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Posted: 7/21/2015 8:49:15 AM EDT
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I feel like a newbee on this because I have read some conflicting information about loading with lead bullets for 45acp.
I have the procedures I use for loading 9mm and 45acp plated/FMJ down pat. No problem there. However, I just acquired myself a brand new Colt o5870A1 Series 70 National Match, so I thought it would be fun to load specifically for accuracy. So my first foray into the subject led to my choosing, as my first option, the 200gr H&G #68 lead bullet. Then it went downhill from there. Evidently according to various sources (including one of the companies that sells the bullets), I can't load using FMJ procedures, and the conflicting information I get is: 1. I "must" use the Lyman 2-Step M Expansion die or I will shave the lead when seating. 2. I "must not" crimp at all or something bad will happen. Not really sure what (if you don't crimp, how can you assure reliable chambering?). 3. I can't use my "standard" seating die, so I 'must" use a special die or different insert (???) so that the seater will not contact the top edge of the bullet, but rather, properly contact somewhere on the ogive of the bullet. 4. A couple of sources said that all the above is bunk and that I can just use my standard 45acp dies and not worry about any of that (again, I want to load for accuracy here). I know that there are some of you who are Match shooters and who likely load the H&G #68 (or possibly the H&G #130 185gr), so I'm hoping you can point me in the right direction on this. I don't need a basic primer course, just the abbreviated do's and dont's of loading lead bullets for precision. What I have to start with is the Lee Deluxe 4-die 45acp Carbide die set (this one: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/242098/lee-deluxe-carbide-4-die-set-45-acp ). So my question is; what do I need to change out or add to this set in order to be able to jump into loading lead bullets for my 1911 National Match? And please don't tell me to just get the Nosler 185 JHP's because they are just too darn expensive. Besides, I like a challenge. |
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Not sure where you got your misinformation. But MOST IS UTTERLY USELESS!
Lead bullets load no differently then any other bullet. Get a Lyman 49th manual as they have data for hard cast lead bullets. Plus, plated bullets use the same data hard cast lead. The only change may be with respect to the seating stem on the seater die. Some brands come with different seater plugs one for SWC profile and other for RN profile. Work up a load suit to your gun, and then repeat in quantity. No secrets! No Voodoo! |
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The only difference I see is lead or coated lead bullets will have more velocity vs jacketed bullets given the same powder charge.
I taper crimp lead and jacketed the same. Basically just to take the flare out of the case mouth and just a fraction more to prevent bullet setback. Nothing magic about loading lead. |
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rn22723:
Sounds fair, but you reference load data a couple of times. I am not confused at all by load data, only about the technique of getting a lead bullet into a case without damaging the much softer material. I tried to use DD before I posted this question by doing the diligent research ahead of time. I do know that there is a lot of bad info on the net, but some of the info I gave came right from the dealer who sells the H&G lead bullets. Evidently, improper sizing could allow some shaving when seating, and crimping can also damage the BHN 16 lead. What kind of match accuracy results have you gotten when you loaded lead for 45acp? I'd be interested. |
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I load a h&g 68 clone that's 12 bhn.
Make sure you flare enough without over doing it. If your at bare minimum to seat plated or jacketed you need more. I use the swc seating stem without issues but pull the press handle slower than with fmj to avoid deforming the nose. Never used the lee FCD I use a standard taper crimp die to remove the flare. Looking at the FCD instructions that may cause issues consider a standard taper crimp die. Seating depth is a pain. You will need to make up a couple to test without powder or primer to determine COAL that will work for you. My load will hit a clay pigeon on the 50 yard berm in my gun so accurate enough for my needs. Buy a small quantity and test to find out if your gun likes them or not. |
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No voodoo involved..Bell the case enough, crimp just enough to remove the bell. Really not even a crimp, just enough tension to give proper bullet hold.
