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Posted: 9/13/2013 4:43:21 PM EDT
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I bought a stripped 5.56 lower from a local guy and got the green stamp on the form 4 (it's properly engraved). Someone told me today that when I build on the stripped lower, that I have to get an ATF form 1 filled out with the caliber, barrel length, etc....
All these freakin forms confuse me (which is, of course, what they want us to be), and I'm not sure what any of them are for. What is the form 4 and form 1? Can I just put any barrel length and any caliber I want as it is now (approved with the Form 4 stamp)? thanks for all the help in advance. Chris McCollum |
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Your stripped lower transferred to you on a Form 4? Meaning it had already been built as an SBR, then torn down, and sold to you as just the lower?
If that's the case, then you should be able to build at will, with no additional Form 1. The Form 1 is if you take a Title I receiver (one that has never been registered as an SBR) and create (manufacture, build, etc.) a previously non-existent SBR. ETA: Form 1 is for a tax-paid creation (building, manufacturing, etc.) of a new NFA item by a non FFL/SOT Form 2 is notification form for FFL/SOT to register a new NFA item after manufacture. Form 3 is for a tax-free transfer of an existing NFA item between dealers/manufacturers (with the proper SOT designation) Form 4 is for a tax-paid transfer of a currently existing NFA item. Form 5 is for a tax-free transfer of an existing NFA item to or from the government or through an estate. |
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Your stripped lower transferred to you on a Form 4? Meaning it had already been built as an SBR, then torn down, and sold to you as just the lower? If that's the case, then you should be able to build at will, with no additional Form 1. The Form 1 is if you take a Title I receiver (one that has never been registered as an SBR) and create (manufacture, build, etc.) a previously non-existent SBR. ETA: Form 1 is for a tax-paid creation (building, manufacturing, etc.) of a new NFA item by a non FFL/SOT Form 2 is notification form for FFL/SOT to register a new NFA item after manufacture. Form 3 is for a tax-free transfer of an existing NFA item between dealers/manufacturers (with the proper SOT designation) Form 4 is for a tax-paid transfer of a currently existing NFA item. Form 5 is for a tax-free transfer of an existing NFA item to or from the government or through an estate. So can I out any caliber and any barrel length on my Form 4 stripped lower? |
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So can I put any caliber and any barrel length on my Form 4 stripped lower? The Form 4 does have your name on it, correct? The Form 4 will also list the caliber and barrel length under which it was registered and transferred. If you vary from that permanently, you need to send a letter to the ATF about the change. Now, if the Form 4 is in the other guys name (meaning not yours) then it's not really valid and you are potentially in possession of an NFA item that's not yours unless it was removed from the registry (at which point it's a title 1 arm and the Form 4 means nothing) If the Form 4 and stamp are in your name, then you are good to go to build as stated on the form or to build up differently and notify the ATF of the change, as far as I know, however, it's odd that it would transfer that way, usually it's complete rifles that are transferred on form 4's. For the engraving, is it your name that's engraved or the shop/previous owner or the original manufacturer? |
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The Form 4 does have your name on it, correct? The Form 4 will also list the caliber and barrel length under which it was registered and transferred. If you vary from that permanently, you need to send a letter to the ATF about the change. Now, if the Form 4 is in the other guys name (meaning not yours) then it's not really valid and you are potentially in possession of an NFA item that's not yours unless it was removed from the registry (at which point it's a title 1 arm and the Form 4 means nothing) If the Form 4 and stamp are in your name, then you are good to go to build as stated on the form or to build up differently and notify the ATF of the change, as far as I know, however, it's odd that it would transfer that way, usually it's complete rifles that are transferred on form 4's. For the engraving, is it your name that's engraved or the shop/previous owner or the original manufacturer? Quoted:
