Armory Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gun safe Question?!?! (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 11/27/2011 8:50:15 AM EDT
I want to buy a good quality Gun safe with fire protection and I don't really know who builds a good safe for a good price. If you have any knowledge about safes please share!!!
|
| Any safe is better then no safe, get the largest you can afford and able to get into your house. There is a safe that can be assembled inside your home which would make it much easier to install in a basement but I believe the cost was rather high. I remember reading on safes that the most important thing to do is keep it locked. But you would be surprised just how many are not locked the one time they need to be. |
|
Quoted:
I want to buy a good quality Gun safe with fire protection and I don't really know who builds a good safe for a good price. If you have any knowledge about safes please share!!! http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/46_Safes_andamp__Home_Security.html |
|
Tag for answers.
Been looking for a good safes too, I found this buyers guide on 6mmbr very helpful. The whole fire rating things is still confusing. Same with fire insulation techniques, I know just stuffing some gypsum board in-between the sheet metal is most common; however there are better techniques out there, exactly what I don't know... |
|
Quoted:
I've heard liberty was a good company but I have also heard to get at least 8 gauge steel from your safe and they use 12 gauge except their more expensive safes. I don't have that kind of dough!! Yes I would say at least 8 ga steel body is what I would be looking for but a well made 12 ga gun safe will likely keep the smash and grab guys out. If the crook is more motivated, a 12ga constructed gun safe won't keep them out for very long. Sturdy offers non-insulated safes that have 7ga bodies for a reasonable price. You can do your own fire protection fairly cheaply by either building a fire rated closet around it or directly encase it with fire rated drywall, gasketing and insulating the door from the inside (I did that for a while). Other than that, Dakota Safes (imported) offers a dry (ceramic fiber) fire insulator as Sturdy does and can be assembled in a location that might be difficult to get a fully constructed safe into such as a closet. |
|
I have this one, bought from TSC. For the money, it is a very good safe. Heavy, but not absurdly so. External hinges. 12 bolts on all 4 sides of the door. Enough of a fire rating to be useful.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/-1043297?cm_re=20111123-_-CNTR_COL_1-_-Product_Off_Price_Safe_1043297 |
|
Quoted:
I've heard liberty was a good company but I have also heard to get at least 8 gauge steel from your safe and they use 12 gauge except their more expensive safes. I don't have that kind of dough!! This is false, they use 12ga, 11ga, and 7ga on Liberty product. |
|
Liberty safes are good, just do not get the, Chinese models.
Link from Liberty |
|
Quoted:
I have this one, bought from TSC. For the money, it is a very good safe. Heavy, but not absurdly so. External hinges. 12 bolts on all 4 sides of the door. Enough of a fire rating to be useful. http://www.tractorsupply.com/-1043297?cm_re=20111123-_-CNTR_COL_1-_-Product_Off_Price_Safe_1043297 Ok, I just have to say. I shoot sporting clay too so I understand what your member's name is referring to. If you are an owner of a K80 Krieghoff, your gun safe is probably 1/20th of the price of that shotgun alone so if you have any other guns stored in it you are grossly under-protected with that Chinese made Winchester IMO. |
|
Realistically if he is looking at something cheap, most of their Chinese built safes are much higher quality than anyone elses Chinese made safes. |
|
Realistically if he is looking at something cheap, most of their Chinese built safes are much higher quality than anyone elses Chinese made safes.
There's only a small handfull of Chinese companies that are building and importing safes to the US market. Although there are some quality differences between certain brands, I wouldn't put Liberty's Chinese safes in the "much higher quality" than others category. I would say they are average. Decent quality, but nothing fancy. The nice thing about this, is that if you are willing to shop around, you can usually find the same or similar unit sold for less money under a non brand name that is built by the same manufacturer. |
|
Quoted:
Realistically if he is looking at something cheap, most of their Chinese built safes are much higher quality than anyone elses Chinese made safes.
