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Posted: 3/30/2015 1:28:24 PM EDT
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So, I've apparently lost my mind recently.
Attended a gun-show this past weekend. Found a great deal on a slightly used Sig P220, and from there... I guess... is where and when I must have lost a screw from inside of my head. Now, I am the proud owner of a very accurate and fun-to-shoot P220... and, a brand-new Springfield Armory M1A 22" barrel with the factory Archangel-stock still in the box. From the limited amount of research I've found, these rifles like 150 gr to 168 gr bullets. Any confirmation from an M1A-owner would be helpful here. I don't have accessories, dies or anything, yet... but, I'd like to build this up as an accuracy-project... and, hopefully use it as my all-around shooter for hogs, deer, and anything else that happens to wander into the cross-hairs. Weight isn't an issue, since I have primarily hunted my entire life with a 30-06 semi that weighed-in at around 13 1/2 lbs. And, there will be a permanent scope attached... so, medium-range, (100-500 yds), will be the rifle's goal. So, does anyone have any information on powder, bullets, etc. they can share on the topic? I was thinking of purchasing some once-fired brass to work up a load with, and then consider some new brass if that seemed logical. Powder seems to be in the realm of what's typically used with .223-loads, but I am open to suggestions. And, bullets... well, there are plenty to choose from... so, if anyone can point me in a direction that these rifles like, I'd really be appreciative. Thanks so much for viewing my post. |
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Military surplus brass works great in M1-A's. Lower your powder charges 2.0 full grains when using it.
My loads are as follows: 168 grain Sierra Match Kings seated to 2.800" Lake City brass average weight empty and unprimed 179 grains. Winchester standard large rifle primers 40.5 grains of IMR-4895 41.5 grains of IMR-4064 40.0 grains of H4895 43.0 grains of WW-748 I consider these maximum when using Lake City brass. If you have a chronograph 2500 fps is about maximum when using Lake City brass with any of these powders and 168 grain match bullets. |
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The 168 load mentioned above should be fine with 165gr hunting bullets too.
I currently use 42gr WC-844 with a 147gr fmj. To mimic M80 ball ammo. You can use H-335 and work up the same if you don't have any WC-844. Either way you should work up the load for your rifle. I already settled on Hornady 150gr SST for hunting with mine. I intend to use the WC-844 with these as well. BTW: The load above is in GI brass. Motor1 |
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You guys are awesome. I knew that I would be pointed in the right direction with all of your help.
I've got plenty of the primers, so that shouldn't be an issue. As for the mentioned powders, the closest I have is about six-and-a-half pounds of H335. Will have to see if I can find the IMR 4895 or others to begin working up the load. Brass shouldn't be an issue, I would assume. And, bullets - well, I'll look this evening and see about those. As for the dies... should I go "balls-out" and get the Redding or Forster dies? Or, will the typical RCBS ones work just fine? Will probably still get the Forster Ultra Seating Die, since I love the other two I have so well. Although it's probably surprising to many, I've not owned a .308 before. Shocking, right? And, finally... would you use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for these rounds? I tend to purchase one for whatever caliber I order dies for, but what would you all suggest? Again, thanks to everyone for your insightful comments on this post. Very appreciative of your suggestions. |
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Quoted:
I strongly suggest you read these 2 articles... http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf http://www.zediker.com/downloads/oncefired.pdf Thanks for this. OP I'd look for something other than Match bullets for hunting. |
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Thanks 458WinMag...
Got that printed off along with bfoosh06's information, as well. And, as a minor update - I did find the mount, rings, and scope this evening. So, that will be the first-phase of this little project when they arrive. Also, found Sierra 168 gr BTHPs and Hornady 168 gr AMAXs to top off whatever brass I end up using. Haven't had the time to read all of this wonderful material that's hot off of the printer. As always, thanks for all of the great comments. (Also, 458WinMag ~ I am just going to focus on getting an accurate load dialed-in, and then switch to a Sierra GameKing or something along that route once I find what the rifle likes best. Berger makes a round that may fit the bill and be accurate, as well. Just look forward to crossing that bridge when the time comes. And, thank you for the suggestion,) |
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Here is the link mentioned. |
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I shot one for several seasons in highpower matches.