You will need to keep up with cleaning the lube and crap out of the seat die. The 200 gr SWC is one of the most accurate lead bullets in a 45 |
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Quoted:
I load a h&g 68 clone that's 12 bhn. Make sure you flare enough without over doing it. If your at bare minimum to seat plated or jacketed you need more. I use the swc seating stem without issues but pull the press handle slower than with fmj to avoid deforming the nose. Never used the lee FCD I use a standard taper crimp die to remove the flare. Looking at the FCD instructions that may cause issues consider a standard taper crimp die. Seating depth is a pain. You will need to make up a couple to test without powder or primer to determine COAL that will work for you. My load will hit a clay pigeon on the 50 yard berm in my gun so accurate enough for my needs. Buy a small quantity and test to find out if your gun likes them or not. The seller of where I think I'll be buying from states that his are BHN 16, so just a tad harder. I guess you're saying that you use a standard die for flaring instead of any specialty "2-step", so I'll start with that. Then I have to take a look at my seater and see how that comes into play. Since the 45acp set of dies I have is the Lee, it includes by default the FCD die, so I just need to pick up a standard crimp die and then I'll start putting things together and see what happens. |
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Good info all around here.
The die set your using will be fine. The FCD will allow you to easily remove any bell in the case that you need so youre not shaving lead when seating, just dont over do it. A note about Hi-Tek coated. They are a little faster because they slicker, and can usually be driven a little harder than lead. I use an average of the starting loads for jacketed and lead for coated. Example: Starting for lead is 5gr, starting for jacketed is 6gr, I start at 5.5 for Hi-Tek coated. |
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Quoted: I feel like a newbee on this because I have read some conflicting information about loading with lead bullets for 45acp. I have the procedures I use for loading 9mm and 45acp plated/FMJ down pat. No problem there. However, I just acquired myself a brand new Colt o5870A1 Series 70 National Match, so I thought it would be fun to load specifically for accuracy. So my first foray into the subject led to my choosing, as my first option, the 200gr H&G #68 lead bullet. Then it went downhill from there. Evidently according to various sources (including one of the companies that sells the bullets), I can't load using FMJ procedures, and the conflicting information I get is: 1. I "must" use the Lyman 2-Step M Expansion die or I will shave the lead when seating. NO 2. I "must not" crimp at all or something bad will happen. Not really sure what (if you don't crimp, how can you assure reliable chambering?). NO 3. I can't use my "standard" seating die, so I 'must" use a special die or different insert (???) so that the seater will not contact the top edge of the bullet, but rather, properly contact somewhere on the ogive of the bullet. NO 4. A couple of sources said that all the above is bunk and that I can just use my standard 45acp dies and not worry about any of that (again, I want to load for accuracy here). True I know that there are some of you who are Match shooters and who likely load the H&G #68 (or possibly the H&G #130 185gr), so I'm hoping you can point me in the right direction on this. I don't need a basic primer course, just the abbreviated do's and dont's of loading lead bullets for precision. What I have to start with is the Lee Deluxe 4-die 45acp Carbide die set (this one: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/242098/lee-deluxe-carbide-4-die-set-45-acp ). So my question is; what do I need to change out or add to this set in order to be able to jump into loading lead bullets for my 1911 National Match? And please don't tell me to just get the Nosler 185 JHP's because they are just too darn expensive. Besides, I like a challenge. 1 thru 3 are false. In 45 ACP I like softer bullets than the normal "hard cast" that work well in 9mm. You don't need hard lead bullets below 1000 fps if the bullet fits the bore. You will want a .452 diameter bullet. Do some reading here, http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php (covers bullet hardness) also a great company to do business with. Price and service.  Sized case on left, middle belled case, right bullet sitting on properly belled case. So once your belling die is set correctly (should be the same as jacketed and plated bullets, just like the above). I prefer to seat bullets and crimp in a separate die. Your good here with your 4 die set. Don't over crimp, remove the bell and just a *tad* more. *tad*=slight amount After trying 10 or more powders, I have settled on Clays (plain Clays). 3.6 grs Clays with a 200 gr home cast SWC cycles my Kimber. 4.0 grs Clays for positive function with stock springs. W-231 is ok, I just like Clays better. WST is another good choice, but more recoil for me. You can use mixed cases, I use 1.250 as my OAL. You may have to vary this slightly for your pistol/bullets. Make a couple of dummy rounds and cycle them through you mag/pistol to ensure chambering/ejection before you load a batch. Good luck  One of my off hand targets using my Clays load. |
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Good stuff there, Dryflash.