There's only a small handfull of Chinese companies that are building and importing safes to the US market. Although there are some quality differences between certain brands, I wouldn't put Liberty's Chinese safes in the "much higher quality" than others category. I would say they are average. Decent quality, but nothing fancy. The nice thing about this, is that if you are willing to shop around, you can usually find the same or similar unit sold for less money under a non brand name that is built by the same manufacturer. There is no one else around offering the same exact safes built by Liberty's chinese manufacturer. The Quality of welding, metal finish work, exterior appearance, internal door finish work, and lock quality is not being duplicated by anybody from China in the Residential Security Container ranges. |
|
There is no one else around offering the same exact safes built by Liberty's chinese manufacturer.
I didn't say there were. Then again, why buy the exact same safe when you could spend the same amount and get one that's built better. The Quality of welding, metal finish work, exterior appearance, internal door finish work, and lock quality is not being duplicated by anybody from China in the Residential Security Container ranges.
Surely you joke. The same company cranking them out for Liberty is cranking them out for several other companies, on the same production line, with the same equipment, the same materials, and the same employees. There may be minor differences between what one company orders and the next, but the apperance, finish work, etc. is all pretty much the same. The lock quality? I don't know if you're referring to the Chinese lock that is always falling apart inside of them that has no additional relock or hardplate, or the S&G 6741 (which is very common on gun safes and low to mid priced commercial safes). The Chinese Liberties are by no means junk (that Chinese lock sure is), but they are cetainly not the best China has to offer, and many other companies offer Chinese safes of similar or better quality. |
|
Quoted: Surely you joke. The same company cranking them out for Liberty is cranking them out for several other companies, on the same production line, with the same equipment, the same materials, and the same employees. There may be minor differences between what one company orders and the next, but the apperance, finish work, etc. is all pretty much the same. The lock quality? I don't know if you're referring to the Chinese lock that is always falling apart inside of them that has no additional relock or hardplate, or the S&G 6741 (which is very common on gun safes and low to mid priced commercial safes). The Chinese Liberties are by no means junk (that Chinese lock sure is), but they are cetainly not the best China has to offer, and many other companies offer Chinese safes of similar or better quality. What would you suggest as a viable alternative? I'm trying to figure out a purchase right now. I've got the following units available locally in this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_46/356898_I_know_they_re_all_crappy_RSC_s__but_they_re_still_better_than_what_I_have_now___Which_one_.html |
|
Quoted:
There is no one else around offering the same exact safes built by Liberty's chinese manufacturer.
I didn't say there were. Then again, why buy the exact same safe when you could spend the same amount and get one that's built better. The Quality of welding, metal finish work, exterior appearance, internal door finish work, and lock quality is not being duplicated by anybody from China in the Residential Security Container ranges.
Surely you joke. The same company cranking them out for Liberty is cranking them out for several other companies, on the same production line, with the same equipment, the same materials, and the same employees. There may be minor differences between what one company orders and the next, but the apperance, finish work, etc. is all pretty much the same. The lock quality? I don't know if you're referring to the Chinese lock that is always falling apart inside of them that has no additional relock or hardplate, or the S&G 6741 (which is very common on gun safes and low to mid priced commercial safes). The Chinese Liberties are by no means junk (that Chinese lock sure is), but they are cetainly not the best China has to offer, and many other companies offer Chinese safes of similar or better quality. Liberty has hired inspectors at the factory that check the safes and made sure they are produced up to the specs they provide for the manufacturer overseas. They watch the production team and make sure they do things like continous weld the bodies, use the correct thickness steel, and specified fireboard for insulation. They do the same thing the summit group does with Dakota, Brahma, and Black Diamond. So, even though they come from the same factories, off the same assembly line, from the same employees, they are ALWAYS built to Liberties standards. |
|
they are ALWAYS built to Liberties standards
That may be true. A lot of safe importers have Chinese safes built to their standards. However, you said: The Quality of welding, metal finish work, exterior appearance, internal door finish work, and lock quality is not being duplicated by anybody from China in the Residential Security Container ranges.
