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Posted: 1/1/2017 9:57:51 PM EDT
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Why doesn't RCBS/FA/Hornady make a low cost annealing machine? Seems like everything else is available mass produced except these. I've seen all the DIY kits, Induction units and of course, Giraud's masterpiece, but who wants to pay $500-1,000 for one?
Considering FA put together a wet tumbler for under $200 that kicks butt, I don't see why they couldn't knock together a basic annealer for the same. |
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We had a poster here buy an eddy current annealer and the first and second one burnt out quickly.  Quoted:
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I would like to see a mass produced eddy current annealer with a auto timer that I fed manually. |
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Yes, all water cooled loop. Â That wasn't the issue, it was internal electronics that would not come close the duty cycle rating of the device. Â
Best bet was someone that got a C- in their electronics classes was designing the unit. I did get all of my money back.  |
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Yes, all water cooled loop.  That wasn't the issue, it was internal electronics that would not come close the duty cycle rating of the device.  Best bet was someone that got a C- in their electronics classes was designing the unit. I did get all of my money back.  |
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Liability is likely part of the answer, in addition to a controlled process being actually significantly expensive to make. Lots of unknowns/variables you'd have to control to ensure that the user is following safe practices, and no real external indicators if the brass does actually get borked.
Good inductive heaters are actually pretty expensive. I work with units suited to this level of power in my lab. Good ones cost thousands of dollars. Unless the price point is relatively high (high enough to significantly narrow the market size), I don't see an automated feedback-based machine/process being very profitable. |
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Liability is likely part of the answer, in addition to a controlled process being actually significantly expensive to make. Lots of unknowns/variables you'd have to control to ensure that the user is following safe practices, and no real external indicators if the brass does actually get borked. Good inductive heaters are actually pretty expensive. I work with units suited to this level of power in my lab. Good ones cost thousands of dollars. Unless the price point is relatively high (high enough to significantly narrow the market size), I don't see an automated feedback-based machine/process being very profitable. I don't buy the liability argument. Its relatively easy to overcharge a piece of brass during reloading and many people reload brass more times than they should. You cook a piece of brass too long you get the same result. (head case separation). Surprised nobody has mentioned the Giraud patent yet... I skimmed through it and some of the claims are pretty broad. It won't expire until 2031 I think, but I have to wonder if it is holding back entry into the market. It doesn't help that surplus brass prices appear to have recovered since 2013 with prices for 7.62x51mm under $100/k and 5.56x45mm under $50/k shipped. |
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I built an induction machine that feeds from a hopper. Parts alone are getting close to your $500 figure, and that was being frugal and making the hopper and feed mechanisms myself.
Yes I could have bought a commercial option, but the plus side is it's computer controlled, uses servos and such to feed the brass. The computer I programed myself and I can adjust the anneal time to within 1/1000 of a second while it's operating to dial in perfect timing. The hopper is reloading press style where you dump them in and they orient themselves so it's faster to load then a Giruard, I can dump in 3000 pieces of .223 and it goes to town with minimal supervision. A commercial outfit might be able to make and sell it for around $750-$1000. How many people are willing to pay that much? I've also built 3 of the rotary disk with holes and propane torch versions, each version improving on the next. A hopper fed one would be at least $300-$400 mass produced. My first was made with minimal investment and cost around $80, so you can definitely build one for cheap, but it will be cheap ($20 BBQ motor, MDF frame/disk, two propane torches with all-thread mounts). I think your poll options and the tone of your post are the answer to your question, the vast majority of reloaders just aren't willing to spend real money on annealing equipment because in reality, it's not necessary unless you compete or shoot expensive brass that you want to make last as long as possible. And even then, unless you compete at a high level you won't see much, if any, accuracy gain. The market for such a product is so small a big company will have a hard time seeing the profit in spending the resources on mass production. I'm not arguing, just giving information based on my limited experience. If you really want to see the cost involved with annealers there's lots of great videos of homemade ones on YouTube and some great posts detailing how to make your own. Build one yourself and you'll see the money adds up quickly. Stainless tumblers on the other hand are hardly a comparison. I spent around $150 to build mine and it handles 2500 pieces of .223. |
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The benefits of case neck annealing are supposed to be - extending brass life and accuracy increases due to uniformity of neck tension. Can anyone post any factual information which demonstrates either?
