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Posted: 5/2/2015 6:56:50 PM EDT
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I'm a fairly new reloader using a Hornady LNL AP doing 5.56 using 62gr. Armscor FMJBT bullets.
I'm seating with the Hornady die and crimping with a Lee FCD. I made 39 rounds and wound up with OAL from 2.235 to 2.255. I was measuring them after seating and many of the long ones got second/third passes in the seater, most of them shortened up. I assume part of the problem may be inconsistent bullet shape where it hits the seater but it seems weird that a second press shortens them up. I have the die backed way out, no idea if this could effect it's consistency for aligning the bullet and therefore the seating depth. Any thoughts? Also, how much is this difference going to effect pressure & velocity? I'm shooting a 20" Colt 1:7 with 26Gr. Tac which I've already tested at 2.250"-2.260" and it's a bit on the soft side. The gun needs a lot of port pressure to cycle; works perfectly with factory 5.56 and somewhat ok with some .223, still working out the best hand load. |
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This isn't an Armscor only problem. Even Sierra Match Kings exhibit this to some extent. Always double check your seater adjustment to insure the longest round loaded is still under your target maximum.
The bullets that end up a little shorter harm nothing, not even accuracy. |
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Quoted: This isn't an Armscor only problem. Even Sierra Match Kings exhibit this to some extent. Always double check your seater adjustment to insure the longest round loaded is still under your target maximum. The bullets that end up a little shorter harm nothing, not even accuracy. That's good to hear. I had been worrying about this issue, too, since my cartridges were not coming out the same length, but close. I'm using Dillon dies, didn't know if it was normal. |
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Quoted: I'm a fairly new reloader using a Hornady LNL AP doing 5.56 using 62gr. Armscor FMJBT bullets. I'm seating with the Hornady die and crimping with a Lee FCD. I made 39 rounds and wound up with OAL from 2.235 to 2.255. I was measuring them after seating and many of the long ones got second/third passes in the seater, most of them shortened up. I assume part of the problem may be inconsistent bullet shape where it hits the seater but it seems weird that a second press shortens them up. I have the die backed way out, no idea if this could effect it's consistency for aligning the bullet and therefore the seating depth. Any thoughts? Also, how much is this difference going to effect pressure & velocity? I'm shooting a 20" Colt 1:7 with 26Gr. Tac which I've already tested at 2.250"-2.260" and it's a bit on the soft side. The gun needs a lot of port pressure to cycle; works perfectly with factory 5.56 and somewhat ok with some .223, still working out the best hand load. It's normal to get some variance in OAL with any bullet. But some bullets are not very uniform. Just seat bullets so the longest ones are below mag length (2.260), which you are. Bottle neck rifle cases have more internal capacity than pistol cases, so a variance in OAL will have little effect on pressure. In my AR, 26.0 grs Tac with a 62 gr FMJBTSC (SS-109) is my max load, a half grain more and I will get pressure signs. You are using a different bullet and rifle, but I would advice you to not increase your load without a cautious workup. In my experience, Armscore bullets shoot patterns not groups, so I only bought them once. |
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Quoted:
The seating plug must contact the bullet on the ogive, not the nose. Measure OAL off the ogive, not the nose. Measuring on the ogive makes no sense to me; I need to stay within mag length to feed and the differences in length mean that some bullets are further into the case changing pressure. |