Missouri does seem to offer a good selection, and I like that a shooter can choose the BHN hardness for the application. One more thing; what about the FCD die in my Lee set? It doesn't make sense to me, but I have read too often that the lower sizing ring can swage a lead bullet to a smaller diameter. Can I just use that included die, or for the sake of repeatable accuracy, should I change it out for a standard taper crimp die? |
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Quoted:
Good stuff there, Dryflash. Missouri does seem to offer a good selection, and I like that a shooter can choose the BHN hardness for the application. One more thing; what about the FCD die in my Lee set? It doesn't make sense to me, but I have read too often that the lower sizing ring can swage a lead bullet to a smaller diameter. Can I just use that included die, or for the sake of repeatable accuracy, should I change it out for a standard taper crimp die? Nope. Internet hear say horse crap. The FCD will not swage anything. The width of the bullet is narrower than the case. 45 ACP is a straight walled case. I could see it potentially squeezing the bullet too hard with the crimp if you set the die wrong. Use the FCD. Just set it up right. |
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Quoted: Good stuff there, Dryflash. Missouri does seem to offer a good selection, and I like that a shooter can choose the BHN hardness for the application. One more thing; what about the FCD die in my Lee set? It doesn't make sense to me, but I have read too often that the lower sizing ring can swage a lead bullet to a smaller diameter. Can I just use that included die, or for the sake of repeatable accuracy, should I change it out for a standard taper crimp die? A lot of posters say a LFC will swage the bullet smaller. I try to avoid the argument. All I can say is I use a FCD on my cast loads and have no accuracy problems that are not caused by the shooter (me). In 9mm I have Hornady dies. I bought an extra Hornady taper crimp die to make my 3 die set into a 4 die set. I also have a 9mm FCD. Having used both, I cannot tell any difference between the two. Like I posted earlier, don't over do the crimp. To me, that's the key here. |
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Auto loading cartridges
Inspect brass for defects and debris lodged in case and then clean with your method. Set your press up per OEM instructions. Sizer Die - resize and deprime the case Prime Case either on the press or off the press Set your case mouth expander die or powder thru expander (ie Dillon) powder measure to flare (aka bell case mouth enough to allow for the bullet to be set on top of case mouth. Does not take much. There is no magic to this...sort of trial and error. But, once set you are good to go. The dispense powder Seat Bullet to desired COAL in my case I seat 200gr LSWC to 1.250" I am a firm believer in seating is one step, and crimping a separate step. Crimp Bullet with a Taper crimp die NOT a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die. Set crimp to be in the neighborhood of plus or minus 0.001" off of .470 at the case mouth. Each brand of brass will have varying neck wall thickness. Over crimping will potentially strip plating off of plated bullets. The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die actually resizes the bullet, and potentially down sizing the nominal diameter of cast lead bullets so much so that they potentate leading of the barrel. Shoot bullets! Punch Holes in Target! |
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Quoted:
Crimp Bullet with a Taper crimp die NOT a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die. Set crimp to be in the neighborhood of plus or minus 0.001" off of .470 at the case mouth. Each brand of brass will have varying neck wall thickness. Over crimping will potentially strip plating off of plated bullets. The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die actually resizes the bullet, and potentially down sizing the nominal diameter of cast lead bullets so much so that they potentate leading of the barrel. Shoot bullets! Punch Holes in Target! That's something I'm trying to wrap my head around so maybe you could explain a bit further. The bottom carbide ring of the Lee FCD travels OUTSIDE the case diameter. The bullet (of any kind) fits INSIDE the case. So how exactly does the bottom sizing ring swage the bullet itself when, if the bottom sizing ring were to actually contact the bullet enough to swage it, it would hang up and just crush the top of the case? It seems to me that if a bullet is swaged smaller in the Lee FCD, then that would have come as a result of over crimping (at the case mouth by the top crimping ring) and not by the bottom sizing ring of the FCD die. I'm just not getting that. In fact, Lee themselves states that the bottom sizing ring on their FCD will NOT always contact the case at all. It is only there to true up those few cases that have become malformed enough that they would be difficult to feed without the help of the FCD die. Where am I going wrong with all this? |
My wife used to compete with a Colt Series 80 Gold Cup in .45 ACP. I made her ammunition using a Dillon Square Deal B progressive. I used 230 grain lead round bullets that were cast by Gene Christophel in Phoenix over Accurate Arms No. 5. (I would have to go look up the powder charge weight in my record book.) The main secrets to accuracy were not secrets at all. First, Gene cast really good and consistent bullets. I don't know what they ran in Brinell hardness was, but they were a 6% antimony alloy. From each box of 500 bullets, I'd weigh all of them and separate them into three to five groups. They were generally groups of 228 to 232 grains, groups of 233 to 236 grains, groups of 223 to 227 grains, and then two groups of upper end and lower end outliers. The center group of bullets wasn't necessarily the most preferable. It was consistency that mattered. So I would load up a batch using one brand of cases and one group of bullet weights, packaging and labeling them as such. Then I'd do the same with the other two groups. My wife consistently won or placed second. 
