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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - MSR E4 vs FS2000 (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/28/2010 1:37:05 PM EDT
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I'm shopping for a Bullpup. Pro's and Con's of each. Those who own one or both please enlighten me. Reliability, availible parts, ETC.
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I've often characterized the FS2000 as feeling like you're shouldering a tuna. That said, I don't see that as a detriment; it just feels a bit novel until you get accustomed to it. The FS2K is a fantastic weapon. I'm certainly keeping mine, but I'm liking my E4 a bit more as of late. The E4 has the standard AR thread pattern of 1/2"x28 for swapping muzzle devices and the trigger can be easily improved upon. Although I can't say the same for the FS2K, I like it so much that I'm seriously thinking of having the barrel re-threaded to the standard AR pattern.
IMHO, they are both equally viable platforms, each with pro and cons largely determined by subjective criteria. Therefore, my decision would rest upon price. If the E4 is still available at the $1,300 price point, then that's absolutely the way to go. You'll likely not see E4's at that pricing ever again, so jump on it if possible. The FS2K's are more expensive and the $250 factory rebate promo has ended. |
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The FS2000 is longer in overall length than the E4 at 29.29" with its non-quick change thin profile 17.44" barrel and pinned muzzle break. Whereas, the MSAR E4 is 27" in overall length with its quick change fluted standard (heavy barrels available) and comes with a flash suppressor or muzzle break.
The FS2000 is heavier than the E4 at 8.04 lbs unloaded. Whereas, the E4 only weights 7.2 lbs unloaded. The FS2000's bolt does not hold open after the last round from the magazine is chambered and fired. The FS2000 has a "thumb-hole" stock. Whereas, the E4 has a pistol grip. The FS2000 has forward ejection where spent casings are collected in an ejection chute and spill out of the front. Whereas, the E4 ejects each spent casing to either the left or right depending the bolt that is installed. The FS2000 keeps dirt and debris out of the magazine group by engulfing it with its polymer stock and surrounding it with a gasket. This FS2000 design feature prevents the user from using currently available polymer magazines. Alteration to this design feature could void warranty work. FNH does not offer a lifetime warranty to their FS2000. Instead an FS2000 comes with a FIVE YEAR Limited Warranty. Whereas, the E4 comes with a Lifetime Limited Warranty. Parts for FNH firearms are expensive and although you will want to confirm this for yourself I do not believe they sell FS2000 barrels to civilians. There are however companies that sell aftermarket FS2000 barrels and will "cut" barrels. The E4 has planned caliber conversions. There have been no announcements by FNH that I am aware of that will provide caliber conversions for the FS2000. The FS2000 does not come available with a vertical fore-grip. You have to purchase an FNH tri-rail that can be swapped out with the factory fore-grip. The FS2000 is more expensive than the E4. FNH has at present better quality control than MSAR. The bolt of the FS2000 is overly complex although AUG bolt sleeves have had issues in the past, but MSAR appears to have recognized this and remedied this by changing the bolt sleeve design into a more solid piece. You can view pictures of the MSAR bolt sleeve compared to the AUG A1 in the tacked thread here. You should be able to find pictures of the very unique bolt of the FS2000 through Google. The MSAR is more slim than the FS2000. IMHO opinion the E4 trigger pull and reset is superior to the FS2000. ______________________________________ All the above stated let it be known that I am a BIG fan of MSAR and have faith in my STG556, which has performed very well and is well suited to my personal likes. I suggest you talk to FNH FS2000 fans like Judochop who will present the FS2000 in a positive light, because he has found it to perform very well and be well suited to his personal likes. It's always important to hear from fans of both rifles, look at the hard specs and features, and then come to your own well informed conclusion. Good luck. |
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I've often characterized the FS2000 as feeling like you're shouldering a tuna. That said, I don't see that as a detriment; it just feels a bit novel until you get accustomed to it. The FS2K is a fantastic weapon. I'm certainly keeping mine, but I'm liking my E4 a bit more as of late. The E4 has the standard AR thread pattern of 1/2"x28 for swapping muzzle devices and the trigger can be easily improved upon. Although I can't say the same for the FS2K, I like it so much that I'm seriously thinking of having the barrel re-threaded to the standard AR pattern. IMHO, they are both equally viable platforms, each with pros and cons largely determined by subjective criteria. Therefore, my decision would rest upon price. If the E4 is still available at the $1,300 price point, then that's absolutely the way to go. You'll likely not see E4's at that pricing ever again, so jump on it if possible. The FS2K's are more expensive and the $250 factory rebate promo has ended. |
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I think the pros and cons are well covered so far.
