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Posted: 3/3/2017 5:07:16 PM EDT
[#1]
I set the toggle to keep this thread out of the archives.
So set your bookmarks, or look at the back pages to find this thread in the future when the thread slips off the front page. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 5:14:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3:
I set the toggle to keep this thread out of the archives. So set your bookmarks, or look at the back pages to find this thread in the future when the thread slips off the front page. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 6:38:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jaqufrost:
Thanks dryflash! No bookmark needed for OP, just everyone else. 
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IL, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2017 2:55:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stump70:
Finally made it to the range. I know it doesn't help you guys, but the WC747 hit 3kfps through a 16" barrel with 25.5 grs. of powder. I did however try some 8208 XBR which will be more helpful. Noticing that XBR gets real tight on the charge weights with heavier bullets, I started at a conservative 23 grains and 23.5. PMC 1x brass trimmed to 1.750. CCI #41 primer. Bullet seated to 2.245. 23 grains: 2712 2662 2694 2665 2675 23.5 grains: 2751 2711 2772 2765 2718 No signs on the brass that indicates anything. Thought I felt/heard a slight crunch on the 23.5, so going up from that will more than likely be a compressed load. Accuracy was not bad, but it was from a 16" CL with Acog. Not the ideal paper puncher. Do believe there is a little more leeway for the XBR, but not much, so watch out. I had a feeling the SMP842 was close to W748. How accurate was the W748? Although 3K is hot, a step down on the burn rate would be Varget. |
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Posted: 3/4/2017 6:57:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CommyGun:
I had a feeling the SMP842 was close to W748. How accurate was the W748? Although 3K is hot, a step down on the burn rate would be Varget. W747 is not a misprint. W748 would certainly work though. Best I got was around 2 MOA with my powder and the XBR. |
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Posted: 3/9/2017 5:57:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: billyhill]
[#6]
Curious if any more work has been done. Got some bullets for the wife to work with (I married well) and I starting to try and figure out where to start. TAC, XBR, 2230, H4895 are at the top of the list for powders at first glance +/- CFE and AR Comp.
I have some Wolf Gold factory primed brass with crimp I may use. Any analogs to model loads on? 62 gr Barnes? 65 gr Game king? 69? I have Quickload on the way, it will be interesting to see what guidance it will provide in this process |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 4:59:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Hopefully you have better luck with Tac than I did, billyhill.
I have some loaded up with RE-15, but it's been too windy this past week to try them out and now winter is coming back this week. I'll post the results as soon as I can get down to the range with them. |
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Posted: 3/10/2017 6:54:57 PM EDT
[#8]
TAC has a habit of only getting real good close to max. Was Accuracy your primary problem or were velocities coming up short as well? I am starting with pretty low expectations accuracy wise, if it will shoot 3" at 100 I will be happy.
Temp stability is the reasons I hoped XBR8208 would work, and one of the reasons I am thinking about AR COMP. AR COMP It is suppose to have good temp stability and a burn rate close to Varget. |
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Posted: 3/11/2017 7:39:29 AM EDT
[#9]
Accuracy was the biggest problem I had with Tac.
I was able to get close to factory FPS with the loads I tried on page one, but the patterning (certainly not grouping) would make 3moa look damn good. |
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Posted: 3/19/2017 5:16:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Stump70]
[#10]
Tried 24 grains of 8208. Low 2800fps. Group size over 2 inches.
It is a compressed load. I don't think XBR is the powder for this bullet. ETA: Forgot to mention there were ejector swipes, but no flattened primers. |
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Posted: 3/19/2017 8:16:01 PM EDT
[#11]
I got a feeling that CFE and AR-Comp will be giving best velocities.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/20/2017 8:44:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Im going to try VV n530 and n135, It should work.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:11:19 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stump70:
Tried 24 grains of 8208. Low 2800fps. Group size over 2 inches. It is a compressed load. I don't think XBR is the powder for this bullet. ETA: Forgot to mention there were ejector swipes, but no flattened primers. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/24/2017 7:32:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Happy2shoot]
[#14]
Does anyone know if the copper in the bullet is pure or a harder alloy? I was thinking if it was a soft copper use Barnes data and Fed Bear Claw data, or if it was a hard alloy use Hornady GMX data. If there even is a difference in load data.