I can recommend Missouri Bullet without hesitation, by the way. But I'd do the same weighing with any brand and type of bullet that I was going to load for best accuracy. |
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Quoted:
I use the M die on both 45 acp and 45 colt . Personal preference If I was not using a Dillon Square Deal, I would probably use a Lyman M Die. As it is, the proprietary powder feed dies that come with the SDB and the conversion kits do a sufficient job of slightly belling the top of the case. So there's no need to expand cases any further. Proper adjustments are essential, just as with any dies. Once correctly adjusted, I never had s problem with lead shaving on lead bullets or plating shaving on plated bullets, nor with jacket shaving from jacketed bullets. |
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Quoted: That's something I'm trying to wrap my head around so maybe you could explain a bit further. The bottom carbide ring of the Lee FCD travels OUTSIDE the case diameter. The bullet (of any kind) fits INSIDE the case. So how exactly does the bottom sizing ring swage the bullet itself when, if the bottom sizing ring were to actually contact the bullet enough to swage it, it would hang up and just crush the top of the case? It seems to me that if a bullet is swaged smaller in the Lee FCD, then that would have come as a result of over crimping (at the case mouth by the top crimping ring) and not by the bottom sizing ring of the FCD die. I'm just not getting that. In fact, Lee themselves states that the bottom sizing ring on their FCD will NOT always contact the case at all. It is only there to true up those few cases that have become malformed enough that they would be difficult to feed without the help of the FCD die. Where am I going wrong with all this? Quoted: Quoted: Crimp Bullet with a Taper crimp die NOT a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die. Set crimp to be in the neighborhood of plus or minus 0.001" off of .470 at the case mouth. Each brand of brass will have varying neck wall thickness. Over crimping will potentially strip plating off of plated bullets. The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die actually resizes the bullet, and potentially down sizing the nominal diameter of cast lead bullets so much so that they potentate leading of the barrel. Shoot bullets! Punch Holes in Target! That's something I'm trying to wrap my head around so maybe you could explain a bit further. The bottom carbide ring of the Lee FCD travels OUTSIDE the case diameter. The bullet (of any kind) fits INSIDE the case. So how exactly does the bottom sizing ring swage the bullet itself when, if the bottom sizing ring were to actually contact the bullet enough to swage it, it would hang up and just crush the top of the case? It seems to me that if a bullet is swaged smaller in the Lee FCD, then that would have come as a result of over crimping (at the case mouth by the top crimping ring) and not by the bottom sizing ring of the FCD die. I'm just not getting that. In fact, Lee themselves states that the bottom sizing ring on their FCD will NOT always contact the case at all. It is only there to true up those few cases that have become malformed enough that they would be difficult to feed without the help of the FCD die. Where am I going wrong with all this? I'm not the best one to answer your question, but I'll try to give you some food for thought. If that's a good thing. I use a Lee FCD in my .38 special loads, with 158gr. Lasercast LSWC. They're pretty hard bullets, but I haven't ever noticed my FCD contacting the bullet. If it is contacting it isn't much. In fact, I can't ever remember and marks on my soft Speer 158gr. LSWCHP. It's true that it won't always contact the case. Sometimes you will feel a little "bump" where it's truing up the case. I would give it a shot with the FCD and see if your results are acceptable. If not you could always buy another taper crimp die. And yes, as Dryflash said in semi-auto cartridges I crimp just enough to take out the bell and a tad bit more. It's hard to explain, but it's not much. I'm willing to bet that with the equipment you have you will get some very good results. I'm just not accurate enough with a handgun to be a good judge of accuracy.  |
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Yes, mr. most unfortunate username ;)
What you just described is exactly what I believe to be true as to how I (and dryflash as well) believe the FCD die to work, and that it "shouldn't" effect the lead bullet UNLESS the cartridge is way over crimped (something I have long ago figured out not to do with any kind of bullet). I'm going to get some Missouri H&G #68's coming and get started with the full Lee die set I have. The only thing I noticed is that the seater insert looks like it will only push on the very top of the bullet, and that could lead to a small degree of tilting since it's not controlling the bullet as well that way. I'll have to look around and see what other types of inserts might be available for the Lee seater. Thanks guys, I think I've got a place to start on this now. |
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The only type of crimp on lead 45acp loads should be taper .