Mine shot well with any powder I tried - 748, varget, 3031, 4064, you name it. Any of the match or varmint type bullets shot well. I preferred the 125 gr speer varmint bullets for 200/300 yards, and 168/175's for 600. It is an amazing rifle that shoots anything well I stuffed into it. It is not a load sensitive rifle. |
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Quoted:
I strongly suggest you read these 2 articles... http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf http://www.zediker.com/downloads/oncefired.pdf This^ Is the Answer you seek. |
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Thanks for the posts -
And, thanks for posting the link to the referring information, dryflash3. I figured you'd pop in at some point to check up on me. (grin) Also, thanks for sharing your experience with the M1A-platform, Elwood_Blues. Will probably use some of the H335 according to the Hodgdon website load-data to work-up from, and monitor it with the chronograph and visually inspecting the brass. If I can find some other powder by the 8 lb jug, then I'll stock up to find what works, as well. If anyone else knows about "slam-fire" issues with the M1A, I'd like to know. Springfield included a pamphlet that made reference to it, and mentioned that harder primers, (like typically found in 7.62 x 51mm ammo), is suggested to be used. I don't know. So I'm asking the group if this is something I should be made aware of, or is it just prudent rhetoric by the manufacturer to cover their ass? I'll get around to posting a pic or two sometime tomorrow, Vinny302. Without the scope-mount, rings, and scope - it won't be as exciting, in my opinion. I just happened to see it and - as mentioned in the original-post - my brain stopped working, and my wallet opened without another thought. (blink, blink) You're right, PR361 - the info provided by bfoosh06 is very detailed and informative. Haven't gone all of the way through it... since I'm on another job, at the moment... but, I will before morning. Again, thanks to all who've posted here. Any and all information is very much appreciated. |
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The owners manual that came with my M1A "loaded" says any .308 Winchester ammo loaded to SAMMI specs is OK to use.
I find it hard to believe that all commercial .308 ammo is loaded with mil-spec hard primers. This combined with the fact that MOST M1As that are used in competition are shooting hand loads with standard primers tells me the M1A does not have a slam fire issue. If you seat your primers below flush you should not have any trouble. Motor1 |
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I agree totally, Motor1.
The included pamphlet is titled: The Mysterious Slam-Fire / by: Wayne Faatz Apparently, this dude was a competition-guy. Had some rapid-fire sessions and the action kind of broke due to a slam-fire. He got the rifle repaired and began a bunch of tests. Most of them were dangerous, in my opinion. He installed primers not fully seated. Used pistol primers in every "no-no" situation you could imagine. Cut legs off of primers and set them. The list goes on. He did everything he could to recreate a slam-fire. Almost all tests were not productive. I understand a person wanting to know why something happened, but not to intentionally create unrealistic scenarios. It seemed more like an attempt to offer validity to a bunch of ridiculous tests. Maybe ego was involved to prove a point internally. Seemed more destructive than constructive, but I could just be assessing it all wrong. It's a re-print of an article in American Rifleman from October 1983. Springfield endorsed the article. Mentioned that using hand-loads, reloads, or re-manufactured ammo is not advised... and, will void the warranty. And, that's all I have to say about that. |
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This is what the rifle looks like, Vinny302. In person after handling it, the urge to purchase overcame my ability to think. Either way, I am extremely happy with the rifle overall. Can't wait to dress it up and get it sighted in. I'm hoping to get the scope and rings by the end of the week. The mount was back-ordered. (sad) Still, I'm glad that folks have directed me toward finding what will work "load-wise" for this rifle. As always, I work-up two powders per caliber, and I plan on doing just that. Thanks so much for everyone's input to the topic. Always appreciated from the many members. |
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I got no idea who Wayne Faatz is, if he was the dud in the artcle. Sounds like someone was a dumb ass though.
When I got my SA Super Match in the 90's, it went auto out of the box. Lucky only two rds. in the mag. (M118SP). NCOIC told me it was "chicken finger". So I loader up ten and him shoot it. The armourer stoned one sweet trigger. Long story short. Always prove your loads, one at a time. Then work up |
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I hear you, 458winmag. Glad you are enjoying your trigger.
Hopefully one day soon, I can get it up and running to start my load work up. Brass and bullets probably won't be here until early next week. Admittedly, I'm rather excited. Grabbed a bi-pod this afternoon while I was out and about running errands; Harris swivel-model. Still kicking around the idea about loading-dies. Haven't got any of that on the way, yet. Most of what I have is RCBS-stuff. I blew a bunch of cash in the beginning getting multiple sets of dies in both standard and competition to find what worked best for my firearms. Along the way, I've added a couple of seating-dies from Forster - as well as, the Lee factory crimp dies for all rifles. Had asked in a previous post what others suggested brand-wise, since I have no experience with the M1A-platform. Since I don't plan on shooting without a scope "ever", (and, the mount has no delivery-date in sight), I can probably wait a bit. Thanks to all who've posted and helped me in the quest for reloading-information. All are very appreciated. |
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Skinnable, I had 2 full months to go over all this stuff. I did a lot of research and forum browsing. Since you like RCBS you may like this too.
