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Posted: 9/16/2008 7:43:36 AM EDT
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I'm just about ready to get started reloading. I've started to do all my reading and am starting to get an idea of what I'm getting into. I'm now at the point where I'm going to be making my equipment purchases and I must admit that the choices are kidna overwhelming. I plan on reloading .223 for plinking purposes and for SHTF. Any ideas or suggestions as to what I should be looking for. I know enough to know that the progressive reloaders are kinda advanced so I was gonna shy away from one of them, but other than that I'm not sure. I do have access to some friends who have done this for abit to help me get started, but I like to have all sortrs of info before I make my purchasing decisions. I should also note that I don't mind spending a little more now so I don't have to buy more stuff later. Thanks for any advice. |
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See the Resources at the top of the forum? Read there, I'll bet at least 90% of your questions about getting started will be answered. A couple of good places to start: www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=486 www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=503 |
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1) Reloading Manuals- at least 2 of them- Hornady, Sierra, Speer 2) read them 3) Buy RCBS Rock Chucker press kit - it will last a lifetime i cannot stress the usefullness of buying and reading the manuals- there is a wealth of information at your finger tips, some have really good illustrations to help understand the reloading process. RockChucker single stage press will learn you real good. as it does NOT have 3-5 functions happening at one time. It will allow you to really see and feel each and every round as you load. Kinda like walking before ya start running. In time you might be inclined to purchase a progressive press. |
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Part 1 To begin on your path to re-loading. My suggestions would be to........... Get a hold of some books and check the Internet. Invest in a re-loading manual (or several). LEARN the processes that one must go through in order to produce a round of ammunition. Get an idea of how certain jobs are done and take notes of the choices available to do the job. Get a mentor and/or go to classes that might be held by the local gun shop or gun club. Meanwhile, here are some good sites to learn from....... Safety….. hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aareloadsafetya.htm What you’ll need….. www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=33 Overview of the Handloading Ammo process….. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handloading Re-Loading Pistol Ammo….. www.reloadammo.com/relsteps.htm Re-Loading Rifle Ammo….. rifle-company.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=911 _______________________________________________ >KNOW THAT: Handloading comes with some RISK. An individual needs to gauge his or her own RISK TOLERANCE LEVEL to each situation in their life. What's acceptable to ME........may not be, to someone else. The Manual writers/publishers and editors, decide what's their safety margin and each will have their own threshold for safety. Load data between various manuals will vary. >KNOW THAT: Handloading is PART EXPERIMENTATION. Each manual contains many WARNINGS. One popular warning, is against making any “substitution” of components, as it may be dangerous. Try reading this subject: How do changing various components affect chamber pressure and velocity? www.frfrogspad.com/miscelld.htm#components Then..........from SPEER.......... 
So, what do you do, if you don’t have the exact re-loading components as mention in the book? IF you have a low risk tolerance level......perhaps, you’ll wait until you have the exact components? But, doing that isn’t always practical. For ME………..I'd take into consideration my RISK TOLERANCE LEVEL and maybe EXPERIMENT a little or not. I'd search my available resources and various internet web sites. Perhaps I’d even contact the manufacturer. I'd attempt to figure out a SAFE (acceptable to ME) plan of action, using the available data. ALWAYS REMEMBERING TO: Start low and work your way up. >LASTLY……..KNOW THAT: YMWV. Sometimes things work out and sometimes they don’t. Most re-loaders will not just "pick one" from the book or reproduce someone else’s load and expect, "the best results." They work up their loads because, they know, "YMWV." _______________________________________________ WARNING: My way of doing things may not be suitable to some of the other folks out there........so, take it for what it's worth.......this is/was, only my advice, which you got for FREE, so it's only worth that much (if anything at all). _______________________________________________ Aloha, Mark |