Some die sets make it difficult to bell the case mouth which is usually the way most folks find the best for lead bullets . Just a tiny bit of flair or bell is all that is needed if you are setting the bullet on the case more or less square. Then the taper crimp turns the case back to straight . For one reason or another you might see some small lead shaving on a few of the cases but if you are set up correctly you won't see much. Key to accuracy and function with semi wadcutter lead in a 45acp is over all length (oal) Depending on magazine type and the throat of a particular gun this could vary . Different brands of bullets , although similar weight and style can have different dimensions which all are critical with the short stubby cartridge. I have had best results with faster powders like Bullseye and 231. You get more than five reloaders in a room and you will be hard pressed to get more than two agreeing on what is the "right" way to do anything. You have a great cartridge and a good bullet , neither of which is fussy . Take your time and keep records and it shouldn't be too hard to get decent accuracy |
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The FCD never comes close to touching the bullet. If it were to swage bullets, and I'm not sure that it does, it would do it by squeezing on the outside of the case causing the inside casewalls to press against the bullet thereby swaging it down. Just like putting it in a vise and tightening it. If you have brass with different case wall thicknesses you may run into swaging. I've noticed that some brands hardly touch the die at all while others make noticeable contact. I haven't noticed any difference in the accuracy of either. To the OP: You can use the seater die in your kit to crimp with but I do it in separate steps to avoid shaving lead. The way the die works if you are seating and crimping at the same time is, the seater is still pushing down on the bullet while the crimping part starts to squeeze the mouth closed. That results in a small ring of lead on top of the case mouth which will interfere with headspace. I seat and crimp revolver rounds in the same step only because the bullet has a crimp groove. That groove allows the mouth to start closing before the bullet is fully seated without shaving. Auto-pistol bullets don't have that groove so it will shave lead or jacket material. I would test both crimpers before deciding on one. You could get better accuracy from one or not notice any difference at all. Since you're trying to get the best load you can it would only make sense to try everything. I also try to make the most accurate load in every caliber I reload. After all, isn't that one of the top reasons to make your own ammo in the first place ? You chose a great cartridge to start with. 45ACP is very forgiving because of its' low pressure. It's also very accurate especially with lead bullets. In my opinion/experience lead seems to out-shoot jacketed bullets in every caliber I've tried it in. I have no idea why, plus you can shoot 2-3 times as much for the same $$$. I use Missouri Bullet Co. 200gr SWC's with a BHN of about 10 or so, not the really hard ones they sell. Unless you are loading them at the nuclear power level the softer ones will work better. The hard ones can't expand to fill and seal the bore with a light to mid level charge and can really lead the barrel badly by hot gasses pushing past and getting in front of the bullet melting lead as it goes. Seating depth also plays a big part in accuracy. You'll need to try different depths. Mine is at 1.265 for the MBC 200gr SWC's. I hope some of this info can help you reach your goal. Quoted:
That's something I'm trying to wrap my head around so maybe you could explain a bit further. The bottom carbide ring of the Lee FCD travels OUTSIDE the case diameter. The bullet (of any kind) fits INSIDE the case. So how exactly does the bottom sizing ring swage the bullet itself when, if the bottom sizing ring were to actually contact the bullet enough to swage it, it would hang up and just crush the top of the case? It seems to me that if a bullet is swaged smaller in the Lee FCD, then that would have come as a result of over crimping (at the case mouth by the top crimping ring) and not by the bottom sizing ring of the FCD die. I'm just not getting that. In fact, Lee themselves states that the bottom sizing ring on their FCD will NOT always contact the case at all. It is only there to true up those few cases that have become malformed enough that they would be difficult to feed without the help of the FCD die. Where am I going wrong with all this? Quoted:
Quoted:
Crimp Bullet with a Taper crimp die NOT a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die. Set crimp to be in the neighborhood of plus or minus 0.001" off of .470 at the case mouth. Each brand of brass will have varying neck wall thickness. Over crimping will potentially strip plating off of plated bullets. The Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die actually resizes the bullet, and potentially down sizing the nominal diameter of cast lead bullets so much so that they potentate leading of the barrel. Shoot bullets! Punch Holes in Target! That's something I'm trying to wrap my head around so maybe you could explain a bit further. The bottom carbide ring of the Lee FCD travels OUTSIDE the case diameter. The bullet (of any kind) fits INSIDE the case. So how exactly does the bottom sizing ring swage the bullet itself when, if the bottom sizing ring were to actually contact the bullet enough to swage it, it would hang up and just crush the top of the case? It seems to me that if a bullet is swaged smaller in the Lee FCD, then that would have come as a result of over crimping (at the case mouth by the top crimping ring) and not by the bottom sizing ring of the FCD die. I'm just not getting that. In fact, Lee themselves states that the bottom sizing ring on their FCD will NOT always contact the case at all. It is only there to true up those few cases that have become malformed enough that they would be difficult to feed without the help of the FCD die. Where am I going wrong with all this? |
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I been loading 45acp since 1988.. I use RCBS die set, lead, WST, currently. Shot USPSA 88-90 with 45 comp gun, single stack, and Accurate #5, took too much to load 45, bottle not go very far.
Size with RCBS, flare with the expander, seat a bullet, then close the case mouth to remove flare. Drop test in barrel (removed from slide) and have a nice day Back then I cast the RCBS 230 RN and the RCBS 201-SWC, both from straight wheel weight, same for the 9mm 124 RN-GC.. the TC at far right is a range find 
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By the looks of your first post you were on Dardas Bullets web site.
I understand his theory behind using the M die and I do have one, but the only benefit I have noticed is that the bullet sits in the case straighter on my 550 when seating. I shot MBC bullets for many years but have switched to Dardas because they seem more consistant and I get less leading In my opinion you are over thinking this, I shoot Dardas 185gr SWC's with either 3.9 grains of Clays or Bullseye seated with the shoulder about a fingernails thickness above the case mouth and crimped to .469-.470, this load has no problem holding the 10 ring at 50 yrds. Koz |
| A crimp die that's set too tight will compress the entire case, even with the bullet in it, in the area where the crimp is applied. It's in that way that an incorrectly adjusted crimp die will swage a bullet. The crimp die won't ever touch the bullet, but the inside walls of the case will. The crimp die squeezes the case, which in turn squeezes the bullet. I confirmed this once by overadjusting a lead bullet, seating it, crimping it, and then removing it with a kinetic bullet puller. There was a circular compressed groove all the way around the bullet at the case mouth, tapering off toward the base of the bullet. I changed the way that I adjusted crimp dies after that. |
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Quoted:
A crimp die that's set too tight will compress the entire case, even with the bullet in it, in the area where the crimp is applied. It's in that way that an incorrectly adjusted crimp die will swage a bullet. The crimp die won't ever touch the bullet, but the inside walls of the case will. The crimp die squeezes the case, which in turn squeezes the bullet. I confirmed this once by overadjusting a lead bullet, seating it, crimping it, and then removing it with a kinetic bullet puller. There was a circular compressed groove all the way around the bullet at the case mouth, tapering off toward the base of the bullet. I changed the way that I adjusted crimp dies after that. Right. I noticed that on plated bullets already, so as directly recommended by the people who sell plated bullets (thin plate as opposed to FMJ), I carefully adjust my crimp die to crimp to a very specific crimp as measured by the diameter at the mouth after crimping. I keep crimping to a minimum on plated bullets already, so I already pay attention to that issue all the time. With these BHN 12-18 H&G #68's that I'll be using to start with, I will most certainly crimp only enough to eliminate the bell and insure reliable feeding. I am going for a narrow FPS load range of a narrow band around 775 to 850, so I really shouldn't have to go for much "grab" at the crimp stage at all because I don't believe that bullet set-back on recoil will be a problem, and though some have made it a point to emphasize that I NOT roll crimp, I already knew to taper crimp. I always taper crimp my 9mm and 45acp anyway no matter what the bullet used, and I already knew that these "precision" bullets that I'm using should not be rolled crimped either. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not a newbie to reloading; I'm just a newbie to loading for precision ammo with soft lead in 45acp, and I intuitively thought that there might be some differences doing so even before I started doing some DD research on the subject. I have to say that I was surprised to see so much conflicting information, some even (seemingly) to the point of sounding like ju-ju magic, and then some suggesting that there is no difference whatsoever between loading RNFMJ and LSWC, but there certainly seems to be at least "some" differences to pay attention to which is why I started this thread with the questions I did. A lot of the information in this thread has been great for someone like me who has loading experience but is just getting started with (precision) lead loading. Lead does seem to be a sort of different animal, so I appreciate the input from you guys who have been there and done that. Due to this being a hobby, it will probably be a few weeks before I shoot my first lead ammo (from my Colt Series 70 National Match Gold Cup), but once I see some serious groups, I will make it a point to come back and post some results and some comments about some of the recommendations that were given in this great thread. Just for a quick reference in case anyone else is watching, my first loads are going to be using H&G #68 (200gr) bullets, probably from Missouri (I like that you can choose your BHN). I intend to start with their part number "Bullseye #1 with a BHN of 12 (a bit on the soft side), specifically because I'm loading for accuracy at a lower charge in order to get as close to 775 FPS as possible. I'm hoping the standard spring my o5870A1 came with will operate reliably with those loads, but the pistol comes with a lighter spare spring in case I have to switch it out. I'm going to start using HP-38 since it has been noted by many as being a "reasonably" good powder for the purpose, but I have to admit I'm using it more because I have an 8# bottle I just cracked open so I've got a supply that should last a while. HP-38/Win231 is hard to come by lately, so I may go to another powder when I run out. Que sera sera on that one. I don't know exactly what load I'll use, but I'll certainly start with some .1gr bracketing in the 5.0gr to 5.5gr area and stay with whatever groups best. That's all I got for the moment. Thanks guys. |
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Sounds like the OP is on track
The HP-38 is a fine target load powder for 45 acp. Something I have discovered over the years-If your barrel has any copper fouling in it from shooting jacketed or plated bullets (if you shoot them it will be there) it will cause the lead bullet to drag and somewhat shred itself. Not a huge problem but a mess to clean. Carefully clean the barrel with a strong stinky copper solvent like Sweets or Butches bore scrub . The clean steel barrel will allow the lead to slide and any slight lead or powder soot can be quickly brushed out with a dry brush. Cleaning copper fouling needs solvent , cleaning lead needs scraping . if you get both copper and lead in the bore you have lots of work |
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One comment on choosing HP-38 as your powder of choice, in my experience it is quite temperature-sensitive. I worked up a load in my 1911 using HP-38 that shot like butter at 70 degrees Fahrenheit but when I pulled that ammo out when the temperatures dropped to below 40 degrees or so the ammo just didn't have the power to cycle the slide fully. If I let the ammo warm up inside for a bit the problems went away
Now, keep in mind that the load was just hot enough to reliably cycle the slide the start with. It was designed to punch holes in paper for long sessions as comfortably as possible. If you worked up a load that was much more on the warm side, I'm sure it would be fine in lower temperatures, but if you're anywhere near the minimum load with HP38 don't expect to cycle well in cold weather. |
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Now, keep in mind that the load was just hot enough to reliably cycle the slide the start with. It was designed to punch holes in paper for long sessions as comfortably as possible. If you worked up a load that was much more on the warm side, I'm sure it would be fine in lower temperatures, but if you're anywhere near the minimum load with HP38 don't expect to cycle well in cold weather. I've come across references to "some" variations in different temperatures, but I am going to pick up an assortment of springs to handle any range of reliability for these light target loads anyway because my intent is to make the pistol work with the load specifically for accuracy, rather than to make the load work with the pistol which is the usual way to do it.. I do know the frustration of trying to load a lighter load for range use. I was going for just that in 9mm and ended up having to pull a BUNCH of ammo because it would only cycle in one of my (test) pistols which was a 6906 in great condition but with it's original spring that I KNEW was a bit weak. I couldn't get it to work in ANY of the other pistols I tried it with (Colt Defender 9mm, CM9, and EMP 9mm). |
