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12/17/2008 3:29:12 PM EDT
As I was the process of trying to acquire another suppressor, I had an interesting conversation today with a pretty well versed Lt in my local sheriffs department. Instead of going the trust or LLC route, I figured I would TRY to get my CLEO to sign off on the form 4. One of my angles was going to be that I already own title II devices and one more should not hurt anything.

When I started to have this discussion, I was told that it is illegal to possess a suppressor in NC for the normal "collection" reasons. He informed me that I could not bring them into the state since I did not qualify under NC state laws to legally possess them.

Even though it is not necessary, I already submitted NFA  form 5320.20 so that I would have a copy to document that the ATF was notified of my planned move. I have not received it back yet, but when I talked to the branch office they seemed to be fine with signing a copy and sending it back.

Has anyone else ran into this as when they moved into the state?
12/18/2008 4:49:18 AM EDT
[#1]
"collector" does not qualify in NC.  You have to go the route of "All Lawful purposes per NC GS 14-288.8"  NC has a tendency to be a a little grey when it comes to many of the laws.  Your best bet is to avoid involving the Sherriff if possible.
12/18/2008 6:12:56 AM EDT
[#2]
Actually "collector" is specifically allowed under NC law, most LEOs just think it isn't.

From the NC 14-288.8:

§ 14‑288.8.  Manufacture, assembly, possession, storage, transportation, sale, purchase, delivery, or acquisition of weapon of mass death and destruction; exceptions.

(a)       Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction.

(b)       This section does not apply to:

(1)       Persons exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14‑269 with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in while carrying out their duties.

(2)       Importers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors of firearms, ammunition, or destructive devices validly licensed under the laws of the United States or the State of North Carolina, while lawfully engaged in activities authorized under their licenses.

(3)       Persons under contract with the United States, the State of North Carolina, or any agency of either government, with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in under their contracts.

(4)       Inventors, designers, ordnance consultants and researchers, chemists, physicists, and other persons lawfully engaged in pursuits designed to enlarge knowledge or to facilitate the creation, development, or manufacture of weapons of mass death and destruction intended for use in a manner consistent with the laws of the United States and the State of North Carolina.

(c)       The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" includes:

(1)       Any explosive or incendiary:

a.         Bomb; or

b.         Grenade; or

c.         Rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces; or

d.         Missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one‑quarter ounce; or

e.         Mine; or

f.          Device similar to any of the devices described above; or

(2)       Any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell of a type particularly suitable for sporting purposes) which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one‑half inch in diameter; or

(3)       Any firearm capable of fully automatic fire, any shotgun with a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any rifle with a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not such firearm is included within this definition. For the purposes of this section, rifle is defined as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; or

(4)       Any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any weapon described above and from which a weapon of mass death and destruction may readily be assembled.

The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" does not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line‑throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of Title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary of the Treasury finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes, in accordance with Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code.

(d)       Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a Class F felony. (1969, c. 869, s. 1; 1975, c. 718, ss. 6, 7; 1977, c. 810; 1983, c. 413, ss. 1, 2; 1993, c. 539, s. 1228; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2001‑470, s. 3.)


Now, that section I bolded makes some mention of licenses, so it's debatable whether you would need, say, a C&R FFL to establish that you are a "collector... validly licensed."  Like wahoo95 said, all my Form 4s say "Consistent with the laws of the US and NC 14-288.8 Section 4."  All have cleared ATF with no trouble, but I do use a trust because I hate having to beg an anti-gun LEO for my permission slip.
12/18/2008 8:54:29 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Actually "collector" is specifically allowed under NC law, most LEOs just think it isn't.

From the NC 14-288.8:

§ 14‑288.8.  Manufacture, assembly, possession, storage, transportation, sale, purchase, delivery, or acquisition of weapon of mass death and destruction; exceptions.

(a)       Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction.

(b)       This section does not apply to:

(1)       Persons exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14‑269 with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in while carrying out their duties.

(2)       Importers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors of firearms, ammunition, or destructive devices validly licensed under the laws of the United States or the State of North Carolina, while lawfully engaged in activities authorized under their licenses.

(3)       Persons under contract with the United States, the State of North Carolina, or any agency of either government, with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in under their contracts.

