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Posted: 10/26/2010 9:45:18 AM EDT
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I've posted this on a couple of other forums, but I want your guys take as well.
I've really been lusting after a center fire bolt action rifle for a while now, but last week I had a new experience, and some new requirements have been thrown into the mix. What was my experience you ask? Well, I went hog hunting on my Godfather's 200 acre ranch in East Texas. I'm totally and completely hooked! It was such a rush, and now it's difficult to think about anything else. So here's the issue: I was hunting with a Benelli SBE with 3 1/2" buckshot (can you say recoil), and while this works well in many cases, there were several opportunities that I chose to pass up because I felt that the hogs were out of range for a clean kill. They were however EASILY within iron sight rifle range, which is what I want to switch to. Here are my thoughts on rifles: As mentioned earlier, I really want a bolt action (probably .308). I'd like to do some longish range target shooting (maybe 600-800 yards), but I would also like to take this gun hunting. I would prefer a varmint barrel but want to keep the stock relatively light for carrying it around. The second issue is that I'm a recent college grad, so I'm on a budget. I'd love to have a custom build, but I can't afford the price tag; I'm trying to keep the cost under $1000 (without optics). My initial attraction is to Savage's Model 10 line, especially because of how easy they are to work on, and their inherent accuracy. I really like the Precision Carbine, but I'm unsure about the quality of the stock. However, one issue I've noticed with Savage (especially current models) is that their upgrade path is limited compared to say.. Remington, so it leaves me feeling uncertain. The next bolt action I've looked at is the Tikka T3, I really don't know that much about them, but people seem to say their quality is very nice; I really need to go handle one. CZ 550 Varmint. I have several CZ pistols an love them. I've heard that their rifles are very accurate, but that the bolt lift is very high, requiring you to mount the scope high as well (annoying), but tell me more. I would say Remington 700, but after handling a couple, I'm really not impressed by their fit, finish, or perceived level of quality. My main concern about a bolt action in these formats (relatively tactical) is that we hog hunt at night, and therefore I would need iron sights. Unfortunately I'm looking for something kind of unique; an optic ready heavy barreled rifle with back up iron sights. I REALLY love the BUIS on the Specter-Babr from Underground Skunkworks http://www.undergroundsw.com/page3.php . In fact in my mind this would be the perfect gun, but I simply can't afford it. Is any kind of aftermarket BUIS system available for bolt actions? Someone also mentioned using something like an Aimpoint. How well would this still work at night? OTHER RIFLES: Ok, I've also been looking at the Marlin .308 MX. Seems like a good overall round, in a fairly compact rifle, and has the iron sights. Upgrade path: limited, but will do a hunting job well. Not really sure that I would want this one for range duty. I have an AR lower that's waiting for its build. I was maybe thinking about doing a 6.8spc upper. This would give me enough firepower for the hogs. The problem with both the .308MX and 6.8SPC is that who knows if these rounds might disappear at some point? We know that .308 winchester is here to stay. What do you guys think? What other recommendations do you have in terms of rifles and optics, I'm all ears! Please help! |
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I would suggest the 6.8spc build. The ammo is more expensive and not as common as 223, but I dont see it going away anytime soon, if anything it is becoming more common in both weapon and ammo availability.
Second to that, I would suggest a semi 308. To stay under your $1000 budget, I would suggest the DPMS LR 308 which has a good reputation for accuracy, uses cheap p-mags, and is very easy to configure with iron sights and optics. |
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I've shot and killed a few hogs. I would choose a bolt gun absolutely as a last option. I would use a shotgun with slugs before I chose a bolt gun. Load two rounds of buck, follow that with 2-3 slugs. Or get a nice SKS and be done. TRG I have a Russian SKS that loves bustin hogs. I use Wolf 154g SP ammo and it kills piggies just fine. |
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I've shot and killed a few hogs. I would choose a bolt gun absolutely as a last option. I would use a shotgun with slugs before I chose a bolt gun. Load two rounds of buck, follow that with 2-3 slugs. Or get a nice SKS and be done. TRG +1 Shotgun hunting is tons of fun and rifled slugs can give you good range. Have you looked at a rifled barrel? It might be cheaper than buying a new gun. I personally like .308 and have a semi I bring home the bacon with. |
| I have thought about your situation a little more and I think a 6.8 SPC build would be the best choice for you. You already have a lower, so finishing a 6.8 would not be that much money. The benefit of the 6.8 is that it will give you more omfph against 2 legged animals, vs a 223, should you ever need it. I do not think that 6.8 is going to disapear to be honest, so ammo shouldnt be an issue. Ammo will be lighter then a 308 & 12 Gauge, and overall gun weight / size would be reduced as well with a 6.8 AR vs say an M1A or shotgun. All in all, me personally, I would go 6.8, as it will give you more versitility to do whatever you want. |
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The more I think about it as well, the more the 6.8 seems like it's the way to go. Lightweight, good ballistics, quick follow up shots, and most important coolness factor! Now that I am really thinking, you could even go beyond the 6.8 for power, while still using your AR lower. You could even step up to the big boy rounds like the 50 Beowulf or the 458 Socom. More then enough omfph, still the same platform, and still all the benifits of the 6.8. |
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The more I think about it as well, the more the 6.8 seems like it's the way to go. Lightweight, good ballistics, quick follow up shots, and most important coolness factor! Now that I am really thinking, you could even go beyond the 6.8 for power, while still using your AR lower. You could even step up to the big boy rounds like the 50 Beowulf or the 458 Socom. More then enough omfph, still the same platform, and still all the benifits of the 6.8. Or, go the other way with 9mm on hogs. 