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Why buy/use an extra die when the belling die that comes in the die set does a fine job of flaring the case? Quoted:
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Forget belling the mouth. Lyman M die for the win Why buy/use an extra die when the belling die that comes in the die set does a fine job of flaring the case? If you're using lead or plated bullets it allows the bullet to sit inside the case instead of being wobbly and sitting on top. IMO its increases production rate a bit because your not fiddling with the bullet as much. I don't use the M die, I ended up buying a Mr Bullet feeder powder funnel. Same concept as the m die die. this isn't my pic but gives you an idea of how the M die operates. There really isn't much belling of the case its expanded just enough for the bullet to slip in. 
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Quoted:
If you're using lead or plated bullets it allows the bullet to sit inside the case instead of being wobbly and sitting on top. IMO its increases production rate a bit because your not fiddling with the bullet as much. I don't use the M die, I ended up buying a Mr Bullet feeder powder funnel. Same concept as the m die die. this isn't my pic but gives you an idea of how the M die operates. There really isn't much belling of the case its expanded just enough for the bullet to slip in. http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr47/WVULTRA/Bayou%20Bullets/Bayou135_zps2294c7e0.png Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Forget belling the mouth. Lyman M die for the win Why buy/use an extra die when the belling die that comes in the die set does a fine job of flaring the case? If you're using lead or plated bullets it allows the bullet to sit inside the case instead of being wobbly and sitting on top. IMO its increases production rate a bit because your not fiddling with the bullet as much. I don't use the M die, I ended up buying a Mr Bullet feeder powder funnel. Same concept as the m die die. this isn't my pic but gives you an idea of how the M die operates. There really isn't much belling of the case its expanded just enough for the bullet to slip in. http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr47/WVULTRA/Bayou%20Bullets/Bayou135_zps2294c7e0.png This. It allows the bullet to sit square on the case, getting seated straight. You'll get no bulge from a bullet seated a little crooked. |
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Quoted: This. It allows the bullet to sit square on the case, getting seated straight. You'll get no bulge from a bullet seated a little crooked. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Forget belling the mouth. Lyman M die for the win Why buy/use an extra die when the belling die that comes in the die set does a fine job of flaring the case? If you're using lead or plated bullets it allows the bullet to sit inside the case instead of being wobbly and sitting on top. IMO its increases production rate a bit because your not fiddling with the bullet as much. I don't use the M die, I ended up buying a Mr Bullet feeder powder funnel. Same concept as the m die die. this isn't my pic but gives you an idea of how the M die operates. There really isn't much belling of the case its expanded just enough for the bullet to slip in. http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr47/WVULTRA/Bayou%20Bullets/Bayou135_zps2294c7e0.png This. It allows the bullet to sit square on the case, getting seated straight. You'll get no bulge from a bullet seated a little crooked. Seems like it would effect the neck tension.? |
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I don't think it effects neck tension.
In the pic the case on the far right shows a ring less than 1/8'' down from the mouth on the inside. I can see that part is expanded, so I assume that 1/8'' is the only place effected by the die. Still, why buy another die when the die in the kit does essentially the same thing just in a different way. Also, I would think expanding that much of the mouth area would over-work too much of the brass leading to cracks sooner than normal flaring would. |
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