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Posted: 7/9/2013 7:39:52 PM EDT
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Some video we shot on the 4th of July.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcfqZFWpk9s TLDR version: Mini-14 would not work dirty no matter the lube used or dry. Adding oil got it running again. H |
| Big difference in weapons that you are comparing. When you dumped that much dirt on the AR, did you keep the dust cover open? Reason I ask is I have seen alot of so called "testing" on AR's and they always seem to leave the dust cover closed when throwing dirt on top. Throw that amount of dirt INSIDE a AR action like you did on the mini and it WILL fail. Anytime you introduce dirt or sand into moving metal parts, you will get failure. |
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Big difference in weapons that you are comparing. When you dumped that much dirt on the AR, did you keep the dust cover open? Reason I ask is I have seen alot of so called "testing" on AR's and they always seem to leave the dust cover closed when throwing dirt on top. Throw that amount of dirt INSIDE a AR action like you did on the mini and it WILL fail. Anytime you introduce dirt or sand into moving metal parts, you will get failure. The AUG worked w/o having any door and it has a very enclosed action. As far as the AR goes, I have a device on the AR that's designed to keep dirt out of the action that takes a couple seconds to use. And using this device is 'cheating'. If you knew you were going to be exposed to that much dust and didn't take steps to reduce the amount of grit that gets into the weapon you'd be a idiot. I suppose if I test an AK next time I'll be cheating if I don't remove the dust cover and wire the bolt open. H |
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The AUG worked w/o having any door and it has a very enclosed action. As far as the AR goes, I have a device on the AR that's designed to keep dirt out of the action that takes a couple seconds to use. And using this device is 'cheating'. If you knew you were going to be exposed to that much dust and didn't take steps to reduce the amount of grit that gets into the weapon you'd be a idiot. I suppose if I test an AK next time I'll be cheating if I don't remove the dust cover and wire the bolt open. H Quoted:
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Big difference in weapons that you are comparing. When you dumped that much dirt on the AR, did you keep the dust cover open? Reason I ask is I have seen alot of so called "testing" on AR's and they always seem to leave the dust cover closed when throwing dirt on top. Throw that amount of dirt INSIDE a AR action like you did on the mini and it WILL fail. Anytime you introduce dirt or sand into moving metal parts, you will get failure. The AUG worked w/o having any door and it has a very enclosed action. As far as the AR goes, I have a device on the AR that's designed to keep dirt out of the action that takes a couple seconds to use. And using this device is 'cheating'. If you knew you were going to be exposed to that much dust and didn't take steps to reduce the amount of grit that gets into the weapon you'd be a idiot. I suppose if I test an AK next time I'll be cheating if I don't remove the dust cover and wire the bolt open. H That's not the point. If you're testing the reliability of an action, you'd test them under the same conditions. Weigh out a certain amount of the same dirt, or what have you, and apply it to the action in the same manner to whatever you'd be testing. I have a garbage bag in my pocket at all times. I'll throw my Mini-14 in it because it only takes a couple seconds, and keeps all foreign objects out of the action. If you don't use it, you'd be an idiot. That's comparing apples to oranges. 
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The AUG worked w/o having any door and it has a very enclosed action. As far as the AR goes, I have a device on the AR that's designed to keep dirt out of the action that takes a couple seconds to use. And using this device is 'cheating'. If you knew you were going to be exposed to that much dust and didn't take steps to reduce the amount of grit that gets into the weapon you'd be a idiot. I suppose if I test an AK next time I'll be cheating if I don't remove the dust cover and wire the bolt open. H Quoted:
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Big difference in weapons that you are comparing. When you dumped that much dirt on the AR, did you keep the dust cover open? Reason I ask is I have seen alot of so called "testing" on AR's and they always seem to leave the dust cover closed when throwing dirt on top. Throw that amount of dirt INSIDE a AR action like you did on the mini and it WILL fail. Anytime you introduce dirt or sand into moving metal parts, you will get failure. The AUG worked w/o having any door and it has a very enclosed action. As far as the AR goes, I have a device on the AR that's designed to keep dirt out of the action that takes a couple seconds to use. And using this device is 'cheating'. If you knew you were going to be exposed to that much dust and didn't take steps to reduce the amount of grit that gets into the weapon you'd be a idiot. I suppose if I test an AK next time I'll be cheating if I don't remove the dust cover and wire the bolt open. H Well I guess you know everything so there is no sense in anyone posting in this thread |
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So the takeaway is that a Mini-14 is more reliable than an AR if:
1) The AR has the dust cover open. 2) The Mini doesn't actually get that dirty. 3) The Mini is the new 500 series. 4) The Mini is lubricated with some type of miracle lube. 5) You clean the dirt off the Mini before shooting it. H |
| I wasnt about to watch this video at 20 min. But if it is the same one talked about on the FL forums and PU forums, that mini had problems to start with. It wouldn't cycle with grease. A failure to extract on a gun that had dirt dumped on it with a chambered round where the extractor was all ready engaged tells me that gun had problems. I know a Mini 14 isn't the bestest gun ever but they fucking work. Dirty or not. |
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1) the Mini did have 2 FTEx when lubed with grease but not with oil. This isn't a result I was expecting but we didn't edit out that run or keep doing it again until we got a clean run with grease.