I just got my STG556, and would note that it has a much better trigger than my FS2000. I like my FS2000 better, just like the first time I compared the two. I shoot left handed, and not having to change the bolt to change from left to right handed firing positions is a plus for me. I would take the FS2000 over the STG, even though on paper the STG has more advantages than disadvantages than the FS2000. Which is great for me. The STG 556 is awesome and also a keeper. I think the average person will like the STG better than the FS2000. |
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I know this is arfcom and everyone has a foregrip fetish, but do yourself a favor if possible and get and handle them both.
Foregrips are really cool and great for patrolling and long shifts but as someone who's shot both a lot (aug not e4) I found the aug foregrip to be out of place and annoying unless it's folded forward I do agree the fs2000s foregrip could go on a diet though |
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I own both. The STG is a 50 yard gun, the FS is a 100+ yard gun. Nuff said. This sounds more like a reflection of the user's ability with the rifle and not of the rifle, especially given the comparison that was posted a few months back between a STG (or E4?) and a Wilson or Les Baer M4. The STG equaled the M4 out to about 100 yards which was the limit of the testing. |
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I own both. The STG is a 50 yard gun, the FS is a 100+ yard gun. Nuff said. I've used both before settling on the STG. W/the STG I can easily do offhand shots on the 200m gong & the 300m gong is very doable if I do my part. That's good enough for me w/non-magnified optics. This is just personal preference but I didn't care for the way the FS2K handled, the lack of BHO or the scary-complex bolt assy (YMMV). Tomac STG & FS2K side-by-side: 
FS2K bolt assy: 
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| Just where is it written the AUG-style rifles or the STG-556 rifles are CQB only? I've used my STG-556 in the last two Ft. Benning 3-gun matches with no problems past 300 yards on 10 inch steel plate reactive targets. The first year I used Wolf 62 grain ammo because I had no other at the time I zeroed the rifle's optics and it performed as well as some custom AR-15 rifles costing over twice as much as the MSAR. I fully agree with an earlier post, it all depends on the operator's skills. I've handled the FS2000 and it seemed bloated compared to the MSAR. |
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Here is another fact to add: Both are easily able to be fired one handed, in case you practice that sort of drill.
As far as sling options, it looks like the STG gen 4 I have will be a lot easier to sling. I find magazine changes much easier and simpler on the FS2000––the placement and size and configuration of the release button all favor the FS2000. Also, the FS2000 magwell is larger and easier to 'hit" with the incoming magazine, or so it seems to me. |
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Quoted: Agreed...Quoted: I like the feel of the STG better than the FS2000, but not being able to transition to the left side without changing bolts is a huge disadvantage in my opinion. Why can't you transition to the left side?  I keep hearing people cite this as flaw in the design, but to me its really a fairly minor training issue. The AUG is not an M4, and if you try and run it like an M4 you are going to have problems. Things that work on one may not on the other without modifying technique. But to me the AUG has so many other areas that it is superior in, the trade off of having to modify weakside technique is minor to almost inconsequential. |
wow nobodies come in to claim some BS that neither is good because they are bullpops and not really tactical weapons
lol ive loved looking at FS2000 for a long time and really want one but.. man the E4 gets more attractive everyday, and i finally got a job, so weighing these pro's and con's is about to get a lot more real 
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I like the feel of the STG better than the FS2000, but not being able to transition to the left side without changing bolts is a huge disadvantage in my opinion. Why can't you transition to the left side? I don't like ejected shells hitting the side of my face, your mileage may vary. 
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I like the feel of the STG better than the FS2000, but not being able to transition to the left side without changing bolts is a huge disadvantage in my opinion. Why can't you transition to the left side? I don't like ejected shells hitting the side of my face, your mileage may vary.
