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Posted: 6/20/2012 5:35:16 PM EDT
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It's no secret that I have a serious axe to grind with MSAR regarding their failure to replace the 55 XM-30 magazines I returned in January, 2010. Before I get into the meat of this post, a quick recap.
I, like many others, bought XM-30 mags with the assumption that they were good to go. The truth was that some were and some weren't; I seem to have gotten stuck with those that weren't. After a few PM's back and forth with the MSAR rep on this forum, I returned them for replacement. Over the next few months I contacted him a couple times asking for an update and received a "we're working on it" type of response. To be fair, the rep did offer a solution that allowed me to continue to use the rifle without having to spend any more out of pocket money and for that I'm very thankful. Fast forward to August, 2010, and the original MSAR rep is no longer with the company and there's a new guy, either their "web guy" or their "marketing guy", representing them. He posted (in the now closed MSAR manufacturer's forum) that anyone who had returned XM-30 mags would "soon receive two mags for each mag returned". After that, things became really sporadic and the MSAR hate on the forum really cranked up into high gear and the new MSAR rep may have posted a couple times before they allowed the forum to close. Between that event and Spring 2011, I tried several times to contact MSAR and was ready to discuss legal action with my attorney, but then MSAR announced they were filing for bankruptcy protection. When I heard that announcement I figured not just the chances of my mags being replaced, but the actual mags themselves, just grew little bitty albatross wings and few off into the sunset so some idiot could shoot it with a crossbow. Recently someone claiming to be from MSAR surfaced on the forum and there was talk about MSAR returning to life and that they never went through with the bankruptcy proceedings. I thought there may yet be some hope for my missing magazines. Then when I heard the website was up and running I had a little more hope. After all, no company wants to risk pissing someone off who's savvy enough to contact others that are pissed off and create a website like MSAR-Lies.com, and collect horror stories from everyone that they've shafted, and make it public, right? So off to the website I go and discovered that there was remarkably little material there, but that there was a comment form. I submitted the following comment: Hello!
I am writing to you today to request an update on the status of magazines I returned to your company (the return was authorized and handled by Dave Robertson at the time) in January 2010. At the time, I was told to return the 55 XM-30 magazines I had purchased and that they would be replaced with new, functional magazines. Each time I requested an update I was told, "soon." Then Dave left the company. Finally, someone from your marketing/web department posted in your Industry Forum on AR15.com that the new magazines were being finalized and that anyone who had returned magazines would receive two for each one sent back. That was August of 2010. It is now June of 2012 and I'd really like to have some working magazines. I invested a very sizable sum of money in magazines I was assured would work and not one of them would feed properly. I'm glad MSAR is returning to production, but I really would like my issue resolved. Whether this means 110 replacement mags (as promised, 2 for 1), a cash refund, or other product, I'm open for negotiation. I'm not alone in having returned product at your location and I really hope that you and your company try to repair the bridges and goodwill that have been damaged by more than two years of inaction and neglect. I may be reached either at kurt@... or directly at ...-...-..... Thank you for your attention in this matter. I really didn't expect this to do anything other than fuel my frustration in the matter. I was pleasantly surprised when my phone rang about 2:15PM today and Paul from MSAR called to discuss the issue. I've had dealings with Paul before and he's always been straight with me when I asked questions, even when he knew I wouldn't like the answer. We spoke for about ten minutes or so and discussed the magazines, the new STG-E4, the revised E4 stock (with some very smart, if minor, changes), and a few other things. The meat of what I was worried about, the replacement of the XM-30 mags, was addressed to my satisfaction to placate me for the near future. He's been intimately involved with making the new molds for the mags and ensuring that the proper polymer is used. The new XM-30s are going to be slightly different if I understood correctly (smoke instead of amber), and hopefully the biggest difference will be that they work! So, the bottom line is that for the first time in about two years I've contacted MSAR and received a friendly, helpful, talkative response to my questions that I didn't feel was blowing smoke up my ass. I know some are going to say that I'm being naive and maybe I am allowing hope to override my cynicism. The final answer on this is whether I see my mags actually replaced. I want to believe that MSAR is going to try to turn a new leaf and be the company that got me so excited about AUG pattern rifles in late 2009. So for now, I'm going to put the pitchfork and torches back into the shed and wait until it gets a little cooler before deciding that the cause is lost and that the only option is one where Lawyer Daggit wins. I urge those of you who are in a similar position to reach out to MSAR and let them know you're still out there and intend to hold them accountable for the product that they promised to replace or repair. But...do it diplomatically no matter how pissed you might be; let them know you're going to hold them accountable. If what Paul told me today comes to pass, MSAR is going to bring a very substantial product to market as well as some very nice upgrades that are backwards compatible. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'll answer this one up front: I haven't been "bought off" to make this post. All I received was a phone call from someone I've known as a "good guy" who was making a sincere effort to let someone know what was going on and that his issue was known and would be resolved. Kurt |
| kfeltenberger, you seem to have the biggest financial and frustrational beef with MSAR as a private consumer. I am waiting on a green light from you detailing how your problem is solved before I will ever do business with MSAR. Sounds like they are on the right track. |
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Thanks, guys!