The AR is the way to go, no matter what. TRG |
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The more I think about it as well, the more the 6.8 seems like it's the way to go. Lightweight, good ballistics, quick follow up shots, and most important coolness factor! Now that I am really thinking, you could even go beyond the 6.8 for power, while still using your AR lower. You could even step up to the big boy rounds like the 50 Beowulf or the 458 Socom. More then enough omfph, still the same platform, and still all the benifits of the 6.8. What about the availability/cost/ and market longevity of those rounds? Also, what about the recoil? |
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The more I think about it as well, the more the 6.8 seems like it's the way to go. Lightweight, good ballistics, quick follow up shots, and most important coolness factor! Now that I am really thinking, you could even go beyond the 6.8 for power, while still using your AR lower. You could even step up to the big boy rounds like the 50 Beowulf or the 458 Socom. More then enough omfph, still the same platform, and still all the benifits of the 6.8. What about the availability/cost/ and market longevity of those rounds? Also, what about the recoil? Recoil will be more with the big boy rounds, but the "knock down power" (I know, bad thing to say) will be allot greater with the larger rounds. Of the 50 and 458, I personally would pick the 50 Beowulf, seems like it is more popular and well known then the 458 Socom. I dont think ammo with be an issue with either, but I would still go 50. Cost will be higher as well. If you are on an ammo budget, I would say the 6.8, But if ammo cost does not bother you, and recoil isnt an issue, go 50, go big or go home 
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use shotgun slugs for hunting,
then build your long range rifle however you want it. a slug oriented shotgun that will be a accurate at 75 yards is not very expensive (plus you could have the last round be buckshot in case of a charge), so don't "settle" to have your long range "fun gun" be toned down for hunting purposes. |
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The more I think about it as well, the more the 6.8 seems like it's the way to go. Lightweight, good ballistics, quick follow up shots, and most important coolness factor! Now that I am really thinking, you could even go beyond the 6.8 for power, while still using your AR lower. You could even step up to the big boy rounds like the 50 Beowulf or the 458 Socom. More then enough omfph, still the same platform, and still all the benifits of the 6.8. What about the availability/cost/ and market longevity of those rounds? Also, what about the recoil? Recoil will be more with the big boy rounds, but the "knock down power" (I know, bad thing to say) will be allot greater with the larger rounds. Of the 50 and 458, I personally would pick the 50 Beowulf, seems like it is more popular and well known then the 458 Socom. I dont think ammo with be an issue with either, but I would still go 50. Cost will be higher as well. If you are on an ammo budget, I would say the 6.8, But if ammo cost does not bother you, and recoil isnt an issue, go 50, go big or go home I think that Cold uses a .458 for hog hunting. might shoot him an IM and get his opinion on it. TRG |
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Get a 7.62x39 upper. Cheap ammo, and close to the same power as 6.8 SPC. Perfect round for hogs at 200 yards or less. The word I have heard here about 7.62x39 uppers is that they just don't get that accurate. Does anyone have practical experience regarding this? I really like that 9mm AR you have TRG. Do you feel hampered when shooting at 100 yards? It seems like that would be a piggy slayer. |
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Anything available for a Remington 700 can be found for Savages now. They have even started making AIC stocks for Savages. Aftermarket triggers are available as are aftermarket stocks. Any stock maker who is a quality maker has added Savage to their inletting options.
