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Posted: 1/4/2007 7:35:22 PM EDT
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I recently switched to water based stain so I could adjust color on three piece Garand stock sets. They had a light coat of BLO two hours and are still shiny. The stocks I just finished are shown sanded in the first three photos. The other two were done last weekend with oil based stain. I've made some mistakes. All these stocks were 15 or 20 dollar stocks, all M-14 came with metal except one the has the cutout filled. That was $10 and I love it. I can slip a nice rifle in there and go get dirty. I finish inside also thinking it will seal the wood and hopefully warp less. Four stocks have DOD and P cartouches all M14's. I found the two red handguards and matched one stock to them. One of the handguard will stain perfectly to match. I have a bleached front Garand handguard in the attic that I can get to match for a full set. Just having fun playing with the rifles.... ARDog                   Before finishing....  
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Hey, ARDOG-- Nice work--did you pick the stocks up at Doug's Stockpile? Inre: water-based stain--how do you find working with it? (Brand?) Can you 2nd coat? Does it open up the grain too much? What grit abrasive do you like to use for a final sanding/pre-stain? Sorry for all the questions--I'll be refinishing myself in a couple weeks. --David |
| Yes to Dougs for the Garands but I get stocks at shows and I'm hawking for deals and have made purchases steadily. I used two applications for water based stain in every case. Boy does the grain stand up! I used the Minwax preparation solution and Minwax water based stain. Make sure you wipe of ALL excess with a damp cloth. A PIA with the dark stains that streak. 3 minutes on is almost too long. I sanded with superfine 220 or 320 between coats, every coat. The "little soldiers" will be at attention especially with birch or beech. |
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ARDog-- Clearly you've been around the block a coupla times in the stock re-finishing department. Have you ever used the dishwasher to clean up/prep a stock? Every time I bring it up it's like I'm saying "I pissed in my gas tank and now I get 60 miles to the gallon". (Dur. Dur-hur-hur) What gives? --David PS> Yes, y'all--I understand that you should not (ever) refinish a stock with cartouches. |
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Quoted: ARDog-- Clearly you've been around the block a coupla times in the stock re-finishing department. Have you ever used the dishwasher to clean up/prep a stock? Every time I bring it up it's like I'm saying "I pissed in my gas tank and now I get 60 miles to the gallon". (Dur. Dur-hur-hur) What gives? --David Are you sitting down? All the Garand stocks in the top pic came out of the dishwasher. I found another nice way on crappy stocks (no way am I putting a nice stock in the DW) It doesn't need it! These were like the ones on the stack on the floor leaning on my work bench. Pretty banged up with thick crud on them. Try putting them in the basement utility sink or a basin and HOT water. Some use the bathtub. Get a nice new SOS pad and scrub them soapy. If the water in your house is HOT it will raise some dents so they are less pronounced. I have saved paint on the stocks but rarely. History to some. I don't sand out or steam out everything perfect. They turn out great with character marks, sorta like beauty marks on women. I cut a square of duct tape for cartouches. Fairly waterproof. You would be suprised how many cartouches have turned up under the crud that I could not see before. DON't pay too much for stocks. I see them going for more than $50 and unless they were really something, they are not worth it. An SOS pad, assorted sandpaper, walnut stain, and BLO is all you really need to make them nice. Don't spend for all the fancy stuff while learning. I find lots of stocks at shows in the unlikely spots. Like AR tables or foriegn rifle tables. ANYTHING BUT the main Garand/M1A/M14 tables. $10-15-20 dollars. Look in barrels of mixed stocks. To these other tables they are just junk to get rid of. Look for Garand handguards in the wood stock scrap piles/boxes/barrels. I have been getting those for $10 also. the same show will have the same pieces for $30-$100 for HANDGUARDS! The water or alcohol based stains are only worth it if you want to go darker or tint the shade reddish or whatever, AFTER you have stained it once. It gives you a second chance because the water and alcohol based stains don't seal the wood for good like oil based.Too much a PIA otherwise because it's so fussy to wipe of the excess water based stain in time or just right. Hope that helped. ARDog |