I know there are a lot of others in the same position I'm in and I wanted to let everyone know what's happened. I've been pretty harsh over the last two years and I think it's only fair that if something seems to be moving in the right direction that I let everyone know about it. |
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Quoted: ... I've been pretty harsh over the last two years... Really? We hadn't noticed.  Thanks for sharing the whole story above, and for the great detail/back-story. Very helpful IMHO.  Like you, I hope they come back strong, mend fences across the board, and have great success in the bullpup market for years to come. (And I'm hoping against hope that we still may see an MCS, some day... ) |
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Quoted:
How about the canted optics issue? Any word on that as mine is rather annoying! This wasn't why I contacted them and since it wasn't my specific problem I didn't bring it up. As I said before, contact them and be polite with your question and leave the anger and animosity in the man cave. |
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Quoted:
They owe me six mags. 
They going to make everyone that sent them back whole? This is just my opinion so keep that in mind...The vibe I got from Paul was that if they had your name and how many mags you returned, they were going to make good on it. That said, it's been a while since the great debacle of 2010 and I think a quick note asking for an e-mail confirmation may be in order. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
... I've been pretty harsh over the last two years... Really? We hadn't noticed.
Thanks for sharing the whole story above, and for the great detail/back-story. Very helpful IMHO.
Like you, I hope they come back strong, mend fences across the board, and have great success in the bullpup market for years to come. (And I'm hoping against hope that we still may see an MCS, some day... )  Thanks!
I wanted to lay out the sequence of events as I remembered them so it was in one place rather than having to search all over for it. I'd love to see an MCS, but first I want to see the new stock and hammer pack that Paul mentioned. I realize that there's a bit of pride involved on his end, but the tweaks to the stock and his comments about the fire control group have me very intrigued. With MSAR coming back and Steyr getting back into production, I think that the consumer is going to come out ahead because now they'll each have competition. |
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Can you go into any detail on the new tweaks? Trigger pack wise.
I talked to Paul in Bradford and seemed like a good guy when I had issue with my MSAR about the time of the move, I was directed to Jeff down south who was a guy between a rock and a hard place (the Boss and Me) trying to hold it together with little to no support. Could feel the guys pain been in a deal something like that myself once. I hope some bridges with the guys who took all the crap and or got run off get some repair. I did get my issue fixed (a new barrel) just before everything went totally out of wack. 