I just bought my first set of RCBS "X" dies. Other people who use them for their M1As love them. Case prep the first time is a little different and to some confusing but isn't everything? 
For me prep was no big deal because I have at least 3 other sets of .308 Win dies. With the volume of shooting this thing can produce not having to trim brass seems like a very positive thing to me. Motor1 |
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I shot MOA out of my SOCOM (really!) using Sierra 110gr bullets with 40-42 grains of H4198 powder. 2.6" COL.
Also, go to these forums: user RAMMAC has a plethora of info in regards to m1a loads. He has his own sub-section. Great source for m1a load data. You will want to shim the gas system, get a gas piston and a bedded stock. I saw the pic of the stock you have, don't know how much flex you have. You will need to put some time in your rifle to get MOA. However, the rewards are worth it and it's a beautiful rifle! |
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Congratulations on owning one of the best battle rifles ever created!
I've been shooting an SA Standard for 2+ years, absolutely awesome machine. Lots of good info in the Zediker articles. My two cents: stick with LC, WCC, and other "military" brass. The M1A is incredibly hard on brass, not like an AR that gives 10-15 loadings a case. As a rule, I scrap M1A fired LC cases after the fourth firing, they may take another firing or two but case head separation is not fun. PMC brass can be reloaded twice (3 firings total), FC maybe once, and most other commercial brass maybe twice. Based on my personal experience. For powder, consider the trusted oldies: IMR 4064, IMR 4895, and IMR 3031 in that order. I will never use H335 in M1A, too fast burning, but use it exclusively in AR loads. That's my personal beliefs and nothing more. Main thing with the M1A s to control pressure and pressure curve. Otherwise op rod damage will occur. Slow burning powders, 150gr-175gr bullets (mine loves 165gr SST) and appropriate greasing guarantees years of fun with a truly beautiful machine. |
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I shoot the 125 up close (200yds) and either a 155/168/175 the rest of the way. I've used a lot of Varget, N140, but keep coming back to 4895 and 4064 because it's cheap and easy. I have been shooting cast bullets in it recently which has been fun and interesting and pretty much all of the usual bullet weight and powder limits goes out the window. Dies: Doesn't really matter much at all; mostly a matter of personal preference. I have a comp seater die, but mostly because I like the micrometer feature (which allows me to get the same seating as last time by dialing it to the same number). The x-die has some definite merits and I would personally lean in favor of that seating die. My thoughts on slamfires: FL resize and use preferably a case comparator set the die so that your resized cases are shorter by 0.002" (on average) than your fired cases. There are a couple other ways out there to ensure that you are resizing enough, but the comparator I think is best and gives you the longest case life. I cut my primer pockets a tad bit deeper, I clean them each time, and I check that they are all a little bit below flush. I've shot roughly 5k each of Winchester and Remington primers. Keep in mind also that gobs and gobs of Federal GMM has been shot in the M1A and that would be the Fed primer. You can use the CCI34; I haven't because they haven't been around when I needed to buy primers. |
For those of you who helped me with my decisions, figured I'd post this picture to satisfy your wants.
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This isn't the scope to be used for this particular rifle. Had to send the other scope back due to fuzz inside. The rings are obviously too tall, but this scope and rings are for my bolt-action. Just wanted everyone to be informed of the progress, so far. Get an idea of where this thing is headed. |
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Thanks for this. OP I'd look for something other than Match bullets for hunting. Quoted:
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I strongly suggest you read these 2 articles... http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf http://www.zediker.com/downloads/oncefired.pdf Thanks for this. OP I'd look for something other than Match bullets for hunting. I hunted a few seasons with my m1A. I only used SMK 168 gr bullets. I shot deer in every vital spot I could think of to test the terminal ballistics. I never lost a deer. I still use SMK in my 6.5 Grendel. Still haven't lost a deer. Sierra oesnt recommend using it for hunting, but dozens of deer have proven otherwise. |
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Just wanted to update the folks who helped guide me to find a good load for my new firearm. Again, thanks so much for all of your information and direction. This platform is quickly becoming an addiction, and I have all of you to thank for that realization.