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So can I put any caliber and any barrel length on my Form 4 stripped lower? The Form 4 does have your name on it, correct? The Form 4 will also list the caliber and barrel length under which it was registered and transferred. If you vary from that permanently, you need to send a letter to the ATF about the change. Now, if the Form 4 is in the other guys name (meaning not yours) then it's not really valid and you are potentially in possession of an NFA item that's not yours unless it was removed from the registry (at which point it's a title 1 arm and the Form 4 means nothing) If the Form 4 and stamp are in your name, then you are good to go to build as stated on the form or to build up differently and notify the ATF of the change, as far as I know, however, it's odd that it would transfer that way, usually it's complete rifles that are transferred on form 4's. For the engraving, is it your name that's engraved or the shop/previous owner or the original manufacturer? My trust is named as the Transferee. The guy I bought it from has his trust's name engraved on it. It is listed as being "5.56" and barrel length of 12". So is that all I can build with it? I'd like to make a .300 blackout in 10" or 5.56 in 10" if I want.... |
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My trust is named as the Transferee. The guy I bought it from has his trust's name engraved on it. It is listed as being "5.56" and barrel length of 12". So is that all I can build with it? I'd like to make a .300 blackout in 10" or 5.56 in 10" if I want.... Ok, good, I was worried there. Since its on a form 4 and was already built as described, you can change that, but you need to send a letter to the ATF about the permanent change. No big deal really. Just decide what you want and build it. Once you have gotten everything finalized, just mail them a letter about the change so they can update their records. Send two copies of the letter and ask for a return confirmation of the record update and keep it with the form 4. It will take a while to get the return letter. |
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Ok, good, I was worried there. Since its on a form 4 and was already built as described, you can change that, but you need to send a letter to the ATF about the permanent change. No big deal really. Just decide what you want and build it. Once you have gotten everything finalized, just mail them a letter about the change so they can update their records. Send two copies of the letter and ask for a return confirmation of the record update and keep it with the form 4. It will take a while to get the return letter. Quoted:
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My trust is named as the Transferee. The guy I bought it from has his trust's name engraved on it. It is listed as being "5.56" and barrel length of 12". So is that all I can build with it? I'd like to make a .300 blackout in 10" or 5.56 in 10" if I want.... Ok, good, I was worried there. Since its on a form 4 and was already built as described, you can change that, but you need to send a letter to the ATF about the permanent change. No big deal really. Just decide what you want and build it. Once you have gotten everything finalized, just mail them a letter about the change so they can update their records. Send two copies of the letter and ask for a return confirmation of the record update and keep it with the form 4. It will take a while to get the return letter. That's good. So anytime I change up the configuration in any way, I just write them a little letter and say, "My SBR lower serial #blahblahblah has been changed to a 2" phase blaster. Thanks for muddying up the 2A and giving me "permission" to exercise my constitutional rights." Sound right? there's no formal "ATF Letter" form? I'm shocked! chris |
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You only need to notify if the change is permanent. If you keep the 10" 300blk upper (and notify the atf) and later build up a 8" 5.56 or. 2" 6.8, no need to notify again as you have the config that the ATF expects you to have.
Likewise, if you built a 12" like on the form and build a 10" 300blk, no need to notify as you have the 12" like on the form. |
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You only need to notify if the change is permanent. If you keep the 10" 300blk upper (and notify the atf) and later build up a 8" 5.56 or. 2" 6.8, no need to notify again as you have the config that the ATF expects you to have. Likewise, if you built a 12" like on the form and build a 10" 300blk, no need to notify as you have the 12" like on the form. Gotcha. Thanks a lot for all your expertise and info. It really helps! Chris |
| An AR does not have a permanent configuration. Once its an sbr you can change uppers all you want. There is no requirement to keep any particular upper, nor is there a need to bother the atf with letter or notification. You have a legal sbr and thats all that matters. |
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Wow.