The best part about a Savage is the barrel and caliber can be changed in less than 10 minutes if you stay with the same rim diameter caliber. If you have to change rim diameters it can be done in 30 minutes. And all this can be done at home without the need for a gunsmith. The same cannot be said for a Remington. Factory Savage barrels can be had for $100-$150 used and less than $200 new. A new head for the bolt can be swapped easily and can be bought for less than $20. With a Savage you can have a few barrels to fit all your needs and only have to setup one gun with bases, rings and optics. All of which can cost a lot more than the rifle itself. I have two Savages at the moment, one in 45 ACP for my wife and the other is a build in 223. The original 223 barrel shot <.4" regularly with my handloads and less than 3/4" with factory ammo it liked at 100 yards. Dolomite |
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Anything available for a Remington 700 can be found for Savages now. They have even started making AIC stocks for Savages. Aftermarket triggers are available as are aftermarket stocks. Any stock maker who is a quality maker has added Savage to their inletting options. The best part about a Savage is the barrel and caliber can be changed in less than 10 minutes if you stay with the same rim diameter caliber. If you have to change rim diameters it can be done in 30 minutes. And all this can be done at home without the need for a gunsmith. The same cannot be said for a Remington. Factory Savage barrels can be had for $100-$150 used and less than $200 new. A new head for the bolt can be swapped easily and can be bought for less than $20. With a Savage you can have a few barrels to fit all your needs and only have to setup one gun with bases, rings and optics. All of which can cost a lot more than the rifle itself. I have two Savages at the moment, one in 45 ACP for my wife and the other is a build in 223. The original 223 barrel shot <.4" regularly with my handloads and less than 3/4" with factory ammo it liked at 100 yards. Dolomite There is a savage bolt action in .45acp? Or did I completely misread |
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Anything available for a Remington 700 can be found for Savages now. They have even started making AIC stocks for Savages. Aftermarket triggers are available as are aftermarket stocks. Any stock maker who is a quality maker has added Savage to their inletting options. The best part about a Savage is the barrel and caliber can be changed in less than 10 minutes if you stay with the same rim diameter caliber. If you have to change rim diameters it can be done in 30 minutes. And all this can be done at home without the need for a gunsmith. The same cannot be said for a Remington. Factory Savage barrels can be had for $100-$150 used and less than $200 new. A new head for the bolt can be swapped easily and can be bought for less than $20. With a Savage you can have a few barrels to fit all your needs and only have to setup one gun with bases, rings and optics. All of which can cost a lot more than the rifle itself. I have two Savages at the moment, one in 45 ACP for my wife and the other is a build in 223. The original 223 barrel shot <.4" regularly with my handloads and less than 3/4" with factory ammo it liked at 100 yards. Dolomite There is a savage bolt action in .45acp? Or did I completely misread Also dying to know the answer to this ^ |
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The action is a Savage/Stevens 200 with the same bolt head as a .308 Remington, .473. The barrel is a 16 twist Shilen match barrel with a .451 groove that was finished like a Remington action with a shoulder rather than use a barrel nut. The barrel is cut to an overall length of 17" and 1" in diameter up to the chamber. The front sights are Tech Sights that are made for .920 barreled 10/22's. I had the end of the barrel machined for a press fit of the Tech Sites. The rear sights are Williams WGRS with a ghost ring.
Anyways, here are the pictures, enjoy: Front sight: 
A few views: 
Rear sight: 
Sight picture: 
The rifle was built for my wife to use for nuisance animals that show up on our property. She has quite a few other guns she can use but they are either too loud to be used without ears or don't have enough knock down to reliably drop them if the shot isn't perfect. She is a phenomenal shot but sometimes the shots need to be made in the middle of the night in less than ideal conditions and in the past the animals have escaped to no doubt die a miserable death. She liked the idea of ghost ring irons over a red dot because there is nothing to turn on before shooting. The stock is going to be getting replaced at some point, this stock is my project stock that every Savage wears when I am working on them. Here are some loads, the 250 grain SST's remind me of a midget 450 Bushmater: 
The others are 230 grain GDHP's that work really well. I recently picked up some Power Pistol and that really woke the gun up. I have loaded some 200 grain SWC's over the max load of PP and it is amazing how it shoots now, both in power level and the trajectory. It is pretty much point and shoot well past 50 yards which is all we need it for. Even with the max load the primers are still nice and round. Another advantage to this setup is I can use HEAVY bullets. I recently loaded some 300 grain SP's until I started to see pressure signs. It definitely hits hard but has the drop of a mortar, it is great out to about 35 yards though. I think I will try some slower powders to get the velocity up a bit before the pressure builds and see what happens. I have been looking locally for some even heavier stuff to try, I would love to find some 400+ grainers just for grins but I don't think the throat is long enough. I got to thinking and this rifle would be hell on hogs as well within a reasonable distance. Dolomite |
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Also, I am known in my circle of friends as the guy who does odd things. I do them to see if they are even possible and some work out and some don't. I also built a Savage chamebred in 7.62x25 Tokarev and used ti to launch heavy bullets at subsonic velocities. I could also shoot cheap surplus if I wanted.