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AR dog What is your goal. Do you want to learn replicate GI finishes? Practice restorations? Match varying shades of walnut to one another? Here is a great forum dedicated to Mil surp stocks ( I think you have to register to view.) It's hosted by Cabinetman and he comes to this forum. p102.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm34 The "C&R Riflestock Cleaning and Preservation Forum" at Parralax Bills is dedicated to understanding how these old finishes were applied and ways to keep them renewed. Lots of techniques are discussed and great input can be found. Russian stocks, USGI types, Finnish finishes. and all manner of military finishing. I think you are on the right track, in that you have lots of different types of wood to practice on. That is the best way to figure out how different finishes work. Trying one experiment at a time though has helped me correct my mistakes before duplicating them. Practicing on junkers is where to learn how not to mess up the good ones. Commercial oil stains are going to have hard time coming close the feel of a well cared for original. Which is not to say the original looking stocks are not possible. For adding color and hue a built up oil finish can create a surprising amount of detail. I can't say enough about Behr's 600 Scandi Tung Oil Finish ( TOF). Oil based stain and Tung Oil Finish are not in the same family. The formulation is a great blend of Tung, BLO and driers. Much better that BLO itself for a working rifle. It's getting hard to find and I'm almost out myself. Not all tung oils are created equal. Some are mostly varnish and low amounts of tung. Of these three Garand stocks the ones on the left and right are in original finish. The walnut one in the middle was a filthy gouged roach with Korean rack #'s from Doug's that I sanded and refinished with Behr's 600 Scandi TOF.  Alcohol based dyes like "Chestnut Ridge military stock stain" is great for adding degrees of amber and red to walnut and birch. Fieblings leather dye (From shoe repair joints) has many other colors to experiment with. Alcohol stains can be put down on top of the first coat of TOF and if you want to pull back on the richness you can lift it off with a paper towel and plain denatured alcohol. Then when you have it the way you want it build an oil finish on top to seal it. We have all ruined stocks. I wrecked some with oven cleaner ( with Lye ). It was walnut and it took on a wicked green streak where the grain pattern changed. The lye keeps damaging the fibers after we have refinished and put the gun away. That said, I have since experimented with one Johnny Reb mentioned, The Easy Off Fume Free with No Lye ( no lie) and find it useful to bust through the first layer of crap on and heavily cosmo'ed rifle. I won't leave it on for more than 5 mins brush it off with mineral spirits then proceed with detail stripping. It can help get a lot of the big stuff of the way on a filthy mil surp. I like Citristrip for detail stripping because I can use it indoors it smells fresh and rinse it down the sink. A really dirty stock may need more than one application. Let the wood dry two days before oiling. If the stock is not to bad and you just want to renew the old oil finish and clean the dirt out I go the steel wool and Alcohol route first. Some times that's all you want. If it's still dirty, Lacquer Thinner on a folded paper towel. As it gets filthy just fold the towel to a clean spot to keep lifting. If it's still dirty Xtra Strength Acetone and the same refolded towel technique. Apply TOF to desired depth of finish. Here is an O3 that had a finger groove stock. I did nothing invasive to this one just detailed cleaning with Acetone and re-oiling.   Good luck JR |
Racecar, As would I like to thank you. This is exactly the "next step" information I need at this stage. I recognize those three stocks! I want to make one thing clear. I have a bunch of Garands from CMP that I have aquired as a hobby and investment. I will never touch most of these other that to clean the stocks carefully and apply a few coats of tung. I would not suggest anyone take their CMP's and do this! I will not destroy history. These stocks are dougs beaters and gun show junk. I have been refinishing stocks for woodless rifles and rifles that need replacements. Let me get some sets I've finished out of the attic and take pics. You can not replace the patina of originals, at least easily. I am getting ready to go hunting on one of the last days of deer season. After that,I am getting ready to go to Texas for a week leaving Tuesday. If I don't post, I would like to get back to this in a couple weeks. Got more pix racecar? ARDog |