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Your seating die bears on the bullets ojive, not the tip of the bullet you are measuring.(Google ojive if you don't know the term) It's normal to get some variance in OAL with any bullet. But some bullets are not very uniform. Just seat bullets so the longest ones are below mag length (2.260), which you are. Bottle neck rifle cases have more internal capacity than pistol cases, so a variance in OAL will have little effect on pressure. In my AR, 26.0 grs Tac with a 62 gr FMJBTSC (SS-109) is my max load, a half grain more and I will get pressure signs. You are using a different bullet and rifle, but I would advice you to not increase your load without a cautious workup. In my experience, Armscore bullets shoot patterns not groups, so I only bought them once. Quoted:
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I'm a fairly new reloader using a Hornady LNL AP doing 5.56 using 62gr. Armscor FMJBT bullets. I'm seating with the Hornady die and crimping with a Lee FCD. I made 39 rounds and wound up with OAL from 2.235 to 2.255. I was measuring them after seating and many of the long ones got second/third passes in the seater, most of them shortened up. I assume part of the problem may be inconsistent bullet shape where it hits the seater but it seems weird that a second press shortens them up. I have the die backed way out, no idea if this could effect it's consistency for aligning the bullet and therefore the seating depth. Any thoughts? Also, how much is this difference going to effect pressure & velocity? I'm shooting a 20" Colt 1:7 with 26Gr. Tac which I've already tested at 2.250"-2.260" and it's a bit on the soft side. The gun needs a lot of port pressure to cycle; works perfectly with factory 5.56 and somewhat ok with some .223, still working out the best hand load. It's normal to get some variance in OAL with any bullet. But some bullets are not very uniform. Just seat bullets so the longest ones are below mag length (2.260), which you are. Bottle neck rifle cases have more internal capacity than pistol cases, so a variance in OAL will have little effect on pressure. In my AR, 26.0 grs Tac with a 62 gr FMJBTSC (SS-109) is my max load, a half grain more and I will get pressure signs. You are using a different bullet and rifle, but I would advice you to not increase your load without a cautious workup. In my experience, Armscore bullets shoot patterns not groups, so I only bought them once. So even .020 variance won't change pressure enough to be of any concern? It seems extreme to me, but being a noob loader I don't know. In my first round of testing with these bullets I did notice that it didn't seem very accurate but I thought maybe it was just me. I did some measuring of the bullets' weights and lengths today, they seem to have quite a bit of inconsistency but I've never done this before so I don't know how much variance is 'normal'. Out of a handful of bullets I had a little over .005 length difference and about 1/2 gr. weight difference. While those may not be terrible numbers, some of the longest weren't the heaviest meaning that the extra weight is in the bullet's girth, probably different ogives which would explain the OAL variances. It still doesn't explain why pressing them again would shorten them unless the ogive and/or die aren't concentric. I'll keep them sorted by length for testing and shoot them from longest to shortest to see if there's any obvious difference in pressure. |
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This isn't an Armscor only problem. Even Sierra Match Kings exhibit this to some extent. Always double check your seater adjustment to insure the longest round loaded is still under your target maximum. The bullets that end up a little shorter harm nothing, not even accuracy. Accuracy will change as well as pressure, how much is the million dollar question. We know that the further the bullet is from the rifling the less accurate it'll probably be. We also know that reducing case volume increases chamber pressure. So if I'm at max pressure with a long seated bullet, shortening it may push it over the edge; I just don't know how much .020" will really change pressure. The only stuff I've read about length pertained to extreme accuracy and they say that even .005 variance is unacceptable. |
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Quoted:So even .020 variance won't change pressure enough to be of any concern?