I've never had a casing hit the side of my face when shooting my AUG from the off-side. Pull back from the ejection port, tip the rifle down, and/or put your off-hand on the stock. All of these work well for the rare time that you will have to transition to your weak side. I just shot my AUG A3 in a competition with lots of off-side transitions required in one of the stages and placed 1st out of 34 shooters. I beat the other shooters by quite a bit on this stage, and it's what won the match for me (since I royally screwed up on one of the other stages  ). Off-side transitioning with an AUG is not an issue.
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I like the feel of the STG better than the FS2000, but not being able to transition to the left side without changing bolts is a huge disadvantage in my opinion. Why can't you transition to the left side? I don't like ejected shells hitting the side of my face, your mileage may vary. Don't be such a baby. It's just little bits of very hot brass going pretty fast. |
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Do you guys like the FS 2000 or the STG enough to sell an AR to buy one? I am thinking about getting one, and pondering selling an AR to do it Depends on what kind of AR and how many you have. I wouldn't sell your last Colt to get one. But I'd certainly sacrafice some off brand post ban runts of the litter. |
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My Colt will stay with me..............this one is an LCW lower on Stag upper
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Do you guys like the FS 2000 or the STG enough to sell an AR to buy one? I am thinking about getting one, and pondering selling an AR to do it Depends on what kind of AR and how many you have. I wouldn't sell your last Colt to get one. But I'd certainly sacrafice some off brand post ban runts of the litter. |
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My Colt will stay with me..............this one is an LCW lower on Stag upper Quoted:
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Do you guys like the FS 2000 or the STG enough to sell an AR to buy one? I am thinking about getting one, and pondering selling an AR to do it Depends on what kind of AR and how many you have. I wouldn't sell your last Colt to get one. But I'd certainly sacrafice some off brand post ban runts of the litter. Oh ya. If you have a Colt in reserve I'd sell that LCW/Stag mut and get an E-4. If you have $2000 worth of crap you're holding for the brother-in-law while he does time, that's the type of stuff to sell and buy a FS2000. |
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I like the feel of the STG better than the FS2000, but not being able to transition to the left side without changing bolts is a huge disadvantage in my opinion. Why can't you transition to the left side? I don't like ejected shells hitting the side of my face, your mileage may vary.
I've never had a casing hit the side of my face when shooting my AUG from the off-side. Pull back from the ejection port, tip the rifle down, and/or put your off-hand on the stock. All of these work well for the rare time that you will have to transition to your weak side. I just shot my AUG A3 in a competition with lots of off-side transitions required in one of the stages and placed 1st out of 34 shooters. I beat the other shooters by quite a bit on this stage, and it's what won the match for me (since I royally screwed up on one of the other stages ). Off-side transitioning with an AUG is not an issue.So, with a right hand bolt, transitioning to left side, I would put my right hand between my face and the ejection port? It does seem easier to just move back on the stock if the optic has enough eye relief––might be a problem with some ACOGS, but not a red dot...I'll have to try this one. |
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How do you like them? They are tempting
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Do you guys like the FS 2000 or the STG enough to sell an AR to buy one? I am thinking about getting one, and pondering selling an AR to do it What's an "AR"???... 