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I agree with both of you fellows. Patina is quite beautiful. My definition of patina would involve handling marks made by a US infantryman during training or in wartime in defense of the United States. What the Greeks did to the Garands is (in my mind) more akin to vandalism--and not all that worthy of preservation. I could be wrong. --David |
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I would agree clean as best you can, perhaps some steel wool but keep the sander in the cabinet. I ahve been waiting for a cherry blank I sent off to have cut into a Garand stock for a woodless I purchased. Well it came last week and needed a little fitting and some minor sanding but the cherry was pretty light. I enjoy working with woods and prefer natural color. I was just not comfortable with the light cherry for a gun stock. I looked at several stains and got a cherry 2X4 out to put some samples on. Long story short I decided to take a .25 sample stain and mix that with a couple ounces of BLO and apply for a first coat. The stain full strenght was just too much. BLO mixes well with oil based stains and came out just exactly what I wanted. Tonight I will put straight blo on wait 24 hours and then I think I will mix a 50/50 blo & tung oil mix for the final coat. The tung oil seems to stiffen the wood fibers for fewer dings as it gets used. I will snap a few pics and post. Chinook3 |
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Racecar-- Do you know what the composition of the Behr finish is--% Blo/Tung/etc? The guys on the site you referenced (very good site/see link) really seem to think highly of it. I drove 70 miles today looking for Tung oil--real Tung oil--every corner ACE has "Tung Oil Finish"--any idea of where to look? I called all the local cabinetmakers, checked all the paint shops--I might have to head down to Phoenix tomorrow & see if I can find it there. I'm willing to pay the $35/quart for the real stuff, but where to get it? Any heads up would be appreciated--my project has hung fire here, and I'm starting to chafe. Thanks. --David PS> Gorgeous '03. |
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I have used Gunscrubber to get the thick crap off and then denatured alcohol for the final wipedowns on my first two Garands. The third one I used a cosmoline cooker on it after I removed the surface crud as mentioned above. After the final alcohol wipe I let it dry and use Tung Oil thined out at a 1/3 thinner and 2/3 Tung Oil mixture. I let it sit for a couple minutes, then buff it out with an old white tshirt. I do two coats of this, then I do one coat of uncut Tung Oil. I don't let it sit on there long enough for it to get shiney. I let it dry for a day, then use beeswax to seal it up. |
Reports from folks who have talked to Behr have communicated that 600 TOF is over 30% Raw tung oil. The rest is a mixture of linseed oil and japan driers to aid in curing. www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html has Pure raw Tung oil. Raw tung oil takes several days to cure and is more user friendly in the Behr's formulation. Raw linseed oil has a similar long curing time ( multiple days ) with far less barrier protection. The term "Boiled Linseed Oil" has come to mean raw linseed oil that has had (japan) driers added to speed curing time. The boiling part is just a historical reference to how the finish used to be applied ( Hot, to aid penetration. ). I have repeatedly asked for behrs TOF at Home depot ( they own Behrs). Behr's 600 Scandi Tung Oil Finish is definitley being discontinued under that name. There is some stock remaining at Behr and may be ordered from them at the toll-free number. Behr's toll-free: 1-877-237-6158  . JR |
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Just adding to the knowlege base: According to the Fine Woodworking Magazines, 99% of what is sold as "Tung Oil" has little or no tung oil in it. It's basically varnish cut 50% with solvent. Fact--research it yourself if you like, I did. I got a quart of pure Tung oil at Rockler (National chain of fine Woodworking and Hardware shops--store locator online) 1 Quart (Contents: This product contains pure Tung oil) cost me $18--thinned down with mineral spritis to working strength, I've probably got enough to last me the rest of my life---ARDog probably about a weekend. Beeswax--they sell blocks the size of a BIG Hershey bar for $19--if you only want a little, you can buy a small tube of "Rockler's Screw Lube" for $1.99--ingredients: "Made with a combination of Beeswax and oils..."