It seems extreme to me, but being a noob loader I don't know. It COULD cause concern depending on where you are in base pressure . . . bottom line it is to be avoided, but probably not a serious safety concern. In my first round of testing with these bullets I did notice that it didn't seem very accurate but I thought maybe it was just me. I did some measuring of the bullets' weights and lengths today, they seem to have quite a bit of inconsistency but I've never done this before so I don't know how much variance is 'normal'. Out of a handful of bullets I had a little over .005 length difference and about 1/2 gr. weight difference. While those may not be terrible numbers, some of the longest weren't the heaviest meaning that the extra weight is in the bullet's girth, probably different ogives which would explain the OAL variances. It still doesn't explain why pressing them again would shorten them unless the ogive and/or die aren't concentric. Given the low round count and the issues you had, it's possible the press caused some variance. If you seat a bullet while all the other dies are empty, then seat an IDENTICAL bullet with the dies all full, you will get a couple of thousandths variance. The subplate is supported by two bolts 180 degrees apart . . . the seating die (station 4) is on one side of that line, and the sizing die is on the other. The subplate can tilt a tad. You'll notice that when you are adjusting the seating die with all others empty, then compare to a "production" round. Another possibility: Given Flash's comments about "pattern" vs "group" it's possible the bullets are not symmetrical. I'll keep them sorted by length for testing and shoot them from longest to shortest to see if there's any obvious difference in pressure. Reading the rest of what you posted, I think you've got the info you need. |
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It still doesn't explain why pressing them again would shorten them unless the ogive and/or die aren't concentric. Given the low round count and the issues you had, it's possible the press caused some variance. If you seat a bullet while all the other dies are empty, then seat an IDENTICAL bullet with the dies all full, you will get a couple of thousandths variance. The subplate is supported by two bolts 180 degrees apart . . . the seating die (station 4) is on one side of that line, and the sizing die is on the other. The subplate can tilt a tad. You'll notice that when you are adjusting the seating die with all others empty, then compare to a "production" round. If you're sizing brass while seating this is why you're seeing big variances, anytime I notice a significant difference in the amount of force required to run the ram I know the COAL of the round in the seating station at that time will be off, consistent as gravity. I size anything I really want consistency from on my single stage. With those bullets accuracy will not likely be affected. Shortening rifle COAL does not raise pressure the same as it does with pistols, or at least not to the same extent for a given change, usually with rifle cartridges there is a greater risk of increased pressure as you get longer if you're real close to the lands, something not likely to happen feeding from a magazine. |
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Thanks for the replies guy and I do think I have the info I need now.
The press tweaking while sizing & seating makes sense, tho it saddens me that they didn't make it better to keep this from happening. Had I read that pitfall while researching presses I may have gone with a different brand. I was pretty sure the variances hadn't been nearly this bad on my first go with these bullets, it was only my second round of reloading so I was separating steps. I also knew I'd probably have to trim the cases but this time around I trimmed first just to try doing the reloading in one step, none of them stretched above 1.755. I now have two reasons to separate the sizing step, I was also getting inconsistent powder drops due to the movement of the press so I had to weigh each drop and change most of them. The table isn't very solid and the press bounces quite a bit when resizing which is packing the powder drum with more or less powder, another thing that didn't happen when not sizing while loading. I see a single stage in my future....damn, I'm already becoming 'that guy' with multiple presses and I just got into this. Altho I know I can do it all on the Hornady, I'd rather take that stress off of it and I think a more solid press with a single shell holder would be nicer to work with when exerting a lot of force. I've also devised a way to make the table more stable, it needs it. Thanks again. |
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Get a Rockchucker and be done with it. The seating depth inconsistencies have nothing to do with the press  . If you do the same thing, the same way everything there is no reason to see any inconsistency due to the press. If you do see those problems, you need to call Hornady because something is wrong.
OP, the length of the round doesn't matter, the length to ogive is all that matters. Bullet tips are notoriously inconsistent so I wouldn't worry about it. I know a lot of people that reload precision ammo on the AP. A friend of mine finished very high in the presidents 100 high Power and he uses the AP for his ammo. |
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It still doesn't explain why pressing them again would shorten them unless the ogive and/or die aren't concentric.