And that's not true. There are several other imported safes built to the same or better standards. This also doesn't mean that a company's standards are good to begin with. Is a cheap Chinese lock that falls apart during normaly use be considered "quality" or a "high standard"? I would say that it's not, yet Liberty uses them. To their credit, they do fix them when they break under warranty, and even tend to provide a free lock when it's out of warranty. |
|
Right now I'm torn between the Fatboy, and the Patriot PS 50. The Fatboy seems to be the slightly heavier built, more secure unit. The Patriot is the 72" tall model, which I really like. What kind of real-world security difference are we looking at between the Liberty Patriot line, and the Eagle (including Fat Boy) line? If there's no real-world difference in security between the two, I'd rather have the taller (Patriot) unit... If there -is- a real world difference in security, then I'm torn...more secure, smaller Fatboy, or less secure, larger Patriot PS 50... |
|
Quoted:
they are ALWAYS built to Liberties standards
That may be true. A lot of safe importers have Chinese safes built to their standards. However, you said: The Quality of welding, metal finish work, exterior appearance, internal door finish work, and lock quality is not being duplicated by anybody from China in the Residential Security Container ranges.
And that's not true. There are several other imported safes built to the same or better standards. This also doesn't mean that a company's standards are good to begin with. Is a cheap Chinese lock that falls apart during normaly use be considered "quality" or a "high standard"? I would say that it's not, yet Liberty uses them. To their credit, they do fix them when they break under warranty, and even tend to provide a free lock when it's out of warranty. I don't agree at all. The Majority of the imports I come in contact with I find stitch welding on the body, door frame, and door. The welding can be seen through the paint finish, and the finishes are often times marred up by uneven grinding or bondo under them. The sheetrock inside the doors is all pasted in uneven with gaps in it. You find really large tolerances on things like door mechanism cams, handle shaft fitment into the cam, welding inside the door on the mechanism and the cam setup, The locks are mounted so the dials aren't straight, they put electronic locks on that have to use a key backup because of their failure rates, etc..... Hands down Liberty has the nicest, most consistent, and best finished import gun safes on the market. If you don't agree, then tell me who's are nicer. Those S&G Locks they offer are also an excellent lock. They are a lot better than any of the LG or Kaba product you find for dial locks on other safes. The S&G electronic locks they are using are also a very high quality lock (for being electronic). They are way better than the standard run of the mill LP's, Securams, and Kaba electronic locks. I see a lot less failures from the S&G product. I service and drill more LG dials, LP elocks, Securam elocks, and Kaba elocks than any of S&G's product combined. |
|
I don't agree at all
You don't have to agree with me. I have seen just about every one of those problems you describe with Liberty safes as well, and even have a few photos to back up my claims. There's no need to address every single issue, but LIberty doesn't have the Chinese safe market cornered. Hands down Liberty has the nicest, most consistent, and best finished import gun safes on the market. If you don't agree, then tell me who's are nicer.
You keep changing what you're saying. I think if you go through another version or two, I may start to agree with you. Those S&G Locks they offer are also an excellent lock.
The 6741 is an OK lock. It's pretty much an entry level unit. They are a lot better than any of the LG or Kaba product you find for dial locks on other safes.
I suppose this depends on which locks you're talking about. LaGard and Kaba (I'm sure you know the relationship) both make excellent locks. The S&G electronic locks they are using are also a very high quality lock (for being electronic). They are way better than the standard run of the mill LP's, Securams, and Kaba electronic locks.
In my opinion, Securams are junk. I haven't had any more problems with LP, or Kaba locks than I have with S&G units. Want to know what the most common lock I drill and/or replace under warranty is? I'll give you a hint: It has the number 6120 in it. I see a lot less failures from the S&G product. I service and drill more LG dials, LP elocks, Securam elocks, and Kaba elocks than any of S&G's product combined.