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Quoted:
Can you go into any detail on the new tweaks? Trigger pack wise. Paul didn't go into a whole lot of details about the trigger pack other than it was going to make the trigger pull smoother/cleaner and help cycling. Not sure what the last part is, but I sort of got the idea that it was a different approach to the way things had been done. He did confirm that the new stock and the hammer pack would be mix and match compatible with earlier generations (you'd still need a square lock receiver, though). The hammer pack was interesting, but for me, it wasn't something that was a priority. The current version works ok. The new stock sounds like something very worthwhile. The helicoils are gone (or supported by) a different method that has the threads supported by metal and not plastic. Also, the stupid piece of rail in front of the trigger guard is gone, but the internal support piece is going to remain. All of the leaks aside, the bottom line question is going to be whether they make good on their RMAs. I sensed a desire from Paul to "do the right thing" and my general faith in humanity is giving him the benefit of the doubt. |
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Quoted:
It's no secret that I have a serious axe to grind with MSAR regarding their failure to replace the 55 XM-30 magazines I returned in January, 2010. Before I get into the meat of this post, a quick recap. I, like many others, bought XM-30 mags with the assumption that they were good to go. The truth was that some were and some weren't; I seem to have gotten stuck with those that weren't. After a few PM's back and forth with the MSAR rep on this forum, I returned them for replacement. Over the next few months I contacted him a couple times asking for an update and received a "we're working on it" type of response. To be fair, the rep did offer a solution that allowed me to continue to use the rifle without having to spend any more out of pocket money and for that I'm very thankful. Fast forward to August, 2010, and the original MSAR rep is no longer with the company and there's a new guy, either their "web guy" or their "marketing guy", representing them. He posted (in the now closed MSAR manufacturer's forum) that anyone who had returned XM-30 mags would "soon receive two mags for each mag returned". After that, things became really sporadic and the MSAR hate on the forum really cranked up into high gear and the new MSAR rep may have posted a couple times before they allowed the forum to close. Between that event and Spring 2011, I tried several times to contact MSAR and was ready to discuss legal action with my attorney, but then MSAR announced they were filing for bankruptcy protection. When I heard that announcement I figured not just the chances of my mags being replaced, but the actual mags themselves, just grew little bitty albatross wings and few off into the sunset so some idiot could shoot it with a crossbow. Recently someone claiming to be from MSAR surfaced on the forum and there was talk about MSAR returning to life and that they never went through with the bankruptcy proceedings. I thought there may yet be some hope for my missing magazines. Then when I heard the website was up and running I had a little more hope. After all, no company wants to risk pissing someone off who's savvy enough to contact others that are pissed off and create a website like MSAR-Lies.com, and collect horror stories from everyone that they've shafted, and make it public, right? So off to the website I go and discovered that there was remarkably little material there, but that there was a comment form. I submitted the following comment: Hello!
I am writing to you today to request an update on the status of magazines I returned to your company (the return was authorized and handled by Dave Robertson at the time) in January 2010. At the time, I was told to return the 55 XM-30 magazines I had purchased and that they would be replaced with new, functional magazines. Each time I requested an update I was told, "soon." Then Dave left the company. Finally, someone from your marketing/web department posted in your Industry Forum on AR15.com that the new magazines were being finalized and that anyone who had returned magazines would receive two for each one sent back. That was August of 2010. It is now June of 2012 and I'd really like to have some working magazines. I invested a very sizable sum of money in magazines I was assured would work and not one of them would feed properly. I'm glad MSAR is returning to production, but I really would like my issue resolved. Whether this means 110 replacement mags (as promised, 2 for 1), a cash refund, or other product, I'm open for negotiation. I'm not alone in having returned product at your location and I really hope that you and your company try to repair the bridges and goodwill that have been damaged by more than two years of inaction and neglect. I may be reached either at kurt@... or directly at ...-...-..... Thank you for your attention in this matter. I really didn't expect this to do anything other than fuel my frustration in the matter. I was pleasantly surprised when my phone rang about 2:15PM today and Paul from MSAR called to discuss the issue. I've had dealings with Paul before and he's always been straight with me when I asked questions, even when he knew I wouldn't like the answer. We spoke for about ten minutes or so and discussed the magazines, the new STG-E4, the revised E4 stock (with some very smart, if minor, changes), and a few other things. The meat of what I was worried about, the replacement of the XM-30 mags, was addressed to my satisfaction to placate me for the near future. He's been intimately involved with making the new molds for the mags and ensuring that the proper polymer is used. The new XM-30s are going to be slightly different if I understood correctly (smoke instead of amber), and hopefully the biggest difference will be that they work! So, the bottom line is that for the first time in about two years I've contacted MSAR and received a friendly, helpful, talkative response to my questions that I didn't feel was blowing smoke up my ass. I know some are going to say that I'm being naive and maybe I am allowing hope to override my cynicism. The final answer on this is whether I see my mags actually replaced. I want to believe that MSAR is going to try to turn a new leaf and be the company that got me so excited about AUG pattern rifles in late 2009. So for now, I'm going to put the pitchfork and torches back into the shed and wait until it gets a little cooler before deciding that the cause is lost and that the only option is one where Lawyer Daggit wins. I urge those of you who are in a similar position to reach out to MSAR and let them know you're still out there and intend to hold them accountable for the product that they promised to replace or repair. But...do it diplomatically no matter how pissed you might be; let them know you're going to hold them accountable. If what Paul told me today comes to pass, MSAR is going to bring a very substantial product to market as well as some very nice upgrades that are backwards compatible. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'll answer this one up front: I haven't been "bought off" to make this post. All I received was a phone call from someone I've known as a "good guy" who was making a sincere effort to let someone know what was going on and that his issue was known and would be resolved. Kurt I feel sorry for you, your in denial and they once again took advantage of your good nature. Your a good person and they discovered through the phone call that they could bluff you into cooling off and waiting longer. They should have offered you a complete refund if they were truly honest and willing to rebuild their company and reputation. You've been suffering for a long time and cheated out of your money , call their bluff and demand a refund ! |
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i really hope msar gets their shit together, and gets to making quality e4 rifles.