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I'm seating with the Hornady die Hornady #10. Now we will set the crimp on the cartridge. Your
new Hornady® Crimp/Seater die will achieve this by adjusting the Crimp Adjust Screw as opposed to loosening the Sure-Loc Lock Ring and adjusting the entire body as with most seater dies. Since the lock ring was set in step 4, it doesn’t have to be moved. |
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Measuring on the ogive makes no sense to me; I need to stay within mag length to feed and the differences in length mean that some bullets are further into the case changing pressure. Quoted:
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The seating plug must contact the bullet on the ogive, not the nose. Measure OAL off the ogive, not the nose. Measuring on the ogive makes no sense to me; I need to stay within mag length to feed and the differences in length mean that some bullets are further into the case changing pressure. Quoted:
Thanks for the replies guy and I do think I have the info I need now. The press tweaking while sizing & seating makes sense, tho it saddens me that they didn't make it better to keep this from happening. Had I read that pitfall while researching presses I may have gone with a different brand. ... The table isn't very solid and the press bounces quite a bit when resizing which is packing the powder drum with more or less powder, another thing that didn't happen when not sizing while loading. .. I've also devised a way to make the table more stable, it needs it. Measuring to the ogive will give you a real indication of actual variance. (regardless of where it's coming from). Measuring OAL only, allows for additional variance as quite often bullets have more variance in base to tip/meplat than in base to ogive. On the rest - Dillon and RBCS progressives do the same thing. What some of us do is keep a case in the sizing die spot and 'recycle it' while finishing out the end of a loading session to keep everything consistent. Now - a few things: 1. The Hornady PM is excellent...especially after you've hopefully cleaned it thoroughly as in disassembling, de-greasing, soaking in Dawn/soapy water, rinsing and drying, then dry lube, paste wax or cycling several pounds of powder through it manually. 2. Get the press and table sorted - this will have an impact on consistency from round to round, even down to pressure and stroke time and rhythm, any of which won't help to make better ammo, and can even impact your powder drops from an otherwise excellent powder measure. See if you can brace up the table, add a piece of plywood on top or at least below the press mount, etc. Everyone gave great info and suggestions in this thread, but your conclusions based on the info provided are off, IMO. 3. You're loading for an AR. This is not a precision bolt gun (and several of us do in fact load for bolt guns on LnL or other progressives..). 3.a. You're loading for an AR with crappy blasting bullets, at best. Move to Hornady 55gr FMJ-BT or SPs, and you'll likely be at 1MOA consistently, or a large jump in price for better bullets before I'd consider any concerns about the press, other than 2. above. (if even then). 3.b. Loading for nearly anything other than a single round at a time fed 80gr match bullet (longer than mag length) with a match cut barrel, a progressive press is far more desirable than any believed benefits of a single stage. |
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Now that OP has mentioned he has a shaky work serface, we can now get somewhere. A progressive press must be bolted to a solid bench that does not flex. Your weak bench is affecting sizing, powder drop, and bullet seating. First things first (get a decent bench) then work on your technique and component quality. |
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I greatly appreciate all the replies; thank you all!
Shell plate thickness shouldn't matter for seating since the shell is pushed by the press base and not the shell plate, the shell plate only makes contact on the down stroke to press a primer and to pull the shell from the sizer. The Hornady shell plate and press is very different from a standard single shell holder and can't be compared. Your response does make me realize I need to do some measuring to be sure I'm not over-bumping using Hornady's instructions so thank you. If the base of the press is flexing while seating I can see that changing the seating since the seater is almost dirrectly across from the sizer, more pressure at the sizer side could tilt the base causing a deeper seating, but it looks very substantial and shouldn't be flexing. Maybe the shaky bench is altering seating somehow, tho I don't think it should. The shaky bench is definitely changing my powder throws by packing the drum with the vibrations/movement, I have played with it some and found that manually bumping the press around definitely increases the powder charge. I've seen about .5gr. changes with Tac between no movement and lots of bumping; Winchester 231 also changes but I haven't done a lot of testing with 231 to have useful numbers--these are the only two powders I've used. I guess I need to try some back-to-back seating while sizing and not sizing to see if that's somehow causing something to flex and alter the seating. I did clean everything very well and it's properly lubed. I will do some testing to see what may be causing the issue after properly beefing up the mounting surface since that needs to be fixed regardless. I will also try some better bullets to minimize measured variance due to them. |