How many safes are you drilling a day/month/year? |
|
I didn't change anything I said, your just twisting things again.
I'm not twisting anything. I quoted you. Here is what you said again: The Quality of welding, metal finish work, exterior appearance, internal door finish work, and lock quality is not being duplicated by anybody from China in the Residential Security Container ranges.
You said, right there, in pretty plain language, that nobody is duplicating the quality of Liberty's Chinese safes. Is that not what you said? Mind telling me what safes are better?
I have a few in mind, but there's no need to muck up the thread at this point. We're still working on how high quality those Liberty safes are, and how many safes you're drilling open. Perhaps you could give us a list of the safes you've drilled in the last month, the locks which were on them, and the cause of the malfunction? If we're going to talk about one lock being good, and another being bad, it would be helpful to put some real life numbers to the discussion. To make it easier, we can limit the discussion to gun safes. |
|
Nope, I asked the question first, Who makes a better safe?
I am not interested in playing games with you. I still don't understand how I said two different things. If you keep this up, I am just gonna ignore you. I provided you with exact instances of things you can find wrong, why liberty has a lot less of those issues, and I was very specific as to the grounds of the comment I made. If you cannot disprove the comment please do not provide your input. |
|
I am not interested in playing games with you.
Nor am I with you. There are several Chinese safes of good quality. Liberty's Chinese safe is not high quality by any stretch. It's a typical Chinese gun safe, built to a price point, spec'd by Liberty. Perhaps you can explain the high quality shown in this photo: 
bac Mind telling me what safes are better?
Let's just start with 1. Bighorn, a Chinese import by Rhino Metals. It's not better because it's an all out better safe. It's better because you can get the same "high quality" for a lower price. That lower price also includes a slightly heavier built safe. |
|
Selectively quoting, and quoting things out of context in my book constitutes twisting things. People on here are not blind or stupid.
And that's all I'm going to say. I see you've come into yet another thread with a personal attack instead of contributing anything to the thread itself. He said that nobody has duplicated the quality of Liberty's Chinese safes. I'm not taking anything out of context, twisting, being blind, or stupid. Liberty didn't invent the way the Chinese build things. The fact is China will build anything you want. If I wanted to copy a Chinese Liberty, down to the name painted on the door, I could find a company in China that would do it. If I was willing to buy more of them than Liberty, I could probably get the company that's currently building them to do it. The Chinese will do anything you're willing to pay them to do with this stuff. Even Liberty has Chinese Liberty safes better than other Chinese Liberty safes. Does this mean they surpassed their own quality? You can get trash or treasure from China, it all comes down to price point. If you want a $500 safe, you can get one. If you want a $10,000 safe you can get one. The quality will be better on the $10,000 version. Speaking of blind or stupid, why is it that we always hear about how Chinese safes are junk, except when it comes to one that he sells? |
|
Quoted: Let's just start with 1. Bighorn, a Chinese import by Rhino Metals. It's not better because it's an all out better safe. It's better because you can get the same "high quality" for a lower price. That lower price also includes a slightly heavier built safe. Thank you for this. I'm looking at the Bighorn 7144 now. 10 ga vs 11 gauge (Liberty Franklin / Fatboy), or 12 ga (Liberty Colonial). 1.5" bolts, 71" high...it seems to be what I wanted out of the Liberty Franklin, but about $300 less... Is there any aspect in which this safe is not "superior" to the Liberty Franklin series? |
|
Is there any aspect in which this safe is not "superior" to the Liberty Franklin series?
It doesn't have Liberty painted on the door. 