You have a very serious problem that I dont think you quite see... It appears you have received a Title I firearm through a Title II transfer. A stripped receiver does not meet the definition of a "short barreled rifle" and thus does not fall under the NFA. You, the transferree, could be committing another felony by adding a short barrel to this stripped receiver. In transferring a registered Title II firearm in Title I configuration, the SOT has deregistered the SBR. Legally you would need to re-register the receiver on a Form 1 in order to have the SBR you think you bought to begin with. This is precisely why stripped receivers cannot be transferred as SBRs. They don't meet the definition and by process they become deregistered. Even more, the Form 4 does not reflect the actual state of the firearm at the time of transfer. This could present serious legal problems if the SOT was trying to falsely maintain the Title II status of a firearm in order to make a sale more attractive by keeping the price low. This could be a felony under the right (or wrong) circumstances since a sworn statement was signed on the Form 4 attesting to the correctness of the data. If the Form 4 indicated a barrel length, then it also described a caliber and OAL as well, none of which is true. You have compounding problems here, OP. The Form 4 is not only inaccurate to the gun actually transferred, but it's no longer an SBR either. That particular Form 4 undid what it set out to do.... |
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Gotcha. Thanks a lot for all your expertise and info. It really helps! Chris Quoted:
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You only need to notify if the change is permanent. If you keep the 10" 300blk upper (and notify the atf) and later build up a 8" 5.56 or. 2" 6.8, no need to notify again as you have the config that the ATF expects you to have. Likewise, if you built a 12" like on the form and build a 10" 300blk, no need to notify as you have the 12" like on the form. Gotcha. Thanks a lot for all your expertise and info. It really helps! Chris Not much of this is accurate either. Most of this is invented, non-existent regulation. There is no requirement whatsoever to notify ATF of any changes, permanent or otherwise. There is also no requirement to maintain or retain the registered configuration. You may sell, trade or otherwise dispose of the upper and acquire others. The Form 1 and Form 4 are merely snapshots of a configuration during a taxable event under the NFA: Making an NFA firearm and transfer of an NFA firearm. In neither case is that configuration required to be maintained since the ATF has no authority to regulate that firearm outside of those two specific actions, with the addition of interstate transport. This is to be taken in the context of a general NFA firearm, which is not what you are describing in this thread. |
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Wow. You have a very serious problem that I dont think you quite see... It appears you have received a Title I firearm through a Title II transfer. A stripped receiver does not meet the definition of a "short barreled rifle" and thus does not fall under the NFA. You, the transferree, could be committing another felony by adding a short barrel to this stripped receiver. In transferring a registered Title II firearm in Title I configuration, the SOT has deregistered the SBR. Legally you would need to re-register the receiver on a Form 1 in order to have the SBR you think you bought to begin with. This is precisely why stripped receivers cannot be transferred as SBRs. They don't meet the definition and by process they become deregistered. Even more, the Form 4 does not reflect the actual state of the firearm at the time of transfer. This could present serious legal problems if the SOT was trying to falsely maintain the Title II status of a firearm in order to make a sale more attractive by keeping the price low. This could be a felony under the right (or wrong) circumstances since a sworn statement was signed on the Form 4 attesting to the correctness of the data. If the Form 4 indicated a barrel length, then it also described a caliber and OAL as well, none of which is true. You have compounding problems here, OP. The Form 4 is not only inaccurate to the gun actually transferred, but it's no longer an SBR either. That particular Form 4 undid what it set out to do.... Hey said it got it from a local guy so there wouldn't be a SOT involved, just a F4. |
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Are you sure what you have is a form 4? Did you pay the ATF $200 and wait 6-8 months for approval? Does it say "ATF Form 4 (5320.4)" in the lower right corner? If not that is not a form 4. This is what it should look like: http://www.terma-nator.com/images/guns/Stamped-atf-form4-Uzi.jpg Maybe I'm missing something, but how was that F4 approved across state lines? I would have thought it would have went on a F3 then F4? I have only ever dealt with F1s and local F4 |
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Hey said it got it from a local guy so there wouldn't be a SOT involved, just a F4. Quoted:
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Wow. You have a very serious problem that I dont think you quite see... It appears you have received a Title I firearm through a Title II transfer. A stripped receiver does not meet the definition of a "short barreled rifle" and thus does not fall under the NFA. You, the transferree, could be committing another felony by adding a short barrel to this stripped receiver. In transferring a registered Title II firearm in Title I configuration, the SOT has deregistered the SBR. Legally you would need to re-register the receiver on a Form 1 in order to have the SBR you think you bought to begin with. This is precisely why stripped receivers cannot be transferred as SBRs. They don't meet the definition and by process they become deregistered. Even more, the Form 4 does not reflect the actual state of the firearm at the time of transfer. This could present serious legal problems if the SOT was trying to falsely maintain the Title II status of a firearm in order to make a sale more attractive by keeping the price low. This could be a felony under the right (or wrong) circumstances since a sworn statement was signed on the Form 4 attesting to the correctness of the data. If the Form 4 indicated a barrel length, then it also described a caliber and OAL as well, none of which is true. You have compounding problems here, OP. The Form 4 is not only inaccurate to the gun actually transferred, but it's no longer an SBR either. That particular Form 4 undid what it set out to do.... Hey said it got it from a local guy so there wouldn't be a SOT involved, just a F4. That makes me feel better about SOTs, but the issues still remain with equal severity. It was improperly transferred and it's no longer a legally registered SBR. Unfortunately, there is no recourse. The transfer has occurred and cannot be undone. Guy can hopefully get the seller to pay for the additional stamp, but the guy waited a long time only to have it all fall apart in the very last moment. That pain cannot be rectified. |
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Maybe I'm missing something, but how was that F4 approved across state lines? I would have thought it would have went on a F3 then F4? I have only ever dealt with F1s and local F4 Quoted:
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Are you sure what you have is a form 4? Did you pay the ATF $200 and wait 6-8 months for approval? Does it say "ATF Form 4 (5320.4)" in the lower right corner? If not that is not a form 4. This is what it should look like: http://www.terma-nator.com/images/guns/Stamped-atf-form4-Uzi.jpg Maybe I'm missing something, but how was that F4 approved across state lines? I would have thought it would have went on a F3 then F4? I have only ever dealt with F1s and local F4 I don't know, I just found the pic on the net to show this guy what a F4 looks like, just in case what he has is not a F4. |
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Your completely wrong about what your saying. If the guy indeed bought a form 4 transferred previously SBR lower receiver it is still a SBR registered receiver whether the seller stripped it down and sold it to him that way or not.
It's the same thing as a regular lower rec being considered the firearm when it's in stripped form. Before you can sell a lower receiver that has been previously SBR'd on a form 1 you have to have it removed from the registry. Which means that even though he sold the SBR'd stripped receiver in stripped from without an upper it's still considered a SBR through the ATF. The reason the paperwork still have the barrel length and such is because it was that way on the previous from 1 and has to be transferred on the form 4 the same way. That doesn't however mean because you strip the upper off it's no longer a registered SBR. LOOK it up. |
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Your completely wrong about what your saying. If the guy indeed bought a form 4 transferred previously SBR lower receiver it is still a SBR registered receiver whether the seller stripped it down and sold it to him that way or not. It's the same thing as a regular lower rec being considered the firearm when it's in stripped form. Before you can sell a lower receiver that has been previously SBR'd on a form 1 you have to have it removed from the registry. Which means that even though he sold the SBR'd stripped receiver in stripped from without an upper it's still considered a SBR through the ATF. The reason the paperwork still have the barrel length and such is because it was that way on the previous from 1 and has to be transferred on the form 4 the same way. That doesn't however mean because you strip the upper off it's no longer a registered SBR. LOOK it up. This. If the rifle was built and registered on a F1, and then transferred to the OP on a F4, just because it's stripped doesn't mean it's not a Title II weapon. It may be in Title I configuration, but unless and until you you specifically notify ATF that it's been permanently reconfigured in Title I configuration, the "firearm (i.e. serialed lower) it remains on the books as a legally registered Title II NFA weapon. SBRs are an interesting animal in that they can, depending on just what length upper is on them at the moment, be in either status. You can travel interstate without filing a 5320.20 for an SBR with a 16"+ upper on it and be perfectly legal. But you better not put a short upper on it at your destination. But until you notify ATF that it's permanently been reconfigured to Title 1 status it remains an SBR, regardless of what upper (if any) or LPK is on it. And then (and only then) can it be transferred without a F3, F4, or F5. ATF won't remove it from the registry, but they will note in the registry that it's no longer a Title II weapon. |
