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Posted: 10/13/2010 5:00:42 PM EDT
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Hi all,
Just picked up a SA Garand with a Fulton Armory barrel. It is having a bit of a short cycle problem. First clip or two was fine than once or twice per clip it would short cycle / stroke ejecting the spent case but not picking up a new round. The ammo is 1974 Danish surplus M1 specific ammo that came with enblocs. I picked up it up a few years back. As a test I ran 20 rounds of PMC 150gr FMJ as well with zero malfunctions. I know modern ammo is frowned up in Garand, but needed to test to see if ammo was the issue. Did some searching here and there and found several good posts. Based on those suggestions I have done the following: Before taking to the range I greased the snot out of it with Wilson grease. If anyone has a better suggestion for grease, I would like to hear about it. Ordered and installed a new GI spec op rod spring from Fulton. Compared to the used spring in the gun it is about 3/4 of an inch longer. Several posts here and on other forums mention a new spring as fixing the problem. I have not had a chance to take it to the range after installing the new spring. It passes the 45 degree angle tests with the spring out and slides back and forth with no binding. The gas port hole is clear and the gas lock screw is on tight enough I needed a 1/4" ratchet to remove it. The gas lock was on so tight I had to order Fulton wrench to get it off so I would not scar it up with a regular wrench. There is vertical blast visible on the front of the piston. Inside of the gas cylinder looks smooth with no buildup. One item of concern there is a little soot on the op rod. Not a lot and none visible in the stock. Should there be any at all on the op rod for the last 5 inches or so behind the piston? I am hoping the spring solves the problem, but in case it does not; does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks! |
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Tip of the gas piston should be round, sharp on the edges, smooth on the face. Measuring .525 minimum in diameter. If it is less than .525, there is gas leak.
The gas cylinder may also be out of spec, but is harder to check without the proper gauge. The gas cylinder should be positioned so that the square cut-out is centered over the gas port hole in the barrel. Position the gas cylinder perfectly, looking through the front, then add the gas cylinder lock and then the gas plug. Check your gas plug to see if it is leaking. Firmly hold the edges of the plug, press the center of the plug inward with a punch. You will see the shiny disk on the rear come away from the plug. It can get carbon build up under this area and allow a leak. Soak it in cleaning solvent, press the plug open/closed a bunch of times to get the solvent into the hard to reach areas. Soot build up along the length of the op-rod is normal from what you are describing. The excess gas vents along that area. The only op-rod spring I run in my M1 Garands are those offered by Orion7. They are the cat's behind :) All this may just be ammo related. Run some M2 ball through your rifle, its available from the CMP. If you are not a CMP customer yet, this is just the right time to fill out the paperwork and get on board. |
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Hi,
Piston measures right at .525 and has good sharp edges. I do not have an inside diameter gauge for the cylinder. Didn't know the gas plug had a moving part in it. Always thought they were solid. There is a little carbon on the inside of the disk. I will try cleaning it. Talked to a couple of Garand owners who report a little carbon on the op rod being normal. Thanks for the tip on Orion7. I will give it another test this weekend with the new spring and cleaning of the gas plug. Thanks for the help. |
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Danish M2Ball is very good accurate ammo
Gas Port does not have to be perfectly aligned. Take a paperclip , bend it and run it inside the gas cylinder into the port hole and be able to slightly move the paperclip you are fine If everything is in spec do the tilt test as already suggested |
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Something else you should buy from Fulton Armory is their M1 book: The M1 Garand Complete Assembly Guide, (or something like that).
+1 on getting on board with CMP - they're shipping some nice looking Service Grades now. I use the Orion7 stainless steel op rod springs in every M1 Garand that I shoot. You should check the Gas Cylinder Lock Screw before shooting to ensure that it is tight. |
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Biggest drawback to the J.C. Garand designs is the positioning of the operating spring directly under the barrel where it is affected by heat.
When the guns begin to malfunction, replacing the spring is the first line of diagnostics. +1 on the Orion 7 Stainless steel operating rod springs, the longest lasting and best functioning springs I have ever used in a Garand. I use Chrome Silicone operating rod springs from I.S.M.I. in my M1A type rifles, excellent and long wearing option for these rifles. After trying many types of wonder greases over the years, I went back to plain old Lubriplate and Plastilube greases. I got a big can of Lubriplate from Brownells and a big can of surplus Plastilube at a gun show. I have enough of these greases to last the rest of my life now and they work just super. 