A short history. Shot a round-at-a-time -- cleaned the barrel, bolt and flash suppressor -- shot another round -- etc. Did this up to 120 rounds, and began shooting 5-shots at a time doing the same cleaning routine. Continued until I reached 200 rounds. (This process took multiple days.) All ammunition used were 168 gr in the brands: Hornady (Box of 20 x 3), Black Hills (Box of 20 x 3), and Federal (Box of 20 x 4), respectively. The test-bed. This is using the Springfield Armory M1A, (22", 1 in 11" twist, 6-groove NM medium contour air-gauged carbon steel barrel), shooting on a bi-pod from a solid platform. Have replaced factory extractor with USGI extractor and replaced factory op-rod spring guide with Sadlak op-rod spring guide. Scope was Leupold Mark 4 -- 6.5 - 20 x 50 TMR. Targets were exactly 100 yards from end of barrel. Temperature averaged 76 degrees and 30% humidity during overcast with no sun throughout the entire testing procedure. Was under no time constraints, so all shots were taken to the absolute best of my ability. The 168 gr selection. There are a number of manufacturers out there, and I proceeded to try as many as I could justify to find something that would work for me. (The only powder that I could come up with at the time was IMR 4064... and, I purchased quite a bit.) These are the results I concluded using mentioned powder, once-fired LC brass trimmed to 2.005", Winchester Large-Rifle primers, and 168 gr BTHPs, primarily. All bullets were seated to 2.800" and Lee fatory crimp die was used sparingly. 1.) The Hornady A-Max was the first ladder I worked up. Found a sweet-spot with a powder charge of 41.2 gr using the 4064. After that, replicated that specific load and shot five 5-shot groups on targets - averaging 1.64 in on all targets. No fliers. 2.) The Sierra MatchKing was the second ladder I worked up. It preferred a little more powder charge of 41.4 gr using the 4064. Again, replicated that specific load and shot five 5-shot groups on targets - averaging 1.26 in on all targets. No fliers. 3.) The Nosler Custom Competition was my third ladder work-up. It scaled in best using a powder charge of 41.5 gr using the 4064. Surprisingly after replicating the specific load shooting five 5-shot groups on targets, it averaged 1.04 in on all targets. No fliers. 4.) The Berger Match Grade VLD, (not Match Target), was my final ladder to work up. It used less than previous loads preferring a powder charge of 41.0 using 4064. Replicated the specific load shooting five 5-shot groups on targets - averaging 1.18 in on all targets. No fliers. I was impressed with the overall results, knowing good and well this was not a precision rig of any sort. Still, there is quite a bit of potential there... or, so it seems. It could be my imagination, but this M1A seems to get a little more accurate the more I shoot it. I know that sounds silly, but it's just a feeling while behind it that makes me have the sensation. Again, I'd like to say a big "THANK YOU" to all of those who helped me with this. It's been a lot of fun to figure out what this thing can do with the right combination of components. Couldn't have made it to this point without the guidance from all of you. Sincerely, Skinnable |
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Nosler 168Gr HPBT's shoot exactly like Sierra Match Kings do for me, for 30% cheaper.
every M1A Ive owned has LOVED 42.0Gr Varget powder with a 168Gr HPBT in commercial cases, Ive run Lake City brass with 41.0-41.5Gr varget with no problems. I do however scrap my M1A and M1Garand brass after the 3rd firing, on the 4th I get case head separations no matter what the load is. I know someone will be along shortly to tell me what im doing wrong and that they get 90 billion reloads out of their M1A brass but... whatever. |
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The Nosler bullets are cheaper, thankfully. Just didn't get quite the same results on target using the Sierra's during my tests, builttoughf250. I mean, for the M1A-platform - I'm told that I can only expect so much from it. If I knew with absolute certainty that a medium contour Krieger stainless barrel could increase my accuracy, I'd try one. Until then, I have to work with what I have. So, I'm hoping to do another ladder-test when the weather gets colder down here.
Varget powder is something that I'm hording when making my 69 gr Sierra loads for my AR-platform. Found a recipe that works extremely well for it, so I'm somewhat "sand-bagging" it for that particular task. Seems the large jugs of Varget are non-existent, lately. As for the brass-life expectancy for the M1A, I was forewarned about it being very rough with them. So, I've begun a side-project to build an annealer to test a theory. If I can double the amount of reloads by annealing them, then I am hoping to get a few extra reloads out of what I can. Fortunately, I purchased enough brass to last a while. |
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