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This. If the rifle was built and registered on a F1, and then transferred to the OP on a F4, just because it's stripped doesn't mean it's not a Title II weapon. It may be in Title I configuration, but unless and until you you specifically notify ATF that it's been permanently reconfigured in Title I configuration, the "firearm (i.e. serialed lower) it remains on the books as a legally registered Title II NFA weapon. SBRs are an interesting animal in that they can, depending on just what length upper is on them at the moment, be in either status. You can travel interstate without filing a 5320.20 for an SBR with a 16"+ upper on it and be perfectly legal. But you better not put a short upper on it at your destination. But until you notify ATF that it's permanently been reconfigured to Title 1 status it remains an SBR, regardless of what upper (if any) or LPK is on it. And then (and only then) can it be transferred without a F3, F4, or F5. ATF won't remove it from the registry, but they will note in the registry that it's no longer a Title II weapon. Quoted:
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Your completely wrong about what your saying. If the guy indeed bought a form 4 transferred previously SBR lower receiver it is still a SBR registered receiver whether the seller stripped it down and sold it to him that way or not. It's the same thing as a regular lower rec being considered the firearm when it's in stripped form. Before you can sell a lower receiver that has been previously SBR'd on a form 1 you have to have it removed from the registry. Which means that even though he sold the SBR'd stripped receiver in stripped from without an upper it's still considered a SBR through the ATF. The reason the paperwork still have the barrel length and such is because it was that way on the previous from 1 and has to be transferred on the form 4 the same way. That doesn't however mean because you strip the upper off it's no longer a registered SBR. LOOK it up. This. If the rifle was built and registered on a F1, and then transferred to the OP on a F4, just because it's stripped doesn't mean it's not a Title II weapon. It may be in Title I configuration, but unless and until you you specifically notify ATF that it's been permanently reconfigured in Title I configuration, the "firearm (i.e. serialed lower) it remains on the books as a legally registered Title II NFA weapon. SBRs are an interesting animal in that they can, depending on just what length upper is on them at the moment, be in either status. You can travel interstate without filing a 5320.20 for an SBR with a 16"+ upper on it and be perfectly legal. But you better not put a short upper on it at your destination. But until you notify ATF that it's permanently been reconfigured to Title 1 status it remains an SBR, regardless of what upper (if any) or LPK is on it. And then (and only then) can it be transferred without a F3, F4, or F5. ATF won't remove it from the registry, but they will note in the registry that it's no longer a Title II weapon. From the ATF SBR/SBS FAQ I linked to above: Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)? While a receiver alone may be classified as a “firearm” under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A SBS consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length. The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR). Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm? There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax. |
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This. If the rifle was built and registered on a F1, and then transferred to the OP on a F4, just because it's stripped doesn't mean it's not a Title II weapon. It may be in Title I configuration, but unless and until you you specifically notify ATF that it's been permanently reconfigured in Title I configuration, the "firearm (i.e. serialed lower) it remains on the books as a legally registered Title II NFA weapon. SBRs are an interesting animal in that they can, depending on just what length upper is on them at the moment, be in either status. You can travel interstate without filing a 5320.20 for an SBR with a 16"+ upper on it and be perfectly legal. But you better not put a short upper on it at your destination. But until you notify ATF that it's permanently been reconfigured to Title 1 status it remains an SBR, regardless of what upper (if any) or LPK is on it. And then (and only then) can it be transferred without a F3, F4, or F5. ATF won't remove it from the registry, but they will note in the registry that it's no longer a Title II weapon. Quoted:
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Your completely wrong about what your saying. If the guy indeed bought a form 4 transferred previously SBR lower receiver it is still a SBR registered receiver whether the seller stripped it down and sold it to him that way or not. It's the same thing as a regular lower rec being considered the firearm when it's in stripped form. Before you can sell a lower receiver that has been previously SBR'd on a form 1 you have to have it removed from the registry. Which means that even though he sold the SBR'd stripped receiver in stripped from without an upper it's still considered a SBR through the ATF. The reason the paperwork still have the barrel length and such is because it was that way on the previous from 1 and has to be transferred on the form 4 the same way. That doesn't however mean because you strip the upper off it's no longer a registered SBR. LOOK it up. This. If the rifle was built and registered on a F1, and then transferred to the OP on a F4, just because it's stripped doesn't mean it's not a Title II weapon. It may be in Title I configuration, but unless and until you you specifically notify ATF that it's been permanently reconfigured in Title I configuration, the "firearm (i.e. serialed lower) it remains on the books as a legally registered Title II NFA weapon. SBRs are an interesting animal in that they can, depending on just what length upper is on them at the moment, be in either status. You can travel interstate without filing a 5320.20 for an SBR with a 16"+ upper on it and be perfectly legal. But you better not put a short upper on it at your destination. But until you notify ATF that it's permanently been reconfigured to Title 1 status it remains an SBR, regardless of what upper (if any) or LPK is on it. And then (and only then) can it be transferred without a F3, F4, or F5. ATF won't remove it from the registry, but they will note in the registry that it's no longer a Title II weapon. Neither of you are up on your regs and nor do you seem to understand how to fill out a Form 4 properly or legally. ATF does not allow transfer of SBR-registered lower receivers. This is not because they just don't want to, it's because it's a legal paradox. You fill out a Form 4 accurately describing a stripped receiver, it will be returned to you for correction and ultimately denied when they understand what you are trying to do. The only way to get an approval on this is to inaccurately describe the receiver as an SBR with a fictitious barrel length and caliber. This is illegal and is perjury if done willfully. An SBR without a short barrel attached or under your control is no longer an SBR and not NFA. This can be temporary, as in the example you mention, but if it is sold and transferred as receiver only, then it reverts to Title I automatically and permanently, and would require re-registration. Removing the features that make it an SBR and selling the receiver as a Title I firearm is perfectly legal and does not require pre-removal from the registry. The act itself removes it from the purview of the NFA. Removal from the registry is not required to render the gun Title I. This is the case here though done contrary to intention and by pure ignorance. Whether or not ATF discovers the discrepancy on the Form 4 or acts on it if they did is an enforcement issue, not an administrative one. |
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Neither of you are up on your regs and nor do you seem to understand how to fill out a Form 4 properly or legally. ATF does not allow transfer of SBR-registered lower receivers. This is not because they just don't want to, it's because it's a legal paradox. You fill out a Form 4 accurately describing a stripped receiver, it will be returned to you for correction and ultimately denied when they understand what you are trying to do. The only way to get an approval on this is to inaccurately describe the receiver as an SBR with a fictitious barrel length and caliber. This is illegal and is perjury if done willfully. [---------------------------]An SBR without a short barrel attached or under your control is no longer an SBR and not NFA[/---------------------------]. This can be temporary, as in the example you mention, but if it is sold and transferred as receiver only, then it reverts to Title I automatically and would require re-registration. Removing the features that make it an SBR and selling the receiver as a Title I firearm is perfectly legal and does not require pre-removal from the registry. The act itself removes it from the purview of the NFA. Removal from the registry is not required to render the gun Title I. This is the case here though done contrary to intention by pure ignorance. Whether or not ATF discovers the discrepancy on the Form 4 or acts on it if they did is an enforcement issue, not an administrative one. Quoted:
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Your completely wrong about what your saying. If the guy indeed bought a form 4 transferred previously SBR lower receiver it is still a SBR registered receiver whether the seller stripped it down and sold it to him that way or not. It's the same thing as a regular lower rec being considered the firearm when it's in stripped form. Before you can sell a lower receiver that has been previously SBR'd on a form 1 you have to have it removed from the registry. Which means that even though he sold the SBR'd stripped receiver in stripped from without an upper it's still considered a SBR through the ATF. The reason the paperwork still have the barrel length and such is because it was that way on the previous from 1 and has to be transferred on the form 4 the same way. That doesn't however mean because you strip the upper off it's no longer