2) I, personally, wouldn't count the 2 FTEx during the grease run when dirty as necessarily be caused by dirt, since the rifle had problems clean. 3) the 7 failures to return to battery when greased are directly attributable to the added dust. 4) the rifle had no stoppages of any kind when oiled, so all 9 stoppages should be assigned to being caused by the added dust. 5) in each case, the number of stoppages the Mini-14 increased when dirt was added to the rifle. Oiled clean =0 stoppages, oiled dirty = 9 stoppages. Greased clean = 2 stoppages, greased dirty = 8 stoppages. Dry clean = 3 stoppages, dry dirty = 9 stoppages. 6) the AR and AUG experienced no stoppages either clean or dirty. 7) this was not intended as a Mini vs AR test. I included the AR because I was expecting people to claim that no rifle (ok, or maybe a AK) would be operable under the tested conditions. H |
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So, the ejection port door on the AR provides equivalent protection to wrapping a Mini-14 completely in a plastic bag? Interesting, I didn't know that. H Well that's what they did when the stormed the beaches of normandy!!! Anyways... My only criticism is that there could be any number of scenarios where your ejection port WOULD be open when getting all dirty on an AR. If one was engaged in a firefight and the weapon was knocked out of hand for some reason. Or shelling. (Obviously in a military type setting). If you weren't in a firefight, you could take the time to clear off the Mini a little better. But yes, there are a lot of bigger gaps that will allow in dirt on that action. For sure. It's funny though, it's not that much different than an M14 and they are known to be reliable. I think part of it is that taking a sifter and shaking dirt over a gun is a little different than if you dropped it in some mud. But, still a viable way to do it. That's pretty sweet about the Aug. But there is a criticism about that too. You cycled the action first before shooting. You didn't do that with either the Mini or the AR. And that could've gotten some of the cobwebs out. Although that looks like a pretty sweet design for dirt. Was that your mini? I was like, man, that's going to leave some marks on the action. |
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If the Mini had a standard feature to keep junk out of it, like a ejection port door I would have used that before dusting it. But it doesn't and I wanted to test the rifles in a standard configuration, not with aftermarket stuff bolted on that could impede performance.
Good catch on the AUG. That was the last run of the day and the truth is, I screwed up by not chambering a round before dusting it. I wanted a round in the bore and the muzzle taped on each run to keep grit out of the bore and I just messed up on the AUG. If you've seen the Guns & Ammo mud test with the M1A* you might be more skeptical of the design's ability to work with dirt in the action. My dust test was designed to eliminate two of the most common criticisms of that test: They didn't fire the rifle beforehand to demonstrate it worked. They also didn't grease the action, they used oil. The Mini I used wasn't mine. I borrowed it from a friend who knew exactly what I was going to do to it. He did get it back cleaner and less rusty than he lent it. There was no apparent wear on the operating parts, although I did recommend that he replace the recoil spring, extractor, and extractor spring. H * http://youtu.be/z0-3OQsnR-w |
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Look around and you will find even the M1 Garand jammed in combat. Jack Lucas - Rifle jams on Iwo Jima http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aGhPjeayJY "At his side (Andy) Carter cranked out two rounds at the Japs then cursed in helpless anger, his second rifle jammed. The Japs were coming. Two of them reached our foxhole. Carter snatched up a souvenir Jap rifle and I saw him stand up and impale a Jap on its bayonet." http://donmooreswartales.com/2010/07/02/william-harrell/ Walter Josefiak - "Engaging in hand-to-hand combat when his rifle jammed, he overpowered and killed the soldier before continuing his vigilant patrol." http://projects.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=42122 "The Lions of Iwo Jima," page 109: "His M1 rifle jammed, its receiver clogged with loose volcanic ash. He grabbed a carbine, but it, too, was jammed." books.google.com/books?id=lTXQjZTJZgsC&pg=PA109 Dale Hanson - "Reaching the crest of a ridge, he leaped across, opened fire on 6 Japanese and killed 4 before his rifle jammed." http://flgrube1.tripod.com/id194.html ALEJANDRO RUIZ - "When an enemy soldier charged him, his rifle jammed." http://flgrube1.tripod.com/id194.html |
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In the book "Flags or Our Fathers", by James Bradely, I remember specifically reading about a 1911 that jammed from there being too much caked on blood. On Iwo also. It must've been hell there.
Would an AR/M16 faired better? Not too sure about that. Maybe. We'll never know. Obviously Iraq is a pretty dusty place, but I've never been there. |
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In the book "Flags or Our Fathers", by James Bradely, I remember specifically reading about a 1911 that jammed from there being too much caked on blood. On Iwo also. It must've been hell there. Would an AR/M16 faired better? Not too sure about that. Maybe. We'll never know. Obviously Iraq is a pretty dusty place, but I've never been there. Are you referring to on Iwo Jima or in the original video I posted? H |
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Are you referring to on Iwo Jima or in the original video I posted? H Quoted:
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In the book "Flags or Our Fathers", by James Bradely, I remember specifically reading about a 1911 that jammed from there being too much caked on blood. On Iwo also. It must've been hell there. Would an AR/M16 faired better? Not too sure about that. Maybe. We'll never know. Obviously Iraq is a pretty dusty place, but I've never been there. Are you referring to on Iwo Jima or in the original video I posted? H How they would've faired on Iwo. No doubt it worked well on your test. And the ejection port door is obviously a good idea. But again, it's only closed before the first shot. |
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The seemingly "fair" method to test different rifles would be to lock and load, fire one round, then without playing around with the rifle, add the dirt. That way all rifles would be in firing-mode. Just remember it's a "hot" weapon; don't shoot your eye out.  That's pretty much what I'm proposing here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_52/405800_Mini_14_muddy___.html Just with mud this time instead of dust. H |
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