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The FL die contacting the shell plate is what stops the ram. This in turn, sets the OAL. If the deck height is different at each station, the OAL will be different on my Dillon. Your Hornady may be different?? The FL sizer on mine doesn't stop the ram, the ram goes the full stroke and contacts the sizer at the end, that's the directed way to set it up. The pivoting arms that hold the ram have a fair bit of slop and that may be the culprit here. That slop allows the ram to rotate slightly which would cock the shell on it's up the seater and may explain the inconsistency. Since sizing requires a fair bit of force applied to the handle that will increase the twisting and is likely the reason I had better results when seating and not sizing at the same time. Shimming up the arms will reduce this slop but I'll contact Hornady about it first to see what they have to say. |
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Please let us know what Hornady says about the "slop" and about your inconsistencies. Both pieces of info may well help others. He said the slop is normal and shouldn't effect anything. That was followed with "be sure you pull the handle straight and consistently each time" which I hadn't paid much attention to and seems a bit difficult when applying varying forces during sizing. I'll try to concentrate on straight even pulls for the test batch and then test with some twist just to see. He agreed that .020 is excessive and the press should do much better. He asked that I run at least 50rnds progressively and track them to see if there's any pattern or if it's totally random and to call back with results. I'll also do my OAL measurements with the seater plug to eliminate bullet ogive inconsistencies from effecting the measurements. |
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The vast majority of the inconsistency was the Armscor bullets.
I ran another batch and measured using the seater plug to eliminate the bullet ogive/shape differences. The bullets' OAL was still all over the place but when measured using the seater plug they were pretty consistent. When I looked at them closely I could see the difference in the bullets' shapes, quite ridiculous. Now I know why they're so inexpensive. It seems that if they packaged bullets by batch off one machine they should be more consistent, I assume they have several machines dumping into one chute and boxing them, |
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It normally doesn't take long for reloaders to discover that buying the cheapest bullets is false economy. I can load match grade bullets for less than the price of G.I. surplus sold in big box stores.
Match grade ammo brings out the best in any rifle. Even rack grade chrome lined barrels will flirt with 1" groups shooting Sierra Match Kings. Money well spent. 3" to 4" 100 yard groups is the norm when shooting M193 or M855 ball whether you load it at home or buy it outright. Not much to get excited about in my book. |
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Once the seater is adjusted to set the longest bullet to the COAL, don't touch it again while seating those bullets.
All of the bullets will be seated the same length into the case, and all of the dimensions from the ogive to the rifling origin will be the same. This is what matters, not the minor variation in COAL after the requirement for magazine length is met. I would set COAL to 2.26 inches, let some sneak out to 2.265 if using USGI magazines, or if you prefer and want more of the bullet in the case, then set COAL to 2.25 inches, then press on. |
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It normally doesn't take long for reloaders to discover that buying the cheapest bullets is false economy. I can load match grade bullets for less than the price of G.I. surplus sold in big box stores. Match grade ammo brings out the best in any rifle. Even rack grade chrome lined barrels will flirt with 1" groups shooting Sierra Match Kings. Money well spent. 3" to 4" 100 yard groups is the norm when shooting M193 or M855 ball whether you load it at home or buy it outright. Not much to get excited about in my book. Thank you; I'm gonna burn these up and probably never go back, the inconsistency is ridiculous. |
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Once the seater is adjusted to set the longest bullet to the COAL, don't touch it again while seating those bullets. All of the bullets will be seated the same length into the case, and all of the dimensions from the ogive to the rifling origin will be the same. This is what matters, not the minor variation in COAL after the requirement for magazine length is met. I would set COAL to 2.26 inches, let some sneak out to 2.265 if using USGI magazines, or if you prefer and want more of the bullet in the case, then set COAL to 2.25 inches, then press on. They don't seat into the case the same length and the ogive won't be the same distance to the rifling. Usable plinkers I guess, but they're junk. I have USGI and some Blackhawk which allow even more length, all are seated to under the max that'll fit either mag, some more than others because of the inconsistency. |
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