a registered SBR. LOOK it up. This. If the rifle was built and registered on a F1, and then transferred to the OP on a F4, just because it's stripped doesn't mean it's not a Title II weapon. It may be in Title I configuration, but unless and until you you specifically notify ATF that it's been permanently reconfigured in Title I configuration, the "firearm (i.e. serialed lower) it remains on the books as a legally registered Title II NFA weapon. SBRs are an interesting animal in that they can, depending on just what length upper is on them at the moment, be in either status. You can travel interstate without filing a 5320.20 for an SBR with a 16"+ upper on it and be perfectly legal. But you better not put a short upper on it at your destination. But until you notify ATF that it's permanently been reconfigured to Title 1 status it remains an SBR, regardless of what upper (if any) or LPK is on it. And then (and only then) can it be transferred without a F3, F4, or F5. ATF won't remove it from the registry, but they will note in the registry that it's no longer a Title II weapon. Neither of you are up on your regs and nor do you seem to understand how to fill out a Form 4 properly or legally. ATF does not allow transfer of SBR-registered lower receivers. This is not because they just don't want to, it's because it's a legal paradox. You fill out a Form 4 accurately describing a stripped receiver, it will be returned to you for correction and ultimately denied when they understand what you are trying to do. The only way to get an approval on this is to inaccurately describe the receiver as an SBR with a fictitious barrel length and caliber. This is illegal and is perjury if done willfully. [---------------------------]An SBR without a short barrel attached or under your control is no longer an SBR and not NFA[/---------------------------]. This can be temporary, as in the example you mention, but if it is sold and transferred as receiver only, then it reverts to Title I automatically and would require re-registration. Removing the features that make it an SBR and selling the receiver as a Title I firearm is perfectly legal and does not require pre-removal from the registry. The act itself removes it from the purview of the NFA. Removal from the registry is not required to render the gun Title I. This is the case here though done contrary to intention by pure ignorance. Whether or not ATF discovers the discrepancy on the Form 4 or acts on it if they did is an enforcement issue, not an administrative one. Show me where it says that it's illegal to transfer an already SBR'd receiver in stripped from? It's not that complicated. It's just that the ATF are as simple as they want everything filled out to a T with I"s dotted and T's crossed. It's not that it's illegal nor does it mean because that you remove the short barreled upper is the receiver no longer an NFA weapon. I would Like to see the regulations where it says that transferring a lower receiver that has been registered with the ATF on a form 1 can be sold as a regular receiver without removing it from the registry first. It's status with that specific serial number has been changed with you register it as a SBR. How can you sell it as a regular receiver without removing it first? When a background check is done on the weapon by let's say police or whatever, that serial number would show up under the NFA as a short barrel rifle and in my mind would cause you a lot of trouble if it wasn't transferred to you on a form 4. Didn't see the above post with the Q&A part. That seems like it could end up being a bad situation for anyone buying a receiver that was previously registered as a SBR. I wonder how this would apply to a factory SBR previously transferred on a form 4 than stripped down and sold to someone else. With it being built from the factory as a SBR and originally transferred on a form 4 would that be the same thing? Wouldn't these show up as registered NFA firearms and then wouldn't police or whoever ran the serial number be asking you for your NFA paperwork? Something just doesn't sound good about all this. The ATF has screwed a lot of people because of there screwy administrative skills and I for one would definitely not buy a previously NFA's firearm as a regular firearm without removing it from the registry. If you guys feel comfortable with that than go ahead. AS for the OP all he has to do is put the upper back on it and he's good to go. You saying that it has to be in the same form as the original paperwork to be transferred I still don't think it true because you can change length of uppers without notification to the ATF. So it may still be in SBR form but not the same length barrel as on the original paperwork. |
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Wow this thread is a mess. Homeinvader is right on the regs. An SBR is only an SBR if it is in its complete SBR form. You take all the parts of a lower it's not an SBR anymore and not subject to NFA. it did turn into a mess , and Homeinvader seems to be the only one thinking correctly. |
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OK, but what I'm seeing here is that you don't HAVE to transfer a stripped lower that is in the registry on a F4, you can just sell it as a Title I gun. And if the purchaser wants to "re-SBR" it, he has to file the F1 and all that.