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PART 2 As a "first press," IMHO get a bench mounted single station press. LEARN the techniques and "problem solving" of re-loading. Later, IF/WHEN, you want more production......consider a progressive press. ________________________________________________ Forgive me for saying and please, "SOME OF YOU OUT THERE," don't take offense. But, for some folks it's best that they: "Learn to crawl before you walk, learn to walk before you run, learn to run before you drive or fly." Some, are smart enough to start with a progressive press and be happy. Some, come running to this forum, asking for help with their progressive press problems. Maybe, IF they had learned on a single station press, they would KNOW HOW to fix the problem. And, I'm not saying that it's BAD TO ASK for help. It’s just that, “YOU GOT TO KNOW YOUR LIMITATIONS.” ________________________________________________ The BUY LIST……… Your list should be individual to you. Buy the equipment needed to accomplish the job, at a price that YOU can afford. More than likely, there will be some amount of compromise involved. ________________________________________________ Say, you're re-loading military 5.56mm brass cases for your AR with a single station press........consider your choice(s) for: A re-loading manual (or several manuals). A Press. F/L Sizer Two Die set (or 3 die set). Shell holder. A way to clean dirty cases (liquid cleaner or tumbler/vibratory machine w/ media or a wipe down w/rag). A way to de-prime military cases (regular die or universal de-capper or hammer and anvil method). A way to de-crimp military cases (swage or ream). A way to prime cases (on press or off press). A way to lube cases (what lube and applied w/fingers or pad with lube or spray lube). A way to test your re-sized cases (case gauge or actual rifle chamber). Caliper (though, not absolutely needed if you use a case gauge). A way to trim cases (hand powered or motorized). A case de-bur/chamfer tool, if your trimmer didn't do it all in one pass. A way to measure and dispense powder (dippers or disk measure or hopper/dispenser). A way to weigh the powder (electronic or balance beam scale) Powder. Primers. Bullets. And cartridge cases. I feel that these basic tools and components will do, for simple ammunition production. Note that: The list above can be shortened or lengthened. Remember, there is more than one way to skin a cat. There are many other tools that one can purchase to do other specific jobs. It's up to YOU to choose which tools you need and which tools you want. Some tools are there to make a job simpler and some are there to hopefully make you "better" ammunition..........though, was the purchase absolutely necessary? Choose wisely. ________________________________________________ IF you're looking to go cheap (not a bad "cheap")..........IMHO, consider, "LEE." For dies.......use any brand (from a major mfn) that you like. They are basically, all of high quality. The differences are in the, "features and small parts." LEE makes good dies (and they give you a bonus: a shell holder and powder dipper w/load data chart). When re-loading bottle neck cases (.223/5.56mm) to be used in a semi auto, IMHO, buy the FULL LENGTH re-sizer, two die set. Generally, you don't need a SB die set (unless you run into trouble). IF, you want the LEE FCD they also have a three die set that includes it, for a little extra. When re-loading for straight walled pistol cases (9mm, 45 ACP, .38 Special, etc...), IMHO, buy the carbide, three die set. The carbide re-sizer will eliminate the need to lube cases. And, IF you want the LEE FCD, I believe that LEE has a four die set, for most of the popular calibers. _______________________________________________ ASSUMING, that you purchase a single stage press. Basically (For non-crimped primer pocket, rifle brass, say a batch "lot" of a 100 cases): 1) Inspect and clean the cases- a liquid bath in hot water and dish soap, will get them clean. Though, not shiny. Or, you could just wipe the cases off with a solvent dampened rag. IF you want, clean with some shine……Birchwood Casey Case Cleaning Solution (#33845 CCI) is a fast and cheap way. Mix with water (follow the directions on the package) soak the brass, drain and dry. Save the solution as it can be re-used. 2) Set up your press with the shell holder and de-capper/FL re-sizer die. 3) Lube the cases. LEE lube (#90006) can be applied with fingers. Or, buy a spray on lube from one of the "other brands." 4) Then, run some test cases through the die, it'll de-cap/re-size the brass in one pass. 5) Next, using a case gauge, check the brass to ensure that the proper re-size, has been achieved. Insert a case into the case gauge. The headstamped end of the case, needs to be at or between the high and low cuts on the gauge, to pass. This checks the headspace. While the other end, is used to check if the case will need to be trimmed (a job for later on). IF, it’s not the “correct size,” your die setting will need adjustment. Lower the ram and simply screw the die in or out a little. Don’t forget about the lock nut. Then, re-size another couple of test cases and check your work again. Repeat the test and adjustments, as needed. *IMHO…………"the secret" to re-loading a bottle neck cartridge is a case gauge. There are many different brands and ways to gauge your re-loads. I use a Forster Products case gauge (the Wilson or Dillon case gauges are also popular choices). Examples of various gauges…….. www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=REMTHT&type=store 6) When you're satisfied that your test cases are properly re-sized, do the entire lot. 7) Trimming brass. Remember the case gauge? Well, if your brass failed the gauge test, you will need to trim the brass. Or check the brass length with a caliper. The cheapest way to trim brass, is with the LEE case trimmer. You'll need the cutter & lock stub and shell holder & case length gauge tools. The assembled trimmer runs on hand power or with a drill. Once the trimming is done, use a chamfer/reamer tool (LEE #90109) to "knock off the edge" on the newly cut case necks. 8) Clean the brass to take off the lube.......repeat, Step #1. 9) Then, re-prime the cases with a new primer. The LEE auto prime hand tool makes fast work of this job. BTW, you'll need a special shell holder (not your reg. press shell holder) made especially for the LEE auto prime. OR........use your press mounted primer tool. 10) After the cases have been re-primed, place the cases in a loading block. 