--but it is non-oily to the fingers and looks like beeswax to me--the chick at the checkout counter offered it as a cheaper alternative to the brick. For your consideration--during my earlier (fruitless) search for Tung oil I got a can of "Teak Oil". I researched the Data Sheet and "Teak Oil" is Boiled linseed oil, Naptha (for penetration) and an unspecified resin. It is used to protect teakwood on boats, providing both UV protection and waterproofing. It is designed to quickly penetrate and waterproof oily woods--Teak, Mahogany, etc. Few woods are as oily as a greasy milsurp rifle--and perhaps the mixture overcomes (via the unspecified resin) BLO's main shortcoming--BLO has weak properties inre: waterproofing. You might want to give a can of this a try on some scrap--see how it looks. Just a thought. ALSO available at Rockler--thin birch veneer--1 inch wide X 12" long. It is about as thick as a business card. You/shooters can use this (Read: glue this) into the trigger-lockup areas in a non-JcGarand match rifle to tighten up the lock-up. Trim with a razor-blade, tweak the fit, and stain. Repeat: it makes your rifle ineligible for JCGaradn matches--bit it will tighten your groups. That's about it. ARDog--please post a brand name of the Walmart/hair-dressing supply of your beeswax, if you have time between fondling your fine new Garands. And we might was well get the recipe for Gunny Paste into the public record--with tips/techniques if possible. I'll need it soon enough. Most of the useless shitheads on this board probably don't deserve the legwork being done for them, but there are a few who do--and for them we ought persist. I have no idea who raised the others--it certainly wasn't my parents. Thank you. --David |
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Murray's beeswax in 3.5 OZ jar. I have heard that beeswax can be found in the hardware store. If you ask 10 employees you will get 10 answers, I'll make a money bet on it. I bought two quarts of Tung Oil from a woodworking supply house. I don't trust the content. It was all I could find closer than an hours drive. It is "Hope's 100% Tung Oil" It says it is not thinned and contains no petroleum distillates. They also sell a product called Tung Oil Varnish so one can only hope (lol) they know the difference. Gunny's Paste is not an exact science. All the recipes where you measure exact amounts are fine for others. I am a chemist and this is organic chemistry. It's like cooking after you know your way around the kitchen. I don't measure there either. Here is my recipe, you fuss with it until it makes you happy, it's hard to mess up. In a mason jar I mixed half and half BLO and Tung, I took a blob of wax which was about 50% of the volume in the mason jar making the solution/mixture one third, one third, one third. Now add an equal part of turpentine. I am now out of turpentine and I only see only turpentine substitute at Home Depot so they must have figured out that turpentine is poison, heh. This is a topic in itself. You will see how much fun measuring the wax is, you could do it by wieght if you have a scale but this wax is going to be all over you and the stuff you are using to measure. You will settle for a blob so just relax. Now for the fun. The reason for the mason jar is that it can be heated within reason without cracking. You can put this in the microwave and melt the wax into the oils. When this cools it can be applied to wood with a small cloth and later buffed out. The finish is not glossy. This stuff is great for filling in grain without a zillion coats of oil. That's fine for one rifle stock but after a few it's a full time job. The best part of all this is that I made a large batch and divided it into 6 mason jelly jars. I went to the dollar store and bought Kiwi shoe polish in brown, cordovan and neutral. Then I added various amounts to color my Gunny's Paste. I made light and dark browns, light and dark cordovan (has that red/purple tone), I put neutral in one and left one alone. Heat and stir until well mixed and let it cool. I used shoe polish tins and small jars. Baby food jars would work, haven't had a source in 13 years.  Thing is, I heat them on top of my shop kero heater or in the microwave before applying. The consistancy is going to evolve every time you heat the solution so don't heat the whole volume every time, use small jars in the microwave or tins if you are stupid enough to set one on top of the heater. Imagine spilling hot wax on an open flame heater. Hey, everyone doesn't have my background so just use common sense and be cautious. One or two coats of Tung or BLO after a single application of Gunny's is all it takes. I like BLO, heck it's already sealed so who cares if BLO doesn't seal all by itself. I like the finish. OK so the fast route to a finished stock goes like this. Dishwasher, sand till smooth, stain, make sure it's still smooth, apply a coat of Gunny's and two coats of BLO. Your mileage may vary and nothing in print is a substitute for getting dirty. GO have fun and write about it. ARDog |
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There are a few other great threads going on with long time masters. Here is one of interest: Read PW |
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