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Posted: 4/19/2017 9:01:37 AM EDT
[#15]
Bump.
With us into spring and the weather good for load development has anyone had any updates to share? |
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Posted: 4/19/2017 9:41:18 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rocco1695:
Bump. With us into spring and the weather good for load development has anyone had any updates to share? 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/19/2017 1:42:46 PM EDT
[#17]
I'm in on this thread. My brother brought me some of these to load for him.
Brass will be Wolf Gold factory primed, weight sorted and trimmed to 1.750. Powders I have are TAC, CFE223, SMP842, Varget, 8208. I use Lee dies and the LEE Factory crimp die. Test rifle has a 16" Larue skinny barrel. Brother's gun is a 14.5" Larue but he's an Oakie now so I don't know if I can get my hands on that one for the test. I will chrono the loads and shoot at 75 yards. Proof load will be factory ammo I need to see what I have. Question: why bother with 2.250 OAL? I'm loading to 2.260. These bullets are long, comparable to the 77gr SMK. If anyone has a load in particular for me to try let me know. I think the CFE vs CMP842 test will be interesting. I was told when I bought the 842 that they are the same powder but I realize that has been contested. It's storming here this weekend so I have time to load. Won't shoot until next weekend. |
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Posted: 5/19/2017 1:46:17 PM EDT
[#18]
I plan to load to 2.260. I don't see any reason to go shorter.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2017 6:46:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: deezbill]
[#19]
I don't know how this can help us, but I did a little comparison of lengths with some common bullets we see vs the 62gr M855A1.
Below is a side-by-side picture of a 77gr TMK, 77gr SMK, 62gr M855A1, and 69gr TMK, respectively. I did not add the 69gr SMK for obvious reasons of it being much shorter. I measured each one:
77gr SMK - .9985” 62gr M855A1 - .9975” 69gr TMK - .9820” ***After taking my picture, I measured several 62gr red tip Tracers - most were around 1.0980”. ***Yes, I need to increase my sample size for a better average, but it's a start. 
My load right now with those tracers is 23.5gr of H335, likewise 25.5gr of H335 for my 60gr V-Max. My tracer load is not for accuracy, but my 60gr V-Max is. Also, Sierra's accuracy load for 63gr SMP is 25.2gr of H335 at a velocity of 2900. Their max load is 25.6gr of H335 with a velocity of 2950. Both Sierra's SMP and my V-Max have flat bases. The M855A1 has a boattail. I like H335, but I do have other powders like CFE223 and Varget for examples. Someone else more knowledgeable take it from here... |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/10/2017 10:32:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: deezbill]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CommyGun:
Wound channel on YouTube used a chronograph with a 16 inch barrel and got a velocity of 2982 from factory m885a1. Another video from jwg223 showed a dissected charge weight of 25.7 of smp-42 (or whatever the new powder is called). Im wondering what primers were used by Kleinman, Nato primers are hotter. What OAL was also used? I know things aren't proportional between powders, but given a faster rate possibly, 25.7gr seems more like a typical hot military/NATO load. In comparison, I've seen published data using 26.1gr of WC-844 for 62gr M855 and 27gr of 748 for 62gr M855. I know CFE223 is being tested by lots of us and I like it, but I'm figuring it's not exactly going to repeat the results we've all probably read about in military testing (i.e. velocity, accuracy). I read where one guy swore it was the same as CFE223, so he tested a bunch of different loads with CFE223. He concluded that it wasn't close to SMP-842 stating CFE223 is not near as hot. Given this info along with data I mentioned in my post above, I think powders like H335 may need to get a look. Just my 2 cents... |
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Posted: 6/17/2017 12:43:52 PM EDT
[#21]
I have M855A1 projectiles showing up next week and plan to start working up loads. From reading this thread I've noticed the velocity claims of the factory haven't been met yet with handloads without showing pressure signs.