11) Using a simple powder measure, calibrate it to throw the weight of powder charge that you want. 12) Check the thrown weight with your scale. 13) When you're satisfied that the weight is "correct." Charge each of the cases with powder. 14) Next, remove the de-capper/re-sizer die from the press and replace it with the bullet seating die. Then, place the bullet on top of the opening of the case neck. Run the case w/bullet into the bullet seating die. 15) Inspect your rounds. You're done. ______________________________________________ IF you’re dealing with military cases (I’ll assume the primers are crimped)……..so, add these steps........... 2) With once fired military brass, this next step only has to be done once. You could de-cap primers with the standard de-cap/re-sizer die. Though due to the primer crimp, there is a high incidence of parts breakage. IMHO, de-cap the once fired military brass using either, a “universal” de-capper die or with a skinny nail/punch and anvil (with a hole in it, large enough for the old primer to fall out of, but still support the case rim). Or, buy the LEE military primer de-capper set (#90102-.30 cal., #90103-.22 cal.). Simply, run the nail/punch down through the case neck. The nail will enter the flash hole and rest against the old primer. Put the case on the anvil (old primer centered over the anvil’s hole). Then, with a hammer knock out the old primer, letting the old primer fall through the hole in the anvil. Yes, the military crimp is sometimes that stubborn. 3) Again, since we’re using once fired military brass, this next step has to be done only once. The primer crimp will need to be removed. The crimp gets either swaged or reamed/cut. My friend has a Dillon swage and I use a Lyman hand reamer/cutting tool. Both can do the job......one is cheaper. Lyman hand reamer (#7777785 Large, #7777784 Small). I do the crimp removal while watching TV. It's as simple as: pick up a case, insert the tool into the primer pocket and twist, remove case, next..... *Commercial cases, usually don't have a primer crimp to bother with. So, steps 2 and 3 can be omitted. Likewise, for the next time you load these “already treated” military cases. ________________________________________________ To adjust dies correctly.......see the link……. www.chuckhawks.com/adjust_reloading_dies.htm _______________________________________________ There are many LEE single station presses to choose from. www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/classic.html www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/rlpress1.html If you're in the market for a "kit." I like this one. www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/rlpress2.html#breech ________________________________________________ IMHO, a good compromise between a single station and a progressive is a Turret Press........ www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1217810820.1709=/html/catalog/turretpress.html ________________________________________________ NOTE: There are many ways to skin a cat. I tried to write this, keeping in mind a CHEAP WAY to do things. Thus, the choice of LEE products. Shop for your best prices. LEE products are frequently discounted. That being said, a good press will last a lifetime and then some. Be it a LEE or RCBS or whatever other brand. I bought a lot of my starter equipment, USED. And, I still have a lot of it. My first press was a used RCBS Jr. and I later traded it for a used RCBS Rock Chucker. My friend wanted a smaller press and it was a straight across trade. So, how could I refuse? Anyway, after a long time of using a single station press…………I up-graded. I bought a Dillon. Then later, three LEE M1000 presses (just for pistol calibers). Even after I got the progressive presses........well, just say that for ME, there will always be a job for the single station press on my bench. And, even IF (and/or WHEN) you get a progressive........you don't really gain that much IF you're re-loading bottle necked cases. BECAUSE, of the case prep steps (case lube, military primer crimps and trimming cases). However, a progressive press will REALLY SHINE when you're doing straight walled cases with carbide dies. _________________________________________________ Aloha, Mark |
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Sorry for the delay in getting back. I've been buisy watching Wall Street melt down. Makes me glad I don't have any money of significance tied up there. Looking around I'm looking at some of the RCBS kits at Cabelas. I guess one of my big questions is is there one manufacturer that stands out head and shoulders above any other? Here's what I'm looking at: RCBS Supreme Kit |
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WOW......that's a lot of $$$. BTW.........a used RCBS Rock Chucker Press is about $85 (last Gun Show). No shipping cost. And, they didn't sell......so, maybe the seller would have taken less? As for the rest of the stuff in the picture.........well, just say that my bench and my pocketbook is a little more on the "frugal side." But, I can still turn out good ammo. New vs. Used. RCBS Kit vs. "others" BOTTOM LINE: "Is it worth it, to YOU?" Aloha, Mark |
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No lies about that kit being expensive. It's the electronic scale and stuff that bulks the price, the analog system sells for about $230 ish. I've never read analog scales well so I admit to being interested in digital wherever available. Only drawback for SHTF is lack of electricity. The bonus is that I may be able to go halfsies with my dad cause I think he wants to do some reloading as well. he |