I'm actually a pretty big fan of Liberty. It's certainly not because they make the best gun safe on the market, because they don't. They do have a decent safe, a large dealer network, and outstanding customer service. You can't go wrong with a Liberty, so long as you don't believe all of the marketing. Rhino is also a good company. They aren't as well known as Liberty, and they aren't as big, but they do offer an outstanding value in the Bighorn line. |
|
Quoted:
I'm not twisting anything. I quoted you. Here is what you said again:
Selectively quoting, and quoting things out of context in my book constitutes twisting things. People on here are not blind or stupid. And that's all I'm going to say. No diggity, no doubt. |
|
Quoted: Rhino is also a good company. They aren't as well known as Liberty, and they aren't as big, but they do offer an outstanding value in the Bighorn line. Who would you consider to be the (or one of the) best values in a gun safe? I'm looking for a 7144-ish sized RSC. The Bighorn 7144 comes in at $1899, and it appears to be a heavier built unit than the equivalent Liberty Franklin model (10ga vs 11ga). Then again, the Franklin comes with the door organizer and outlet kit. To add the $200 to the Big Horn (for door organizer and outlet kit, for equivalency) puts it at ~$2100, or roughly $100 less than the equivalent Liberty Franklin (before tax). Not a massive savings, but $100 less for a heavier built safe would seem to be a good deal. Tax would put the Liberty at about $260 more. Right now I'm looking for a better value than the $1479 FatBoy (not Jr), or the $1479 Colonial 50. They'll come to about $1600 after tax, and I've still got to get them home. For $300 more, I'm getting a taller (compared to FatBoy), or heavier (compared to Colonial) safe, delivered to my door. Other than the name (or lack of), what would be the downside of the Bighorn? |
|
Other than the name (or lack of), what would be the downside of the Bighorn?
None that I'm aware of. Sometimes the interiors of the Bighorns have an odor to them, but it goes away once the safe is aired out a bit. I have several Bighorns in service in my area, and haven't had any issues with any of them. We did have to drill one for a lost combination, and it put up just as much of a fight as most other gun safes of similar construction. |
|
Quoted: None that I'm aware of. Sometimes the interiors of the Bighorns have an odor to them, but it goes away once the safe is aired out a bit. Eh, I've bought stuff from Harbor Freight. I'm used to that smell.  Lost combination...what are your thoughts on digital lock vs dial lock? I like the idea of the digital for convenience, but it seems like the dial would be more secure and reliable (albeit, slower for access). |
|
...what are your thoughts on digital lock vs dial lock? I like the idea of the digital for convenience, but it seems like the dial would be more secure and reliable (albeit, slower for access).
Your thoughts are correct. Digital locks will fail, and their failure almost always results in the safe being drilled. Mechanical locks do fail, but it is fairly rare. Not all mechanical lock failures require drilling. Rhino (Bighorn) uses LaGard locks, and Liberty uses S&G. Both lock types from both manufacturers will be the entry level units. Experiences do vary depending on who you ask, but I personally have had fewer LaGard failures than S&G. S&G also has a lot of product in service, so it may simply be a result of raw numbers. The most common LaGard lock found on gun safes is a swing bolt, which has fewer critical moving parts that the most common S&G lock which is motorized, This may also explain some of my experience. |
|
Quoted:
Your thoughts are correct. Digital locks will fail, and their failure almost always results in the safe being drilled. Mechanical locks do fail, but it is fairly rare. Not all mechanical lock failures require drilling. OK, I have a question. I have one of those cheaper made RSC's (I just couldn't pass on the price) until I can splurge a little on a better quality unit. Can the electronic lock be replaced with a better one? I'm pretty sure mine has a Securam. Is it possible to put a better one on it? MG |
| Absolutely. The Securam should have a standard lock footprint. All the good locks on the market carry the same footprint of what your safe will have. The one thing you have to watch is dial locks with some of the cheaper import safes. If you switch to one of those, there could be issues with getting the dial shaft aligned depending on how well of a job the manufacturer did with mounting the dial ring straight. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gun safe Question?!?! (Page 1 of 3)
Armory Sponsor