im working on buying a 556 and if i like it, handling, shooting, and hopefully it functions well. if i like it, i am fully planning on buying 4,or 5, e-4 rifles for my little armory. looking foreward to see what they come up with. although personally im going to buy magpul magazines to use with them if i get that far, as i know they are great mags. i really love the aug rifle design, and if msar can produce a consistent, high quality rifle, i think it will be awesome. hopefully the price wont go up too much though, but if they can do a high quality rifle, offer plentiful spare parts, and customer service, id pay for 5 of them happily. |
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Quoted:
I feel sorry for you, your in denial and they once again took advantage of your good nature. Your a good person and they discovered through the phone call that they could bluff you into cooling off and waiting longer. They should have offered you a complete refund if they were truly honest and willing to rebuild their company and reputation. You've been suffering for a long time and cheated out of your money , call their bluff and demand a refund ! I was waiting for a comment like this... If nothing else, I've become very practical in how I approach this issue. Getting angry isn't going to get me anywhere and demanding my money back and a buck will get be a double cheeseburger at McD's. Should they have taken the initiative and cut me a check for the 55 mags? Perhaps. But the warranty is repair or replace, IIRC, so I'm not expecting them to do that. What happened over the last two days is what I hoped would happen; a fast response with an update on what the company is doing to rectify the situation. I would rather have functional magazines that I can say, "Look! These SOB's frakking work!" than the money, because I know I'll spend the money and not have the mags! |
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Quoted:
Quoted: I feel sorry for you, your in denial and they once again took advantage of your good nature. Your a good person and they discovered through the phone call that they could bluff you into cooling off and waiting longer. They should have offered you a complete refund if they were truly honest and willing to rebuild their company and reputation. You've been suffering for a long time and cheated out of your money , call their bluff and demand a refund ! I was waiting for a comment like this... If nothing else, I've become very practical in how I approach this issue. Getting angry isn't going to get me anywhere and demanding my money back and a buck will get be a double cheeseburger at McD's. Should they have taken the initiative and cut me a check for the 55 mags? Perhaps. But the warranty is repair or replace, IIRC, so I'm not expecting them to do that. What happened over the last two days is what I hoped would happen; a fast response with an update on what the company is doing to rectify the situation. I would rather have functional magazines that I can say, "Look! These SOB's frakking work!" than the money, because I know I'll spend the money and not have the mags! The proof will be in the pudding, I guess. Hope you get your shit straightened out with MSAR. Lots of hope and good feelings years ago when MSAR could do no wrong and were blowing and going. Then they fucking cratered and did serious wrong to a lot of people (me included-I've got the wonky sight on my E4). If they make it right, as they should, then they are back to square one. But past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, so I will plan accordingly. |
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Quoted: A good lesson to buy guns with common mags.  The only reason I was interested in an AUG type rifle was because it used AR mags. Even my 9mm AR takes Glock mags. This thread is about the MSAR designed and manufactured polymer AR (common) magazines (which turned out to be problematic) and not unique magazines. Strangely, the MSAR variation of the AUG magazine used in the original STG-556 had no issues.. |
| I dont believe anything they say. I bought the first version STG. It went back 4 times for feeding problems. The last time it went back I spoke to the owner and he said he would make sure it is fixed and send a knife to make up for the cost of shipping it back 4 times and waisting about 2 years. They returned the rifle and of course no knife. It sits in the safe collecting dust. They will never see a dime from me again. |
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