You can also get plastic syringes from Brownells and they work great for applying just enough grease where it is needed. HTH |
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Quoted:
Biggest drawback to the J.C. Garand designs is the positioning of the operating spring directly under the barrel where it is affected by heat. When the guns begin to malfunction, replacing the spring is the first line of diagnostics. +1 on the Orion 7 Stainless steel operating rod springs, the longest lasting and best functioning springs I have ever used in a Garand. I use Chrome Silicone operating rod springs from I.S.M.I. in my M1A type rifles, excellent and long wearing option for these rifles. HTH I've got a s/s spring from Orion 7 for my M1. Milo; do you have a source for s/s op springs for a M14? |
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Take a look here for my post regarding troubleshooting the M1 Garand.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=326558&page=1 
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Very odd, because if I had a short-stroking problem the LAST thing I'd want to do is put a stronger Op Rod / recoil spring in. Doing so ought to make it even tougher for teh bolt to cycle fully rearward, given whatever other condition was causing the fault in the first place, due to the stronger resistance of the spring.
The only way I can see that solving your problem was if it wasn't short-stroking at all, but was actually fully cycling faster than the weak op rod spring could help propel the magazine rounds upward, into the path of the bolt, given the design of the M-1 action. |
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Quoted:
Very odd, because if I had a short-stroking problem the LAST thing I'd want to do is put a stronger Op Rod / recoil spring in. Doing so ought to make it even tougher for teh bolt to cycle fully rearward, given whatever other condition was causing the fault in the first place, due to the stronger resistance of the spring. The only way I can see that solving your problem was if it wasn't short-stroking at all, but was actually fully cycling faster than the weak op rod spring could help propel the magazine rounds upward, into the path of the bolt, given the design of the M-1 action. His earlier post stated that he was going to clean the gas plug. Now that its clean, no more gas leakage from the gas plug. Shortstroke gone and the new spring probably helped out too.
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I do not know if the spring in it when I got it was a weak original or one of the "extra power" ones. Either way I replaced it with a GI spec one. The new one is about 3/4" longer than the used one. I can how a weak one would not allow the rounds to elevate into position for the bolt to pick up the next round. I will probably order one of the Orion7 springs as they come highly recommended and keep the other as a spare.
Did not get a chance to clean the plug, but will do so anyway. All in all, I love the Garand. It really is a fun gun to shoot. |
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Quoted:
Hi all, Just picked up a SA Garand with a Fulton Armory barrel. It is having a bit of a short cycle problem. First clip or two was fine than once or twice per clip it would short cycle / stroke ejecting the spent case but not picking up a new round. The ammo is 1974 Danish surplus M1 specific ammo that came with enblocs. I picked up it up a few years back. As a test I ran 20 rounds of PMC 150gr FMJ as well with zero malfunctions. I know modern ammo is frowned up in Garand, but needed to test to see if ammo was the issue. Did some searching here and there and found several good posts. Based on those suggestions I have done the following: Before taking to the range I greased the snot out of it with Wilson grease. If anyone has a better suggestion for grease, I would like to hear about it. Ordered and installed a new GI spec op rod spring from Fulton. Compared to the used spring in the gun it is about 3/4 of an inch longer. Several posts here and on other forums mention a new spring as fixing the problem. I have not had a chance to take it to the range after installing the new spring. I have read a new spring often solves a lot of Grand problems . Have not had to replace one , myself . It passes the 45 degree angle tests with the spring out and slides back and forth with no binding. The gas port hole is clear and the gas lock screw is on tight enough I needed a 1/4" ratchet to remove it. The gas lock was on so tight I had to order Fulton wrench to get it off so I would not scar it up with a regular wrench. The latter gas block screws ( gas plugs ) were designed so they could be used with a gernade launching attachment . The Gas plug has a valve that is pushed open by the attachment , venting some gas . Check this spring loaded valve & see if it is leaking gas ( fouling preventing it from closing 100% ) . There is vertical blast visible on the front of the piston. Inside of the gas cylinder looks smooth with no buildup. One item of concern there is a little soot on the op rod. Not a lot and none visible in the stock. Should there be any at all on the op rod for the last 5 inches or so behind the piston? They always leak some gas ( blow by ) at the back of the gas cylinder , where the op rod goes in . I am hoping the spring solves the problem, but in case it does not; does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks! Hope the spring fixed it . :-) God bless Wyr |
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Quoted:
Very odd, because if I had a short-stroking problem the LAST thing I'd want to do is put a stronger Op Rod / recoil spring in. Doing so ought to make it even tougher for teh bolt to cycle fully rearward, given whatever other condition was causing the fault in the first place, due to the stronger resistance of the spring. The only way I can see that solving your problem was if it wasn't short-stroking at all, but was actually fully cycling faster than the weak op rod spring could help propel the magazine rounds upward, into the path of the bolt, given the design of the M-1 action. I have often wondered that too , but never came up with an explanation . You may be correct ? Who knows ? But the two most common fixes I have read about are op rod springs and clip lock springs . And maybe grease ? I just got through reading about the weapons used during the battle and retreat from the Chosen Reservoir . It got down to -40 degrees F . Most of the weapons had to be run dry , to keep the oil / grease from thickening to the point of causing malfunctions . American Rifleman magazine . I have also read of running weapons dry in sandy / dusty conditions ? God bless Wyr |
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Quoted:
I do not know if the spring in it when I got it was a weak original or one of the "extra power" ones. Either way I replaced it with a GI spec one. The new one is about 3/4" longer than the used one. I can how a weak one would not allow the rounds to elevate into position for the bolt to pick up the next round. I will probably order one of the Orion7 springs as they come highly recommended and keep the other as a spare. Did not get a chance to clean the plug, but will do so anyway. All in all, I love the Garand. It really is a fun gun to shoot. Pretty much ( almost ) everything is powered by that spring . The little parts ( under the wood ) that you do not normally see , do a sophisticated interaction with each other . Powered by that spring . Part of this includes pushing the next round up ( as some one else has described ) . I have read to never use " extra power " springs . Only USGI strength springs . Everything is designed / calibrated for it . God bless Wyr |
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Quoted:
Very odd, because if I had a short-stroking problem the LAST thing I'd want to do is put a stronger Op Rod / recoil spring in. Look at it this way: You aren't putting in a "Stronger" op-rod spring, you are putting in a "in spec" op-rod spring. The old GI op-rod springs are over 50 years old and many are just worn so badly out of spec that a new spring will fix the problem. The new thing is only "stronger" in that it is in-spec and not "understrength" due to being worn out. I kind of understand your logic as to why you think the problem would get worse if there is more spring force due to installing a spring that is stronger than the worn out, out of spec, original spring. But, the problem is likely caused by the original spring being out of spec, so installing a in-spec spring, even though it is technically "stronger" than the old spring, very often solves the problem. In other words, do what works, and don't overthink it. Now, I'm one of the people who think "extra strength" op rod springs should be avoided. If a in-spec, full-power spring doesn't fix the problem, than look to another solution. |
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Extra strong springs change the timing of how things work together. It is a band-aid fix to mask other troubles. They also accelerate wear because the parts are slammed harder than required.
The spring offered by Orion 7 is made to replace the USGI spring, and is constructed of better than original materials. From their webpage: "M1 Rifle Operating Rod Springs We went back to the original Springfield Armory drawings to duplicate the original spring with one exception. Our new springs are manufactured from the highest quality 17-7 STAINLESS STEEL wire available in the industry. Superior over the standard carbon wire springs made during the war years. We now can offer what we believe is the finest main spring ever made for the M1 Rifle! These springs are manufactured exclusively for Orion 7 Enterprises Inc. right here in the USA on state of the art machinery and using the finest quality wire on the market. Samples were tested and the computer projected continuous cycle readings recorded were off the scale! We are so confident that you will agree with us that these are the best M1 rifle main springs made, we will offer you a free replacement guarantee* if our spring ever rusts, fails or wears out. No questions asked! 8.00 each 2/15.00." These springs have worked extremely well for me. Several rifles have had minor operational issues that were solved by using the Orion 7 spring. I run them in all my M1 Garands (I seem to have over 15 rifles for some reason.), simply throwing out the original op-rod spring that came as original equipment. The op-rod spring not only runs the bolt back and forth, it is responsible for pushing the follower upwards to feed ammunition into the chamber. The only other spring to watch is the clip latch spring because it holds the clip in place until the action is empty of rounds. Orion 7 also offers a spring kit to replace the major springs in your rifle. Its cheap insurance to keep these fine rifles running right. If you really want to go off into the deep end of the Garand rifle pool of knowledge, hit the link to the Culver's Shooting Page. There are many long time Garand collectors and industry icons who frequently contribute to the pages there. Its kind spooky to have people like Scott Duff, Gus Fisher or Dick Culver, answering posts/questions 
http://www.jouster.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?3-M1-Garand-M14-M1A |
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