(4)       Inventors, designers, ordnance consultants and researchers, chemists, physicists, and other persons lawfully engaged in pursuits designed to enlarge knowledge or to facilitate the creation, development, or manufacture of weapons of mass death and destruction intended for use in a manner consistent with the laws of the United States and the State of North Carolina.

(c)       The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" includes:

(1)       Any explosive or incendiary:

a.         Bomb; or

b.         Grenade; or

c.         Rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces; or

d.         Missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one‑quarter ounce; or

e.         Mine; or

f.          Device similar to any of the devices described above; or

(2)       Any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell of a type particularly suitable for sporting purposes) which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one‑half inch in diameter; or

(3)       Any firearm capable of fully automatic fire, any shotgun with a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any rifle with a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not such firearm is included within this definition. For the purposes of this section, rifle is defined as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; or

(4)       Any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any weapon described above and from which a weapon of mass death and destruction may readily be assembled.

The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" does not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line‑throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of Title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary of the Treasury finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes, in accordance with Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code.

(d)       Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a Class F felony. (1969, c. 869, s. 1; 1975, c. 718, ss. 6, 7; 1977, c. 810; 1983, c. 413, ss. 1, 2; 1993, c. 539, s. 1228; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2001‑470, s. 3.)


Now, that section I bolded makes some mention of licenses, so it's debatable whether you would need, say, a C&R FFL to establish that you are a "collector... validly licensed."  Like wahoo95 said, all my Form 4s say "Consistent with the laws of the US and NC 14-288.8 Section 4."  All have cleared ATF with no trouble, but I do use a trust because I hate having to beg an anti-gun LEO for my permission slip.


And I use a corporation (because I had one before the idea to use a trust came along) and a C&R FFL which I applied for as a corporation but came back to me.
12/18/2008 5:02:11 PM EDT
[#4]
It looks like I am going to pursue another route. Any feedback or comments would be greatly appreciated.

After working with my attorney, I have decided to start an LLC for an "ordnance consulting" company specializing in evaluating and recommending suppressor use by state, local law enforcement agencies and independent security companies. We will be an impartial consulting firm that simply evaluates their needs and makes recommendations on solutions for the law enforcement community. We will not do any sales or distribution of any devices but help bridge the gap between manufactures and agencies to satisfy their needs. We will also collect and evaluate suppressors that are currently available so that we can make better recommendations to our customers.

It's probably a good thing that I have a full time job to fall back upon as I expect this new company to operate at a substantial loss for several years to come.





12/18/2008 7:11:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
It looks like I am going to pursue another route. Any feedback or comments would be greatly appreciated.

After working with my attorney, I have decided to start an LLC for an "ordnance consulting" company specializing in evaluating and recommending suppressor use by state, local law enforcement agencies and independent security companies. We will be an impartial consulting firm that simply evaluates their needs and makes recommendations on solutions for the law enforcement community. We will not do any sales or distribution of any devices but help bridge the gap between manufactures and agencies to satisfy their needs. We will also collect and evaluate suppressors that are currently available so that we can make better recommendations to our customers.

It's probably a good thing that I have a full time job to fall back upon as I expect this new company to operate at a substantial loss for several years to come.







I'd still recommend you set uop a Trust because I seriously doubt having that company wold get your Sherriff to sign off on future Form 4's.  He'll still find some reason to puch back on you per the orders and urgings from the NC Attorney General.  The Local CLEO's aren't the problem....the AG is!
12/18/2008 7:36:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:

I'd still recommend you set uop a Trust because I seriously doubt having that company wold get your Sherriff to sign off on future Form 4's.  He'll still find some reason to puch back on you per the orders and urgings from the NC Attorney General.  The Local CLEO's aren't the problem....the AG is!


LLCs, like trusts and corporations, are all legal "persons" can submit Form1s and Form 4s without CLEO sign-off.

In NC, a corporation, LLC, or trust can submit Form 1s and Form 4s for SBRs, SBSs, suppressors, and AOWs "Consistent with the laws of the US and NC 14-288.8 Section 4".  These Form 1s and 4s do not require CLEO sign off and BATFE will approve them (if they are done right).

MGs, no matter what the legal entity, still require a MG permit issued by the sheriff of the county, so regardless of whether the CLEO (sheriff) has to sign the Form 4 (individual) or doesn't (corporation, LLC or trust), he still has to issue a MG permit.
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