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Posted: 8/24/2016 4:48:25 PM EDT
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Thinking about building one for my SBR MP5K clone.
Looks like theres some confusion on this when I talked about it in GD,and I would like to get some opinions on The way I understand it is SBR trumps AOW(In fact I asked this a few threads below). So theoretically if I build a firing briefcase for my stamped SBR everything should be good and groovy right? |
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Thinking about building one for my SBR MP5K clone. Looks like theres some confusion on this when I talked about it in GD,and I would like to get some opinions on The way I understand it is SBR trumps AOW(In fact I asked this a few threads below). So theoretically if I build a firing briefcase for my stamped SBR everything should be good and groovy right? Yes an SBR trumps an AOW, however, if the briefcase is able to fire your MP5K via a trigger in the briefcase's handle, then the briefcase itself becomes an AOW and needs it's own stamp. You can find factory MP5K briefcases on Gun Broker from time to time (around $2,000) and since it is a factory item there is a $5 transfer tax. If you make one on your own then you are the maker of an AOW (only if it can shoot the MP5) |
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MadDog is correct on this. I have an M11/9 operational briefcase it is ok because machinegun trumps all rules. I cannot however shoot a semi auto in it. AOW has the most variables of all the NFA registrations. If the weapon can be fired from a concealed device, the device becomes an AOW, i.e. the wallet that holds a pistol and can be fired, stingers (pen gun), and the like.
I don't claim to know all the NFA rules but this info was shared by an ATF field agent that was shooting my briefcase. |
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A briefcase is not a firearm. You can't register a non-firearm as an AOW. Quoted:
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...if the briefcase is able to fire your MP5K via a trigger in the briefcase's handle, then the briefcase itself becomes an AOW and needs it's own stamp. A briefcase is not a firearm. You can't register a non-firearm as an AOW. You may be correct, however a few years ago I was talking with BATFE's section chief and asked if the firing briefcase that I wanted to purchase for my MP5k SBR needed to be stamped on a Form1 or Form4 as an AOW. The answer was YES. |
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Each branch has multiple section chiefs. They're sort of like lieutenants. Was he in NFA Branch? Either he misunderstood you, or was simply incorrect. NFA is all about configurations and legal definitions. A semi-auto MP5K clone with no stock fitted into the briefcase can either be registered as a SBR or AOW. Making AOW's from guns previously equipped with stocks is not allowed. If you remove a stock from a registered SBR and put it into another configuration (to include what would otherwise be classified as AOW) then you have what is legally defined as "a weapon made from a rifle" which still falls under the SBR registration. Next to MG, SBR is the more versatile registration option. |
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MadDog is correct on this. I have an M11/9 operational briefcase it is ok because machinegun trumps all rules. I cannot however shoot a semi auto in it. AOW has the most variables of all the NFA registrations. If the weapon can be fired from a concealed device, the device becomes an AOW, i.e. the wallet that holds a pistol and can be fired, stingers (pen gun), and the like. I don't claim to know all the NFA rules but this info was shared by an ATF field agent that was shooting my briefcase. I own an NAA mini .22 with the wallet holster. The serial numbered revolver is the registered part of the combination, not the wallet holster. Absent the wallet, the revolver is a Title I firearm. Absent the revolver, the wallet holster is just a piece of leather with a couple of metal snaps. |
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If that were the case, a bullpup rifle conversion stock would have to be registered as an aow as well...it's just a form fitting case with a linkage to work the trigger. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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Some even say the case needs to be AOWd  If that were the case, a bullpup rifle conversion stock would have to be registered as an aow as well...it's just a form fitting case with a linkage to work the trigger. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile That's not really an apples to apples comparison, as the briefcase hides the fact that there is a gun inside, whereas the conversion stock does not. |
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That's not really an apples to apples comparison, as the briefcase hides the fact that there is a gun inside, whereas the conversion stock does not. Quoted:
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Some even say the case needs to be AOWd If that were the case, a bullpup rifle conversion stock would have to be registered as an aow as well...it's just a form fitting case with a linkage to work the trigger. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile That's not really an apples to apples comparison, as the briefcase hides the fact that there is a gun inside, whereas the conversion stock does not. Is there anything in federal law that says a concealing "device" is a firearm? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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According to Federal Law an AOW is as follows
Any other weapon - 27CFR §479.11 The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition If you start to dissect the verbiage you basically end up with a catch-all bucket for any firearm that doesn't meet the statutory language for another category. The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, <-- This portion basically means any firearm that can be concealed on the person which doesn't fall into another legally defined category (and which the regulatory agency in charge has determined that the definition of "concealable" to mean to a firearm less than 26" in overall length) a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell <---- This portion is specifically calling out smooth bore pistols as AOWs. weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading <----Combo Gun / Game Getting specific callout are AOWs. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore or rifled bores <--- This portion is now exempting pistols or revolvers from the "concealable" AOW firearm category. or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder <--- This portion exempts rifles and shotguns (including SBRs and SBSs) from the concealable AOW firearm category. and not capable of firing fixed ammunition <---Exempting non-fixed ammunition guns concealable AOW firearm category. This leaves an undefined category of firearms that are not Rifle, Shotguns, Pistols, Revolvers, or (machineguns or destructive devices as elsewhere defined in the NFA) and are not concealable on a person, so do not fall into the AOWs defintion. This category includes pistol gripped shotguns (Mossberg defender), semi-auto dual grip & stockless thompsons, belt fed/mounted weapons like semi-auto 1919s or M2s, etc. This is why even though the regulations don't specify that a second pistol grip on a pistol is an AOW, that configuration falls into the AOW category as it is "concealable" and the definition of a "pistol" per 27 CFR 479.11 is "a weapon originally designed,made, and intended to fire a projectile(bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)." Putting a second forward grip on a pistol means its now designed to be fired by two hands so is no longer a pistol and therefore loses its "pistol" exemption from the AOW category. The same issue applies when owning a concealed firing case and a pistol, as once the pistol is placed within the case it is now "no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand with a grip at angle to the bore" and is still concealable (being less than 26" in length) and hence the firearm becomes an AOW. Same deal as say a zip/pen gun even with a rifled bore is a AOW since it has no angled grip to the bore, but a stinger pen gun isn't an AOW because it twists into an L-Shape before firing. In the situation regarding an SP89 and a Concealable-Firing case. Its my belief that a short barrel rifle still maintains its AOW category "exemption" as it is still a "weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder". ....it just so happens that on some days you decided to remove the stock and fire it from a case. No different than if you removed the stock and shot it two-handed like a PDW as the NFA AOW definition doesn't mention anything about firing-gun cases. Normal handguns fall into the AOW category not because they are in a case per say, but because they are concealable and now no longer meet the definition of a pistol with a "short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore". You could make the firing case out of clear plastic (which conceals nothing) and the pistol would still become a AOW, however put the same gun in a CHL style purse (its now concealed and fireable) and its not an AOW as you are firing it from normal grip, meaning legally its still a pistol and not an AOW. The whole AOW category is stupid in my estimation but this is just my personal take on a registered SBR SP89 in a HK firing case. |
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Putting a second forward grip on a pistol means its now designed to be fired by two hands so is no longer a pistol and therefore loses its "pistol" exemption from the AOW category. But putting a second forward horizontal grip is just fine... Someone with more time, money, and clarity of thought than me should make an AOW out of a pistol with a horizontal fore grip, and sue for a tax refund (a la Thompson Center). That should be completely winnable. |
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"Hello Uncle Sam ? I'd like to register this briefcase. While we're at it could I register this folded newspaper ? We can use the date as the serial number" Along with Elvis common sense seems to have left the building. Finding an individual both employed by the BATFE and possessed of common sense is like finding the proverbial needle in the haystack. Additionally, those idiots are left to interpret laws given to them by Congress, another group not renowned for it's common sense in the realm of firearms. |
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