Can anyone post group sizes with and without annealing case necks (all other things being held constant)? Can anyone post information showing case life with and without annealing case necks (all other things being held constant)? I ask these questions because I see a lot of people buying lots of "stuff" for reasons that lack a solid foundation and this troubles me. Yes, it's a hobby but hobbyists should not be exploited. I do not anneal and my reloads are NOT the limiting factor in my accuracy, I am. I am not a trained benchrest shooter and cannot seem to get below about 1/2 MOA on any consistent basis due to limitations of my hold and tripping the trigger. How much improvement will result from case neck annealing? I mostly shoot bolt action rifles. In those rifles, through the use of a $50 gage and proper die set up, I get about 10 reloads from a $0.50 piece of brass. How much will brass life be extended and how long will it take to reach break-even on a $1k annealer? My autoloaders seem to go through brass faster than my bolt actions but brass is a lot cheaper. I think losing brass is a bigger problem than case neck splits. Iconoclastic and curmudgeonly as ever, Trollslayer |
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The benefits of case neck annealing are supposed to be - extending brass life and accuracy increases due to uniformity of neck tension. Can anyone post any factual information which demonstrates either? Can anyone post group sizes with and without annealing case necks (all other things being held constant)? Can anyone post information showing case life with and without annealing case necks (all other things being held constant)? I ask these questions because I see a lot of people buying lots of "stuff" for reasons that lack a solid foundation and this troubles me. Yes, it's a hobby but hobbyists should not be exploited. I do not anneal and my reloads are NOT the limiting factor in my accuracy, I am. I am not a trained benchrest shooter and cannot seem to get below about 1/2 MOA on any consistent basis due to limitations of my hold and tripping the trigger. How much improvement will result from case neck annealing? I mostly shoot bolt action rifles. In those rifles, through the use of a $50 gage and proper die set up, I get about 10 reloads from a $0.50 piece of brass. How much will brass life be extended and how long will it take to reach break-even on a $1k annealer? My autoloaders seem to go through brass faster than my bolt actions but brass is a lot cheaper. I think losing brass is a bigger problem than case neck splits. Iconoclastic and curmudgeonly as ever, Trollslayer I actually asked this question to an older guy I know thats been shooting F class forever. He put it very simply to me. Either you let the brass get as hard as it can, as it can only get so work hardened to create a consistent neck tension until case neck failure. He figured that he runs 5 firings just to work harden his brass. The other side is you anneal every firing as even taking a single firing off will change the hardness and thus the neck tension which will effect accuracy. He also told me that powder charge does make a difference, but less than you would think as +/- a 10th of a grain makes no difference on a target even at a 1000 yards. He also stated that case prep such as primer pocket and flash hole uniformity is more important than most think. All I know, is that Im about the same as you. I shoot right around a 1/2" most of the time with my pet target loads, and Im pretty damn happy with that, so I dont screw with it much. If I wanted to consistently shoot in the 1/4" then I would have to step up my game, a better barrel and refine my loading technique even further. |
Do your research, been addressed many times including here that annealing extends useful case life and helps uniform neck tension -- not sure if anyone's addressed actual performance on-target.
Scorpius' annealing thread 
More stuff to make your head spin: 30-06 stat experiment |
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Giraud has an auto-annealer. I believe they have a flame version. The version with the induction annealer did not come to fruition because they had the same issues I did with the supplier.
http://www.giraudtool.com/annealer1.htm The thing you have to realize is the induction annealer is so fast (when it works) that you really don't need an automatic feeder. |
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I got the Giraud Annealing Machine because of its versatility
and it seemed to fill my needs where the others did not ( most had trouble with rimmed cases ) I have annealed 223, 308, 3006, 8mm Mauser, 7mm Mauser, 303, 7.62X54R, 6.5X55, 6X47,6.5X47, 6X51,6.5X51, 243, 270, 270 Mag.,30 cal.carbine, 44 mag., 45 long Colt, 3030, 50 BMG, 338 Lap. Mag., many Mag. calibers including belted cases I had 2000 to 3000 cases of each 223, 308 and 3006 all had 5 firings and all were degraded in accuracy and were starting to fail I ether purchased new cases, send them off to be annealed or get an annealing machine, cheapest rout was the machine I have purchased no cases in 3 years I now anneal after every firing ( my LC 3006 cases now have 15 firings my 308 Lapua cases have 25 firings I lost track of the number of firings on LC 223 ( over 10 firings )) When others found out I had the machine they started bring cases to be annealed The machine paid for itself in 6 months at $25.00 per 100 or $100.00 for 500 cases |
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Here are some factoids derived from the data in your graphs, above.
Average number of shots per case - 12.5 without any annealing, 13.9 when always annealing. Change in case life, always anneal versus never anneal - +11%. Annealed case losses exceed the loss not annealing until you have over 15 total firings on the brass. Only after that do you begin to accrue a case life benefit. None of the above considers the case loss rate associated with losing cases in the grass. I would estimate this to be about a 3% loss rate. Applying that process reduces the average case lives to 12.1 and 13.4. The cost difference for not annealing is only 0.4 to 0.9 cent per shot for Winchester and Lapua brass, respectively. Another loss process I've noticed - incipient case head separation results in retiring a batch of cases before the necks split. I don't wait until they split. While there are people who want to anneal, it is not for me. |
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*snip* Only after that do you begin to accrue a case life benefit. While there are people who want to anneal, it is not for me. I don't anneal primarily for case life, but it makes more consistent brass when sizing wildcats/ reforming for example. Case life is just a benefit. |
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I couldn't vote, because I don't need nor want one that feeds from a hopper...so I would pay $0 for one lol.
I own a bench source, which doesn't have a hopper ... and can set up and anneal 1000 brass in under an hour an a half. I prefer hand feeding and keeping a watchful eye on the process... I don't need or want to be able to walk away from it. If I was annealing 50,000 pieces a year.... I would prob look at it diff. I am more concerned about what kind of job it does, than if it has a hopper. All of that said.......while I love the Bench Source, I bot it a number of years ago and it was/is expensive.....and there were few other options at the time. The DIY guys have come a long way since then.....if I wanted one today....I would seriously consider building one Build One Don't want to hijack the thread with the does it help discussion.....except to say... I anneal my good stuff every cycle...and in my world it absolutely helps create consistent and REPEATABLE neck tension reload after reload (my reason for doing it) and brass life (a side benefit). I am certain that doing a good annealing job will make your reloads better ..... and doing a bad inconsistent annealing will actually make your groups grow. If someone doesn't believe that, no problem here.....that's what makes the world go round. happy new year. |
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