But, the ATF Q&A notwithstanding, is there a regulation that says you CANNOT transfer a stripped SBR lower on a F4? As in, file the F4, wait for the stamp, then seller strips the rifle and sells just the lower? And it's more than a little disingenuous for ATF to say that a machinegun is always a machinegun, but an SBR is not always an SBR. That logic could lead to them saying that if at any time you put a long upper on an SBR, you then have to file a new F1 if you ever want to put a short upper on it (or hell, if you break it down for cleaning it's not an SBR, so you'd need to F1 it upon reassembly). |
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OK, but what I'm seeing here is that you don't HAVE to transfer a stripped lower that is in the registry on a F4, you can just sell it as a Title I gun. And if the purchaser wants to "re-SBR" it, he has to file the F1 and all that. But, the ATF Q&A notwithstanding, is there a regulation that says you CANNOT transfer a stripped SBR lower on a F4? As in, file the F4, wait for the stamp, then seller strips the rifle and sells just the lower? And it's more than a little disingenuous for ATF to say that a machinegun is always a machinegun, but an SBR is not always an SBR. That logic could lead to them saying that if at any time you put a long upper on an SBR, you then have to file a new F1 if you ever want to put a short upper on it (or hell, if you break it down for cleaning it's not an SBR, so you'd need to F1 it upon reassembly). ATF defines a machinegun as any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. An SBR is only an SBR when it has a short barrel on it. No mention is ever made of an SBR frame or receiver without a barrel And again from the ATF SBR/SBS FAQ website Q: May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel? Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA. Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS? A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer. |
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it did turn into a mess , and Homeinvader seems to be the only one thinking correctly. Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow this thread is a mess. Homeinvader is right on the regs. An SBR is only an SBR if it is in its complete SBR form. You take all the parts of a lower it's not an SBR anymore and not subject to NFA. it did turn into a mess , and Homeinvader seems to be the only one thinking correctly. I don't know about the "only" one. I have been posting info from the ATF website saying the same thing as Homeinvader all along. |
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I missed your points in all the arguing. These threads get me really fired up. Quoted:
Originally Posted By CAR-AR-M16
I don't know about the "only" one. I have been posting info from the ATF website saying the same thing as Homeinvader all along. I missed your points in all the arguing. These threads get me really fired up. I was just messing with ya  
I know what you mean about these threads. The constant amount of mis-information about NFA stuff is frustrating. |
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ATF defines a machinegun as any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. An SBR is only an SBR when it has a short barrel on it. No mention is ever made of an SBR frame or receiver without a barrel And again from the ATF SBR/SBS FAQ website Q: May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel? Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA. Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS? A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer. Quoted:
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OK, but what I'm seeing here is that you don't HAVE to transfer a stripped lower that is in the registry on a F4, you can just sell it as a Title I gun. And if the purchaser wants to "re-SBR" it, he has to file the F1 and all that. But, the ATF Q&A notwithstanding, is there a regulation that says you CANNOT transfer a stripped SBR lower on a F4? As in, file the F4, wait for the stamp, then seller strips the rifle and sells just the lower? And it's more than a little disingenuous for ATF to say that a machinegun is always a machinegun, but an SBR is not always an SBR. That logic could lead to them saying that if at any time you put a long upper on an SBR, you then have to file a new F1 if you ever want to put a short upper on it (or hell, if you break it down for cleaning it's not an SBR, so you'd need to F1 it upon reassembly). ATF defines a machinegun as any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. An SBR is only an SBR when it has a short barrel on it. No mention is ever made of an SBR frame or receiver without a barrel And again from the ATF SBR/SBS FAQ website Q: May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel? Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA. Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS? A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer. Ah HAH! That to me says that if you buy it as a Title I firearm you have to submit a F1 and pay the $200 if you want to SBR it. If, however, you buy it as a Title II firearm then you should be GTG. Note that the Q&A specifically says "there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel" it follows that there is no provision prohibiting it either. ETA, the only way to get any kind of definitive answer would be to write tech branch. WHICH I DO NOT RECOMMEND!! |
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I don't know about the "only" one. I have been posting info from the ATF website saying the same thing as Homeinvader all along. Quoted:
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Wow this thread is a mess. Homeinvader is right on the regs. An SBR is only an SBR if it is in its complete SBR form. You take all the parts of a lower it's not an SBR anymore and not subject to NFA. it did turn into a mess , and Homeinvader seems to be the only one thinking correctly. I don't know about the "only" one. I have been posting info from the ATF website saying the same thing as Homeinvader all along. sorry about that , you are correct. |
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