In a 16 inch carbine the surplus Tokarev rounds run 1800-1850 FPS. I am in the process of searching for a cheap 1911 in 38 Super for a Tokarev conversion. The rim diameters are within .007" and overall within .03. And with the bottleneck of the Tokarev is will feed more reliabley than most straight walled cartrdiges. It will feed from the 38 Super mags so the only thing to work out is the barrel and recoil spring. For the barrel I am just going to run a liner to make sure it is feasible then have one made after that. I have had 2 AR's chambered in Tokarev, one blowback and one gas. I have had 2 Savage bolt actions chambered in the Tokarev. I used the Tokarev case to load heavy loads at subsonic velocities and fire them out of a Savage. Using pistol powders in a rifle length barrel I was able to get loads that are as quiet as a subsonic 22 lr out of a 16" 10/22. This was without a suppressor on my 24.5" barreled gun. My current build has a 16" barrel so it is a little louder but still quieter than a subsonic 22lr out of a pistol and 9mm out of a rifle. My pet load is 8.4 grains of 3N38 over a 180 grain Sierra spitzer and Remington 6 1/2 primers. It turned out to be a 1/2 MOA shooter. The reason for the Tokarev and not teh 300 Whisper? Because I planned on only shooting subsonic and in that case the Tokarev has enough case capacity to do that and do it well. The 300 Whisper would be able to push heavier bullets fast but I wasn't looking for that. Also, everything needed to build and reload for the Tokarev is cheaper, dies, brass, reamer is easier to find. And the Tokarev uses a .308 bore so common bullets can be used. And finally, in a pinch I can shoot factory or suplus ammo for CHEAP. The last case of surplus I bought cost me $119 to my door for 1440 rounds. I have literally fired probably 2000+ Tokarev rounds. Some surplus some of my heavy handloads. I have done stability testing to determine what twist would keep the bullets stabile in flight yet tumble in upon impact. The reason for this is a friend and I were having problems getting a HP to reliably open at the various subsonic velocities. Thinking tumbling would be a more reliable option I started testing. As it turns out we were right. My 180 grain load will tumble in 6"-10" of water yet remain stabile when using a 10.625" twist. And unlike HP's where the bullet's performance get worse as velocity drops a bullet is more likely to tumble as the velocity drops. Here are a few pictures of my Savage built to shoot the Tokarev: Tensioned barrel with the barrel machined concentric to the bore then a sleeve put over it and the tensioning nut tightened. This slightly stretches the barrel reducing whip. You could measure the difference between loose and tight on a longer barrel I tensioned. I tension barrels with sleeves to help with accuracy and keep the weight down at the same time. 
Tensioning nut: 
Round sitting on the bolt face: 
Bolt face opened up to .400" from .378" to make room for the .393" rim of the Tokarev round: 
Some dummy rounds I made up for chambering: 
L-R: 150 grain 30-30 bullet 180 grain HotCor bullet 168 grain SMK 180 Sierra Spitzer Most of these projects were done or started before my helicopter accident overseas. Since the accident I can't do 10% of what I once did so I have had to slow down a lot. I still have a lot of projects floating around in my little pea brain but my injuries are keeping me doing most of them. Dolomite |
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Get a 7.62x39 upper. Cheap ammo, and close to the same power as 6.8 SPC. Perfect round for hogs at 200 yards or less. The word I have heard here about 7.62x39 uppers is that they just don't get that accurate. Does anyone have practical experience regarding this? I really like that 9mm AR you have TRG. Do you feel hampered when shooting at 100 yards? It seems like that would be a piggy slayer. Depends on your definition of accurate. A 7.62X39 with russian ammo is a bit sloppy when compared to a 223 or 6.8 with good ammo . If you search out decent commercial (as opposed to military ball ) ammo it is decent for hunting use . Even with ball ammo 7.62 X 39 will out shoot all but the very best slug guns and follow up shots are going to be much faster |
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Also, I am known in my circle of friends as the guy who does odd things. I do them to see if they are even possible and some work out and some don't. I also built a Savage chamebred in 7.62x25 Tokarev and used ti to launch heavy bullets at subsonic velocities. I could also shoot cheap surplus if I wanted... Dolomite I have nothing to add other than this project is stupidly awesome.  