Tomac http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofRotationofFourCompletedSTGs.jpg |
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Possibly, but I know Tomac will give me all the pros and cons as well.......... Quoted:
Well, lets see. He has four FIVE of them. All purchased before the MSAR sale. I think he may like them OK. Seems a bit like asking the Pope if he enjoys being Catholic. Fixed it for 'ya, MTguns! (The 5th is NIB and not shown in the photo above)
Cyclone: Ask and ye shall receive (Cliff Notes version)! IMHO: STG pros: Short (16" ballistics in an SBR-size pkg), fast-handling, very manueverable in tight quarters, modular, clean-running, adjustable gas system, quick-change bbl, very rugged/reliable mags (love the 42rdrs, I get 40% more ammo per mag and the extra length makes mag manipulation easier during reloads w/o using Magpuls or Ranger Plates), everything made in the US so no import bans to worry about, easy to strip/clean/maintain, spare parts available. STG cons: Relatively short optic rail, care must be taken selecting optic & mount to prevent finger snagging when working the charging handle, decent-enough trigger for tactical use and it can be improved but it will never be as good as a match AR trigger (if that's important to you), fixed LOP, fewer good locations for mounting a taclight, can need a couple of hundred rds to break-in properly, bbl has metric thread instead of the common US 1/2x28. My best friend (cop) and I ran a couple of my STG's through a 2-day carbine class last summer, firing appx 2K rds of crappy Brown Bear 55gr. His ran 100% and mine made it to the very end of the last day when I began experiencing stuck casings. My best friend was so impressed w/the STG that I gave him the one he ran the class with. I've personally experienced several broken extractors (old-style, none of the new-style have broken) and a couple of broken bolt sleeves after a combined rd count of nearly 7K rds through all 4 STG's. While I may change optics as frequently as most people change their socks there is no other platform currently available that comes close to meeting my personal requirements for a HD carbine. HTH... Tomac |
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When the ban comes which will be worth more? What ban? The sky isn't falling, Chicken Little. Right now just about anything the Dems do is going to cost them big; they've worn out the grace of the American public. No you had a Republican president, who with the stoke of a pen doubled the value of my AUG and HK-94 by forbidding their importation into the U.S. The FS2000 is not made in Pennsylvania. |
| Not trying to thread hijack, but another ban like the 1994 version is probably unlikely. Not to say some incremental or divisional ban may be attempted in some form as all but a few hardcase Dems still fly the gun ban banner. The newer generation of professional Washington politician realizes supporting or sponsoring a gun ban could be the kiss of death to a political career (ask Mr. John Kerry). After all, firearm and ammuntion manufacturers are one of the private sectors that still show profits in this current economy and have not had mass layoffs. Kinda hard to justify killing thriving industries in states with already existing massive unemployment to those state governors and expect them to back you in the next election. |
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Thanks for the reply............Those are sweet, and since I have many M-16 mags, the E4 version would be the one I get...........but I am persuaded to get one, so soon as I find an E4 with a good price, then I shall have one
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Possibly, but I know Tomac will give me all the pros and cons as well.......... Quoted:
Well, lets see. He has four FIVE of them. All purchased before the MSAR sale. I think he may like them OK. Seems a bit like asking the Pope if he enjoys being Catholic. Fixed it for 'ya, MTguns! (The 5th is NIB and not shown in the photo above)
Cyclone: Ask and ye shall receive (Cliff Notes version)! IMHO: STG pros: Short (16" ballistics in an SBR-size pkg), fast-handling, very manueverable in tight quarters, modular, clean-running, adjustable gas system, quick-change bbl, very rugged/reliable mags (love the 42rdrs, I get 40% more ammo per mag and the extra length makes mag manipulation easier during reloads w/o using Magpuls or Ranger Plates), everything made in the US so no import bans to worry about, easy to strip/clean/maintain, spare parts available. STG cons: Relatively short optic rail, care must be taken selecting optic & mount to prevent finger snagging when working the charging handle, decent-enough trigger for tactical use and it can be improved but it will never be as good as a match AR trigger (if that's important to you), fixed LOP, fewer good locations for mounting a taclight, can need a couple of hundred rds to break-in properly, bbl has metric thread instead of the common US 1/2x28. My best friend (cop) and I ran a couple of my STG's through a 2-day carbine class last summer, firing appx 2K rds of crappy Brown Bear 55gr. His ran 100% and mine made it to the very end of the last day when I began experiencing stuck casings. My best friend was so impressed w/the STG that I gave him the one he ran the class with. I've personally experienced several broken extractors (old-style, none of the new-style have broken) and a couple of broken bolt sleeves after a combined rd count of nearly 7K rds through all 4 STG's. While I may change optics as frequently as most people change their socks there is no other platform currently available that comes close to meeting my personal requirements for a HD carbine. HTH... Tomac |
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When the ban comes which will be worth more? Question: How much does a new FN-made replacement bbl for the FS2K cost? Answer: The same cost as a new FS2K because you already cannot import FN-made barrels by themselves. I'll take the US-made rifle w/plentiful spare parts (including quick-change spare bbls) and in-country customer service, thank you... Tomac |
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I wish the E4 came without the finger groove on the grip like the standard STG556, the standard model feels much better to me, but the ability to use M16 mags is a huge advantage.
I know I talked about the shortcomings of the ejection earlier, but it doesn't mean I still don't want one at some point. 