Has anyone shot the factory ammo to see if it shows pressure signs? |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 1:28:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RCC1]
[#22]
I went out and did some testing this morning.
All brass was Lake City and trimmed to correct length, I did not crimp the ammo. I also used CCI 400 primers. I used the following- CFE 223- 26.5gr, 27gr, and 27.5gr XBR 8208- 24gr, 24.5gr, and 25gr This is the rifle I used- 16" barrel with Ops Inc suppressor. 
Target stand at 100 yards- 
My velocities were the following- CFE 223 26.5gr- 2892 average 27gr- 2945 average 27.5gr- 2982 average IMHO the groups suck. They seem to tighten up with speed so I might push them faster. I am getting some flattened primers but no noticeable ejector swipes. The CFE groups- 
Then the XBR 8208- 24gr- chrono had an issue and only read 1 shot, it was 2771 24.5gr- 2810 average 25gr- 2846 average The XBR groups- 
Ignore the flyer, I got buzzed by a bee. 
The XBR 8208 showed the best accuracy for me. I am going to try pushing the CFE load alittle faster and see what happens. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 1:59:42 PM EDT
[#23]
Nice work! What gas length is your rifle?
I've been reading that 8208 seems to be the powder for these. I only have a 115 or so projectiles, so I wanna keep testing as limited as possible. I bought some off someone here in the forum, but for the life of me I cannot remember who it was. Cleaned out my PM box one day, and deleted it.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 2:02:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ChevelleDave:
Nice work! What gas length is your rifle? I've been reading that 8208 seems to be the powder for these. I only have a 115 or so projectiles, so I wanna keep testing as limited as possible. I bought some off someone here in the forum, but for the life of me I cannot remember who it was. Cleaned out my PM box one day, and deleted it. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/25/2017 2:46:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Perhaps the OP should add to his first post a general description of what, exactly, M855 is and why anyone would care to read further into the thread.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/25/2017 3:07:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Nice info and data!
Thanks! |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 4:15:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RCC1]
[#27]
I'm going to try some more XBR 8208 loads and plan to order some H335 this week. As good as CFE is with my heavier loads I don't think it's the right powder for M855A1 projectiles.
Update @jaqufrost |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 4:58:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer:
Perhaps the OP should add to his first post a general description of what, exactly, M855 is and why anyone would care to read further into the thread. |
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Posted: 6/25/2017 5:18:35 PM EDT
[#29]
I'll try and update the OP a bit tomorrow.
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Posted: 6/25/2017 5:21:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ChevelleDave:
Nice work! What gas length is your rifle? I've been reading that 8208 seems to be the powder for these. I only have a 115 or so projectiles, so I wanna keep testing as limited as possible. I bought some off someone here in the forum, but for the life of me I cannot remember who it was. Cleaned out my PM box one day, and deleted it. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/25/2017 7:36:59 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter:
I concur, especially since the round in question is M855A1. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
Perhaps the OP should add to his first post a general description of what, exactly, M855 is and why anyone would care to read further into the thread. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/25/2017 9:22:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RCC1:
I'm going to try some more XBR 8208 loads and plan to order some H335 this week. As good as CFE is with my heavier loads I don't think it's the right powder for M855A1 projectiles. Update @jaqufrost 
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IL, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2017 1:06:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Man you country boys sure got it made. Testing reloads on your backyard....life. I have to wait for free time and drive 2 hours away to find a 100 yard rifle range.
Yeh cfe223 has not shown positive results. I am wondering if anybody has already used H335. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/28/2017 2:47:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#34]
I went looking for the MIL SPEC on this cartridge but could not find it (MIL-DTL-32338A). What I did find said it was classified and to contract my Contracting Officer.
Does Dryflash qualify as Contracting Officer? 
No, probably not. Here's a link to the Wikipedia information on this round. - link to Wikipedia |
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Posted: 6/28/2017 4:42:16 AM EDT
[#35]
I can probably whip up some H-335 rounds, I' check into it tomorrow. Trying for a range trip Thursday or Friday.