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Get a 7.62x39 upper. Cheap ammo, and close to the same power as 6.8 SPC. Perfect round for hogs at 200 yards or less. The word I have heard here about 7.62x39 uppers is that they just don't get that accurate. Does anyone have practical experience regarding this? I really like that 9mm AR you have TRG. Do you feel hampered when shooting at 100 yards? It seems like that would be a piggy slayer. Honestly, I don't recall having the opportunity to kill one at more than 50 yards in the last couple of years. I tend to hunt thickets and bedding areas. I don't doubt that they would be killed by the 9mm at 100 yards. I had some running across a field about 2-3 years ago and the 9mm took them down. But, they could have been hit in the woods first, and just fallen dead at the longer range. TRG |
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I've posted this on a couple of other forums, but I want your guys take as well. I've really been lusting after a center fire bolt action rifle for a while now, but last week I had a new experience, and some new requirements have been thrown into the mix. What was my experience you ask? Well, I went hog hunting on my Godfather's 200 acre ranch in East Texas. I'm totally and completely hooked! It was such a rush, and now it's difficult to think about anything else. So here's the issue: I was hunting with a Benelli SBE with 3 1/2" buckshot (can you say recoil), and while this works well in many cases, there were several opportunities that I chose to pass up because I felt that the hogs were out of range for a clean kill. They were however EASILY within iron sight rifle range, which is what I want to switch to. Here are my thoughts on rifles: As mentioned earlier, I really want a bolt action (probably .308). I'd like to do some longish range target shooting (maybe 600-800 yards), but I would also like to take this gun hunting. I would prefer a varmint barrel but want to keep the stock relatively light for carrying it around. The second issue is that I'm a recent college grad, so I'm on a budget. I'd love to have a custom build, but I can't afford the price tag; I'm trying to keep the cost under $1000 (without optics). My initial attraction is to Savage's Model 10 line, especially because of how easy they are to work on, and their inherent accuracy. I really like the Precision Carbine, but I'm unsure about the quality of the stock. However, one issue I've noticed with Savage (especially current models) is that their upgrade path is limited compared to say.. Remington, so it leaves me feeling uncertain. The next bolt action I've looked at is the Tikka T3, I really don't know that much about them, but people seem to say their quality is very nice; I really need to go handle one. CZ 550 Varmint. I have several CZ pistols an love them. I've heard that their rifles are very accurate, but that the bolt lift is very high, requiring you to mount the scope high as well (annoying), but tell me more. I would say Remington 700, but after handling a couple, I'm really not impressed by their fit, finish, or perceived level of quality. My main concern about a bolt action in these formats (relatively tactical) is that we hog hunt at night, and therefore I would need iron sights. Unfortunately I'm looking for something kind of unique; an optic ready heavy barreled rifle with back up iron sights. I REALLY love the BUIS on the Specter-Babr from Underground Skunkworks http://www.undergroundsw.com/page3.php . In fact in my mind this would be the perfect gun, but I simply can't afford it. Is any kind of aftermarket BUIS system available for bolt actions? Someone also mentioned using something like an Aimpoint. How well would this still work at night? OTHER RIFLES: Ok, I've also been looking at the Marlin .308 MX. Seems like a good overall round, in a fairly compact rifle, and has the iron sights. Upgrade path: limited, but will do a hunting job well. Not really sure that I would want this one for range duty. I have an AR lower that's waiting for its build. I was maybe thinking about doing a 6.8spc upper. This would give me enough firepower for the hogs. The problem with both the .308MX and 6.8SPC is that who knows if these rounds might disappear at some point? We know that .308 winchester is here to stay. What do you guys think? What other recommendations do you have in terms of rifles and optics, I'm all ears! Please help! Go pick out a R700 in the SPS tactical flavor. Get a B&C light tactical stock, scope it and go hunting. It fill satisfy everything your looking for. If you want lighter weight, and accuracy, but more cost, go find the 700 LTR. |
Which is to say I'd go along with just using your 12GA and building whatever you want for a long range rifle.
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