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| I own both of these fine rifles and i would choose the STG over the FS 2000 by only a slim margin. Both these guns are fun to shoot and both are vary accurate for their designs dictate. The FS standard model is a cool looking space gun, accurate from the box and has a Buck Rogers look, The complicated bolt system at first was a concern for myself but as time pressed forward and three thousand rounds later i learned this gun will do the job in first class fashion. The STG again is a winner, short as a Colt Commando, and the ability to change barrels is nice and the 1.6 optic is an equal to the FS in many ways but the STG feels better in the hands, feels more solid and robust. All FNH has to do now is drop the entry price down about 400.00 dollars and opinions and buying clarity may change over time. Anyway both are excellent guns for the range and a good field tool to have behind the seat for close encounters. |
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I hate to ressurect an old thread, but I'll leave this here in case anyone else out there is debating this same issue.....
I wanted an exotic rifle. Something small, something sleek, something reliable enough to match the trustworthiness of my AK rifles that I have long relied on to defend myself and my family. Half fun, half serious, I guess you could say. I looked at the RFB. Too expensive, unproven, no sights, pricey ammo. I looked at the PS90. Anemic round, stupid looking long barrel, pricey for what you get. I narrowed it down to the AUG clones or the FS2000. I handled, shot, and fell in love with both.....but I ultimately went home with the FS2000. I'm not going to get into the pro's and con's of the STG/E4, that has been talked out all over the place on this forum. I will, however, state that reliability is the absolute number one important factor when I buy a defensive weapon. In regards to the MSAR rifles *THAT I PERSONALLY TESTED* reliability was not 100%. Now I know that Microtech makes an awesome product, but one or two jams, even with crappy ammo was enough to push me toward the FN...... Again, the MSAR clones are FINE weapons, and their merits and flaws have been talked to death here. Here is my take on the FN FS2000, and why it was for me at least, the better choice.....There are, however, some caveats. Let this be my honest critique of the weapon: There are a few things you should know, as a new or potential FS2000 owner: 1) Dont manhandle the charging handle. Normal function is fine, but dont treat it like an HK and slap the handle around. They have been known to break. Bob, the customer service guy at FN, says that they have had less than a dozen breakages out of several thousand weapons sold. 2) Read the manual regarding disassembly and reassembly of the weapon. Most parts breakages come when people put it back together wrong, breaking a part called the "switch" in the process. This part is plastic, and is vital to the function of the rifle. Bob, FN's customer service guy, will send you a new one if you break it, but its still not something you want to mess with. 3) This gun MUST have good magazines to function properly. The mag that comes with the gun is crap. You may or may not even be able to swap the follower on it. I tried to get a Magpul antitilt follower into the factory mag, but it got stuck halfway into the mag. It must be out of spec. Either way, I gave it away to a friend, and Id encourage you to be wary of using it. Get some CProducts mags and dont look back. I think the number one cause of malfunctions with the FS is crap mags. 4)You MAY have light primer strikes with some types of ammo. The FS2000 underwent a number of factory modifications (for 'our safety') that, to make a long story short, ended up making the firing pin hit too softly on some hard military primers. It all depends on the generation of your rifle, but if you end up with light hits, this is why. There are two solutions: you can either remove the firing pin buffer spring (or a few coils from it) as long as you plan on using mostly hard-primered ammo. Or, you can send the gun in to FN and have them install a stronger hammer spring, which supposedly alleviates the issue. Some guys still report an occasional light hit though. 5) The FS2000 is pretty reliable with most any ammunition, but some underpowered stuff, like Wolf Black Box, may necessitate adjustment of the gas valve. Assuming you got a manual with your gun, you can read about how this works. In most cases, short stroking malfunctions are a result of weak ammo, and you can simply turn up the gas knob to fix it. The FS2000 is a nice weapon, but its not without its quirks. Learn what kind of ammo it likes best, and learn the right way to take it apart, and you shouldnt have any issues. IN SUMMARY: If you use good mags with no-tilt followers, avoid the black box wolf ammo, and remove the firing pin spring, your FS2000 will be dead nuts reliable. Mine has been for almost 2000 rounds. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - MSR E4 vs FS2000 (Page 1 of 2)
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