and accuse you of being wrong, than admit that G may have made a mistake in manufacturing. |
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Quoted: This is why I love this forum. Thank you everyone for helping me with this problem. I started loading .223 for the AR platform back around 2009 and have loaded countless thousands without any major problems. The only real problem I had was case head separations on 2 rounds of hot (26g Varget) 69g SMK using 5x fired Lake City brass. Learning from that I am now tossing them after the 4th firing. Hopefully Geisselle will check the chamber and see if it is undersized or if it is just me. If I have 10 factory rounds 6 will fall right in but the other 4 need a gentle push to fully seat with a clean chamber. Thanks Molon for showing me the difference between the case and headspace gauges. I didn't even know there was a difference. Thanks again everyone, you rock!!!! I will report back when I hear from Giesselle. That’s no bueno that some factory won’t fit. They should all drop right in with a satisfying “plunk” type noise. They should fall back out when muzzle up, no more than a gentle smack on the butt. Exactly what factory do you have? Just making sure you’re not comparing with rusty old Tula. Also, I too thank Molon for the difference in gauges. I was not aware that the typical “case gauge” only measured headspace. I had always ASSumed they were supposed to be cut as a minimum chamber. Never heard of anyone using them with unsized cases, just as a check for sized. |
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Quoted: Glad you are sending it back. There are some that would stand by their beloved brand and accuse you of being wrong, than admit that G may have made a mistake in manufacturing. I didn't see any Geissele fan boys in this thread, just people trying to help him understand why his resized cases don't fit. Rather than spending the $ on another case gauge, he could have picked up a small base die and tried resizing a few cases and see if they fit. Also nobody is going to run a chamber reamer into a chrome lined barrel to fix it. I suspect all those barrels are forged with the chamber already in the blank. B This is a Technical Forum, please don't go looking for problems when there are none. Leave all that drama in GD where it belongs. Thanks, dryflash3 |
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Quoted: Also, I too thank Molon for the difference in gauges. I was not aware that the typical “case gauge” only measured headspace. I had always ASSumed they were supposed to be cut as a minimum chamber. Never heard of anyone using them with unsized cases, just as a check for sized. I never said that "typical" case gauges only measured headspace. I said the LE Wilson "case" gauge that the OP was using is a headspace gauge meant for checking the headspace of fired cases. The LE Wilson headspace gauge was designed to work with a micrometer top to accurately measure the headspace of fired cases. (shown on the far right in the pic below)  ... |
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Quoted: I never said that "typical" case gauges only measured headspace. I said the LE Wilson "case" gauge that the OP was using is a headspace gauge meant for checking the headspace of fired cases. The LE Wilson headspace gauge was designed to work with a micrometer top to accurately measure the headspace of fired cases. (shown on the far right in the pic below) https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/headspace_gauges_003-2422145.jpg ... Understood. Although typically, we see guys on here using that model as their reference. No? |
| What does the fired brass look like, could possibly be a rough spot in the chamber. I’m not trying to bash anyone but geissle just started making their own barrels, and with market conditions everything gun related is a rush/high demand right now. Missing a step in QA/QC is very possible. They should do your right if you send it to them. Honing the chamber is a fairly drastic step for an AR assembler like 99% of us are. Proceed with caution if you go this route. You can take metal out but not put it back in of you go too far. |
| This would not be the first, and unfortunately will not be the last bad barrel from Geissele after the numerous reports of QC issues this year. The chamber does seem to be cut incorrectly. Hopefully they can replace or repair the barrel, and neat that you were able to diagnose it with proper gauges. |
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It took about 3 weeks but I got the upper back with a new barrel. I asked for an explanation of the problem and got this message: Good Morning Sam, Thank you again for your patience and your support of our business. I apologize for the delay in communication, we have been working through a high volume of requests due to our recent 4th of July sale. It took us more time than anticipated to do our final inspection, and I do apologize for the further delay and inconvenience, but this was handed over to our shipping team today to get it out the door. I will relay the tracking information as soon as it becomes available. Regarding the issue with the barrel, some processes at our facility can be proprietary and customer service is not always keyed into what exactly that may be. However, we did do a 100% check down and function check with the replacement barrel. Again, I'll check back in once I have a tracking number. Let me know if there is anything else I can do to assist at this time. Thank you, Jason I got to take the rifle out today and put about 70 flawless rounds through it. It was 100% flawless and turns out to have amazing accuracy potential. These were shot at 100 yards front and rear bag. I can't wait to run load development to see it's full potential. Thanks Geissele for the great rifle. Was worth the wait.    |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Fixed!!! Amazing results. Got a new rifle, won't reliably chamber my handloads. (Page 1 of 2)
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