Quoted:
Already have the AR, just not something she is use to.  More technical than she wants to get into.

Not sure about the Trust.  Don't know any NFA lawyers and not sure about using Quicken WillMaker.  Seems to much room for error and legal issues.

Quoted:
Your first problem is picking a bird gun over an AR for Defense.

Quoted:
Does it work and keep everything legal, yes.   Trust is so easy, just make you, your wife, your kids, your brothers, sisters, parents, friends all trustees and then possession won't be an issue.

Legality is debatable with the clause that says items cannot be used etc. unless you plan to store all your NFA items and don't ever use them.

Regarding additional trustees, how exactly do you add them with quicken? Pencil them in after it prints out?

That is the downfall of quicken, it doesn't give much freedom on changing the trust. Its a basic, cheap trust and its as simple as that.

Quoted:


Please point me to any case or ATF ruling that says using it makes legality debateable.  If you have one, I would love to see it because neither I nor any other person I know of has ever seen such a thing.

ATF P-5300-5
609.67. Machine guns and short-barreled
shotguns.
Subdivision 1. Definitions.
(a) "Machine gun" means any firearm designed
to discharge, or capable of discharging
automatically more than once by a single function
of the trigger.
(b) "Shotgun" means a weapon designed, redesigned,
made or remade which is intended to
be fired from the shoulder and uses the energy
of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire
through a smooth bore either a number of ball
shot or a single projectile for each single pull of
the trigger.
(c) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun
having one or more barrels less than 18 inches
in length and any weapon made from a shotgun
if such weapon as modified has an overall length
less than 26 inches.
(d) "Trigger activator" means a removable
manual or power driven trigger activating device
constructed and designed so that, when attached
to a firearm, the rate at which the trigger
may be pulled increases and the rate of fire of
the firearm increases to that of a machine gun.
(e) "Machine gun conversion kit" means any
part or combination of parts designed and intended
for use in converting a weapon into a
machine gun, and any combination of parts from
which a machine gun can be assembled, but
does not include a spare or replacement part for
a machine gun that is possessed lawfully under
section 609.67, subdivision 3.
Subd. 2. Acts prohibited. Except as otherwise
provided herein, whoever owns, possesses,
or operates a machine gun, any trigger activator
or machine gun conversion kit, or a shortbarreled
shotgun may be sentenced to imprisonment
for not more than five years or to payment
of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.
Subd. 3. Uses permitted. The following persons
may own or possess a machine gun or
short-barreled shotgun provided the provisions
of subdivision 4 are complied with:
(1) law enforcement officers for use in the
course of their duties;
(2) chief executive officers of correctional
facilities and other personnel thereof authorized
by them and persons in charge of other institutions
for the retention of persons convicted or
accused of crime, for use in the course of their
duties;
(3) persons possessing machine guns or
short-barreled shotguns which, although designed
as weapons, have been determined by
the superintendent of the bureau of criminal apprehension
or the superintendent's delegate by
reason of the date of manufacture, value, design
or other characteristics to be primarily collector's
items, relics, museum pieces or objects of curiosity,
ornaments or keepsakes, and are not likely
to be used as weapons;
(4) manufacturers of ammunition who possess
and use machine guns for the sole purpose
of testing ammunition manufactured for sale to
federal and state agencies or political subdivisions;
(5) dealers and manufacturers who are federally
licensed to buy and sell, or manufacture machine
guns or short-barreled shotguns and who
either use the machine guns or short-barreled
shotguns in peace officer training under courses
approved by the board of peace officer standards
and training, or are engaged in the sale of
machine guns or short-barreled shotguns to federal
and state agencies or political subdivisions;
and
(6) persons employed by the Minnesota
National Guard as security guards, for use in
accordance with applicable federal military
regulations.
Subd. 4. Report

Quoted:


Please point me to any case or ATF ruling that says using it makes legality debateable.  If you have one, I would love to see it because neither I nor any other person I know of has ever seen such a thing.  That would be like saying if there is a peice of properrty held in a trust that doesn't havwe a "use" clause it would be illegal to use the land.  That is just nonsense legally.  If anything (and this is a strech) there might be civil implications if a trustee knowing lowered the value of a trust asset (such as by using it), but the only person who could bring this suit would be the grantor (i.e. you, the creator of the trust) and you wouldn't bring such a suit agaist yourself or your wife for using plus the civil penelty would only be the lowered value asset and there is little to know difference in the value of a new SBS and a used one.  Again this is civil not criminal and would NEVER happen in the situation he describes above.  

The grantor (sometimes called the settelor) is free to change and amend the trust as he likes.  That is the beauity of the revokable living trust.  Also here is how you add trustees to a Quicken trust, it is really hard, Open Word and type something like this this on a blank peice of paper (and this is a bit overly legal, but you get the idea):

"FIRST AMENDMENT TO THE MICKEY MOUSE TRUST

I Mickey Mouse, as grantor of the Mickey Mouse Trust, do hereby amend the Mickey Mouse Trust to allow the following person to serve as trustees of the Trust:

Donald Duck
Minnie Mouse
Pluto Dog

This amendment takes effect immeditaly and the trustees are granted all powers as set forth in the origional trust document."

/s/ Mickey Mouse
1/14/2010"

Some states might require you to notorize it, but many states (like Texas) don't.  The end, you have three new trustees and before you ask you do not have to notify the BATFE of the change.   Not that hard in my opinion.

I wasn't talking about the ATF. The ATF doesn't care what your trust says as long as it is a legal entity. As you said, it is a civil matter, but it isn't only the grantor that can bring suit. If the trust says that the trustees may not use items, or must not decrease their value etc. anybody related to the trust or its assets could file a civil suit. That means beneficiaries can file suit if they wish. Yes, it is a small detail, but that is just one example of how the quicken trusts fall short.

Personally, I don't care what you say about trusts. There is a very clear divided line along those that feel a lawyer is the best way to go, and those that only wish to spend $20 to protect assets worth thousands. You won't convince me and I won't convince you. I was only posting to inform the OP of the benefits and advantages.

Quoted:

You say you were"t talking about the ATF but your quote about says "legality is debatable."  Legality is not debatable.  They are 100% legal and using and possessing them is legal from a criminal standpoint.   And benefitaries can't file a suit unless the trust is paying out.  In a revokable trust the grantor can change the benefitary at any time for any reason.  And even assuming they could sue in a civil suit how much would be at stake $100 bucks?  I mean the difference in value or an unfired SBS and one with 100 rounds through it is maybe $100.  And again this would be such a rare occurance it is hardly worth mentioning.    I am not saving Willmaker is perfectly suited for NFA, but it works just fine in 99.99999% of situations, especally those were a husband just wants his wife or kids to be able to possess the NFA item.

Using a lawyer is great it you truely have "thousands" in assets.  But with a silencer, SBS or SBR that are only worth $1000 (give or take) it is just not that worth the cost.

Quoted:
Why are we talking about Minn?  But in any case, in Minn you can have C&R SBS's.

From what I've heard, the NFA branch has found issues with trusts (from willmaker or that bubba's gun shop drafted up) and is now looking more deeply into the trust documentation before approving the tax stamp. If the ATF found an issue with my trust, i have an attorney that will back the documentation and make sure that the document is correct. With Quicken WillMaker, I have no one to fall back on...

99.99999% of the times? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Quoted:


Please point me to a real world situation where it hasn't been sufficient.