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Posted: 6/28/2017 6:02:35 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ChevelleDave:
I can probably whip up some H-335 rounds, I' check into it tomorrow. Trying for a range trip Thursday or Friday. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2017 8:05:39 AM EDT
[#37]
I read a post somewhere that a guy had good results with 25gr of H335.
I have some loaded up, but am on vacation right now. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2017 10:13:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dryflash3]
[#38]
Im not really interested in this bullet, but I do have some data.
Per a release from May 2016, so Im not sure if this is accurate or not, but Id bet its pretty close. Powder - 28.1gr WC844 which is effectively H335 Primer - none listed, but likely a standard milspec primer like a 41 that has been crimped in Velocity - 3150 fps Pressure - 55000 psi My take away: Loading to the milspec fps isnt going to happen safely. I dont know about you guys but I have serious issues with putting 28.1gr of H335 behind a bullet that has a long bearing surface. As someone else pointed out, this is like loading behind a Barnes solid copper bullet. Accuracy from what Ive read in numerous places is nothing great, even when shot from accurate rifles. Use extreme caution as you work up to the listed max above. dryflash3 |
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USA
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Posted: 6/28/2017 12:01:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#39]
I was trying to find the lot acceptance requirements for velocity and accuracy (mean and standard deviation) for this ammo but could not get my hands on a spec. Wikipedia shows 3100 fps mean and 62,000 psi for the M855A1 round.
In the Wikipedia article I linked to (above), there is some discussion of them raising the allowable pressure from 55,000 psi up to 62,000 psi. The following is from that Wikipedia link. "... (the primer) uses a modified four-pronged primer anvil for more reliable powder ignition,[97] with a stab crimp rather than a circumferential crimp to better withstand the new load’s higher chamber pressure,[96] increased from 55,000 psi (379.2 MPa) to 62,000 psi (427.5 MPa).[61] During Army carbine testing, the round caused "accelerated bolt wear" from higher chamber pressure and increased bore temperatures. Special Operator testing saw cracks appear on locking lugs and bolts at cam pin holes on average at 6,000 rounds, but sometimes as few as 3,000 rounds during intense automatic firing. Firing several thousand rounds with such high chamber pressures can lead to degraded accuracy over time as parts wear out..." |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2017 12:25:59 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kaldor:
... Powder - 28.1gr WC844 which is effectively H335 ... My take away: ... I dont know about you guys but I have serious issues with putting 28.1gr of H335 behind a bullet that has a long bearing surface.  smoking hot!
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WI, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2017 12:46:25 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer:
I was trying to find the lot acceptance requirements for velocity and accuracy (mean and standard deviation) for this ammo but could not get my hands on a spec. Wikipedia shows 3100 fps mean and 62,000 psi for the M855A1 round. In the Wikipedia article I linked to (above), there is some discussion of them raising the allowable pressure from 55,000 psi up to 62,000 psi. The following is from that Wikipedia link. "... (the primer) uses a modified four-pronged primer anvil for more reliable powder ignition,[97] with a stab crimp rather than a circumferential crimp to better withstand the new load’s higher chamber pressure,[96] increased from 55,000 psi (379.2 MPa) to 62,000 psi (427.5 MPa).[61] During Army carbine testing, the round caused "accelerated bolt wear" from higher chamber pressure and increased bore temperatures. Special Operator testing saw cracks appear on locking lugs and bolts at cam pin holes on average at 6,000 rounds, but sometimes as few as 3,000 rounds during intense automatic firing. Firing several thousand rounds with such high chamber pressures can lead to degraded accuracy over time as parts wear out..." |
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USA
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Posted: 6/28/2017 1:28:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#42]
It is from Wikipedia not from the military product spec for procurements, so take it with a healthy heaping of skepticism.
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Posted: 6/28/2017 2:06:44 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ChevelleDave:
Powder weight video, 25.7gr SMP-42.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7Arw-J66qg
Chrono video, 2982f/ps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8IvDPuVuho
Super slow motion Ballistic gel video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX4ODh1g4eM |
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Posted: 6/28/2017 2:36:52 PM EDT
[#44]
You are welcome. I enjoy watching your channel, some good stuff there.