BTW........I own two Aimpoints......never owned an Eotech. IMHO, the mount that came with my first Aimpoint was useless. The guy who designed that piece of $#^% should have been fired. Aloha, Mark |
There's been some of that, Lee people love their Lees, Dillon people love their blue Koolaid, Horandy people love their Lock N' Loads, RCBS people will only give up their Rock Chuckers from their cold dead hands. I own a RCBS press and two Dillons, and dies and prep tools from Hornady, RCBS, and Dillon, and some Lee stuff like the trimmer and casting molds and pot and Factory Crimp dies. |
For single stage equipment, you can buy RCBS, Redding, Hornady, or Forster and be confident you'll be happy. If you buy LEE, you might be satisfied, and you might not. Progressive presses are a similar situation, but more complicated to sort through. One thing about a Dillon, if you have a question, there are so many in use that it's easy to get help. I think a manual advance RCBS Pro 2000 is a fine machine, and I'm interested in trying the new auto advance version. The Hornady AP is also a nice press, but I've used one only one time; it's like every other press, it's main weakness is primer feed. LEE progressives are common and the tweaks needed to keep them running are well known, but they fall into the same bucket as LEE single stage presses; you might like them fine, and you might not. I like the Redding T-7 turret press. There's something about the new Lyman turret I don't like, but I can't put my finger on what that is because I've never used one to load, just fooled with it in a store. |
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You mentioned you didn't mind spending an extra few bucks. That was the way I felt about reloading too. I hate to buy a tool then decide I need another. I purchsed what I considered "Best of Breed" solutions. My rig: Hornady Lock-n-Laod AP progressive press- $360 - Insert only one die and use it like a single stage until you get the hang of things. (1000- free bullets made that decision easy) RCBS ChargeMaster 1500- $279 - Digital scale and powder dispenser combo- I don't have time to fool with a trickler and beam scale. Itype in the charge I want and press the Dispense button. Redding 2400 case trimmer with micrometer- $114 - One word "repeatability". I note the mic settings for a given caliber, dial it in, and trim. Tumbler, I have the Lyman Dual something or the other. It came with a small and large(ish) bowles- $69 pick one that suits your reloading volume. Lyman Primer Pocket Uniformer- $8 - OK, I cheaped out here. I considered the Dillon Super Swage for removing crimps, but couldn't justify $100 for a tool that can't be much faster than an $8 tool. You'll also need several other small tools. Camfer/debur tool, dies, calipers, etc, etc, ... Don't forget the case gage for each caliber you intend to reload. Invaluable tool for speeding up case sorting and making sure you don't load a bunch of ammo that wont chamber. (Ask me how I know). As Mark likes to say... My .02, you got it for free.... I am new to reloading too (about 2 months so far). The above were my choices and I have no regrets. Bulldog |
That's a nice kit. RCBS is one of the top quality brands. Customer service is great. I use my Rockchucker a lot, and it's a great press. Do all my single stage loading on it. For my large volume calibers I have Dillon progressives. |
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"...the progressive reloaders are kinda advanced ..." If you can set-up a PC, monitor, speakers, and modem and connect to the internet, then you can set up and run a Dillon progressive reloader. Sugg: Dillon 550, Lyman DPS powder scale, Redding 223 dies with a Lee factory crimp at station number 4. You can then expand into other rifle or pistol calibers. Good Luck. Edit: I reload one case at a time when doing rifle (so does my brother and friend who both also own 550's). |
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ok. Still in research mode. I'm pretty sure I'll go with an RCBS kit, but I may go with the one without all the digital scales so it's cheaper. I picked up the RCBS infomercial DVD and a Barnes and Speer book this weekend. After watching the DVD I have to admit that I was really intrigued by the Progressive machine, not having to setup and remove all the dies and stuff every time you swap steps sounds kinda nice. The next thing I'm looking for is the "magic bullet". I'm shooting a Stag ar-15 M4, and I'm fairly sure it has a 1:9 twist, but i'll have to look again to be sure. Of all the commercial bullets I've shot recently I'm happy with is a PMC Bronze that is a 55gr FMJ-BT. That is my baseline goal. I've considered looking for a HPBT. I want a bullet that is cheap enough that I can get quantity so I can go put down that evil paper target, but I'd also like to have something else for SHTF and having to hunt who knows what for survival. Any words of advise? |
50 grain VMAX's and 52 grain Sierra MK's is the place to start. They'll both likely outshoot the bullet you tried already. |
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Jez, I have almost all of that kit, purchased separately. You might want to shop around a bit. Natchez Shooters Supply will have a sale that you can grab some of these items for a steal! Got the scale for less than $200 last time it was on sale. Listen to what these guys say, Mark, Areo, dryflash, know their shit! Don't forget this link too. www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=398 Good Luck and welcome to the sickness! 
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