I can probably get some loaded up today with H-335, I've been planning a range trip for awhile now, and tomorrow may be it. I'm thinking some 1X fired LC, with a #41, seated to 2.250" OAL. 3 at 24.0gr, 3 at 24.5gr, 3 at 25.0, 3 at 25.5gr and 3 at 26.0gr and just watch for pressure signs and see what the chrono does on the way up. I got a new Odin Works muzzle device to mitigate the forward blast and see if that doesn't change the chrono readings from my two blasting loads, I have been getting some varying readings, but may have been muzzle gas skewing the readings. Also have a A2 birdcage in the box as well. Post up any idea's, I'll be loading these up later tonite, and I'll check back here before I do. |
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Posted: 6/28/2017 2:46:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cvtrpr]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RCC1:
I have M855A1 projectiles showing up next week and plan to start working up loads. From reading this thread I've noticed the velocity claims of the factory haven't been met yet with handloads without showing pressure signs. Has anyone shot the factory ammo to see if it shows pressure signs? ETA: Also, I chronographed a 2013 lot out of a 20" FN M16A2. Average MV was 3149. MV out of a 16" 6920 was 2975. ETA2: I was seeing 2MOA out of this ammo. I have seen a 3.994" group out of an M16A4, fired magazine prone, with irons, on a Combat EIC target. |
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Posted: 6/28/2017 5:48:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer:
I went looking for the MIL SPEC on this cartridge but could not find it (MIL-DTL-32338A). What I did find said it was classified and to contract my Contracting Officer. Does Dryflash qualify as Contracting Officer?
No, probably not. Here's a link to the Wikipedia information on this round. - link to Wikipedia What we do know it's supposed to have similar enough ballistics to not need sight alterations, that it should be more consistent and have higher accuracy, and it should be a bit faster (at 3100 fps). That should be enough, along with a bit of sanity in watching for indications of unsafe pressure levels, that someone with enough of these bullets on hand should be able to work up a decent load for them, even one that rivals the GI round. I wonder if a not-unobtainium-based bullet of similar weight and profile exists. Whether it's for defensive uses or not, this really seems like it's an advance in long range projectile design. |
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Posted: 6/28/2017 5:55:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cvtrpr]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter:
I'm finding reference to MIL-DTL-32338A as "distribution code D". "DISTRIBUTION D. Distribution authorized to Department of Defense and U.S. DoD contractors only (reason) (date of determination). Other request for this document shall be referred to (controlling DoD office)." (See DTIC's distribution statement document for details and the "whys and wherefores".) It boils down to "need to know," and as far as Uncle Sugar cares, we do not have that need. What we do know it's supposed to have similar enough ballistics to not need sight alterations, that it should be more consistent and have higher accuracy, and it should be a bit faster (at 3100 fps). That should be enough, along with a bit of sanity in watching for indications of unsafe pressure levels, that someone with enough of these bullets on hand should be able to work up a decent load for them, even one that rivals the GI round. I wonder if a not-unobtainium-based bullet of similar weight and profile exists. Whether it's for defensive uses or not, this really seems like it's an advance in long range projectile design. It is very consistent, even across lots that are '13 and newer, and is capable of 2MOA |
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USA
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Posted: 6/28/2017 7:16:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GHPorter:
hether it's for defensive uses or not, this really seems like it's an advance in long range projectile design. It also focusses on the lead-free aspects of the projectile. But, yes, distances in the Middle East are much longer than they were in Viet Nam. |
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Posted: 6/28/2017 8:50:14 PM EDT
[#49]
I should have some H335 in a few days. Hoping to solve the FPS puzzle soon.
I also plan to push XBR 8208 some more to see if I maintain velocity and keep accuracy. |
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Posted: 6/28/2017 10:08:34 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cvtrpr:
I shoot 855A1 with a TA01 ACOG, and the ballistics are significantly different. I have gone to a 265Y zero with the center of the reticle IOT minimize hold offs. At 300Y I use the 2-wire, 400 I use the 3-wire, and hold the 4-wire across the shoulders at 500y. It is very consistent, even across lots that are '13 and newer, and is capable of 2MOA |
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