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Posted: 3/1/2016 11:32:17 PM EDT
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Shamelessly stolen from FB: The NFATCA filed a FOIA request in 2014 in order to ascertain an updated count of registered machine guns in the NFRTR. The initial FOIA request was rejected. The NFATCA appealed and acknowledged that because of the disparate record types, we understood that a margin of error might exist. DOJ/ATF has acted on our appeal and delivered on their promise to provide the statistics. As of February 24, 2016: Pre '86: 175,977 Sales Samples: 17,020 Restricted 922(o) ("posties"): 297,667 From ATF: "Please note that ATF utilizes customized Standard Query Language (SQL) to collect information from system databases. In the instant case, an SQL query may not capture all methods in which the requested information has been manually entered into system data fields. Thus, while each individual record is accurate, there is an inherent albeit wholly unintentional margin of error as to the aggregate statistical information requested." |
| On a posting on Subguns in August, 2007, per the ATF's Ken Houchens, at that time there were 182,619 fully transferable machineguns. What happened to the 6,642 that have disappeared since then? I know about 30 were rescinded because of the MAC-to-other shenanigans. |
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Quoted: On a posting on Subguns in August, 2007, per the ATF's Ken Houchens, at that time there were 182,619 fully transferable machineguns. What happened to the 6,642 that have disappeared since then? I know about 30 were rescinded because of the MAC-to-other shenanigans. Stolen, lost, seized, destroyed, you name it. |
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Stolen, lost, seized, destroyed, you name it. Quoted:
Quoted:
On a posting on Subguns in August, 2007, per the ATF's Ken Houchens, at that time there were 182,619 fully transferable machineguns. What happened to the 6,642 that have disappeared since then? I know about 30 were rescinded because of the MAC-to-other shenanigans. Stolen, lost, seized, destroyed, you name it. As I think about it more, I'm guessing that quite a lot of the reduction in the overall total is that because the Registry used to be all on paper, a pretty large number of the 6,642 reductions were guns that were double papered. That is, registered in the 1934 and onward time frame, but then re-registered again, mostly likely in the 1968 Amnesty. I believe that some police departments may have done this when their 1934 registration couldn't be located in 1968, but they wanted to make sure that their machine guns were registered. As the BATFE went to computerizing their files, the double registrations were caught and winnowed down to a single registration of the one gun. Also, I'm not at all sure that lost or stolen guns would be removed from the Registry. What happens if they were to be found or recovered? MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Are "Sales Samples" what we call pre-may? https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1720/25440818345_165195da8f_o.png Yes. |
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On a posting on Subguns in August, 2007, per the ATF's Ken Houchens, at that time there were 182,619 fully transferable machineguns. What happened to the 6,642 that have disappeared since then? I know about 30 were rescinded because of the MAC-to-other shenanigans. Lots have been destroyed by LE. For instance, the City of Detroit had -- can't remember the exact number right now, but IIRC it was more than 1,000 -- NIB M16s "donated" to them when GM's Hydramatic division shut down production after their single USGI contract. When Detroit went through bankruptcy, they needed to close down the warehouse where they were stored (to save the city money), so they chipped the entire guns -- didn't even sell them as parts kits. That's the antigun political thinking that mandates LE destroy transferable MGs. Sigh. 
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The way I interpret this thread:
https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=23&t=404319 the number of Detroit Hydra-Matic M16s was about 300, and per the post by FrankSPPD all had been destroyed prior to 2003. Assuming (which knowing Detroit City management is an admittedly iffy thing to do) that the BATFE was notified of said destruction, the Detroit M16s shouldn't be in the 2007 total of 182,619 regardless of how many there were. In any case, it could well be that the more recent BATFE efforts to rationalize their records did indeed identify the destroyed Detroit M16s and remove them from the Registry, And that assumes that said M16s were registered as transferable, not Form 10 transfers. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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The way I interpret this thread: https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=23&t=404319 the number of Detroit Hydra-Matic M16s was about 300, and per the post by FrankSPPD all had been destroyed prior to 2003. Assuming (which knowing Detroit City management is an admittedly iffy thing to do) that the BATFE was notified of said destruction, the Detroit M16s shouldn't be in the 2007 total of 182,619 regardless of how many there were. In any case, it could well be that the more recent BATFE efforts to rationalize their records did indeed identify the destroyed Detroit M16s and remove them from the Registry, And that assumes that said M16s were registered as transferable, not Form 10 transfers. MHO, YMMV, etc. As far as what form they were on, Detroit acquired then many decades earlier ... from my fading memory, if the Form 10 even existed back then, it was not in common use. As far as the PD destroying them prior to 2003 and still being counted in a 2007 total: Given the disorganization of both city management and BATFE, that would not surprise me in the least. Spending the time to notify the feds, and ATF spending the time to update the Registry about destroyed MGs, is most probably the last, lowest item on either parties' priority list. An internet acquaintance in Miami when I lived down there had a 9-mil SM Colt M16A1 that was less than a hundred away from mine in SN, and he asked me about values because he was thinking about selling it. Before I could get back to him, several dirtbags drove a 4x4 up to his front door, broke it down, wrapped a chain around his safe and drove off down the road, safe bouncing behind. The Colt M16A1 was among several MGs inside. He never saw them again. He dutifully reported everything to local LE, ATF and his insurance company. Are those MGs still in the Registry? Who knows? Back in the late 1980's/early '90's, ATF had to discipline several NFA Branch examiners for approving forms, then shredding the ATF copies rather than spending the time to update the Registry. This in turn led to several lawfully possessed, transferable MGs being seized by ATF and destroyed (Nappy Napolitano in Alaska lost a very nice MP40, for instance). ATF finally admitted their error but the transferables were gone forever. Was the Registry ever corrected? There are documented instances of WWII bringbacks that are still listed in the Registry in the names of the GIs who brought them back. How many are still alive? How many died, and their heirs -- not realizing they were legal -- tossed them in a river or lake? How many living WWII vets do you know, from among the 16 million who served (well, only 70% of them served abroad, but you get the idea)? BATFE can tell you how many transferable MGs are in the Registry. But that is a vast difference from the number of actual transferables that are out there today. And don't get me started on the countless MGs in museums, or the folks like Reed Knight who have thousands of transferables with no intention of ever selling. The reality is that less than 100,000 transferable MGs will ever appear on the market in my, or your, lifetime. Of course, Your Mileage May Vary. 
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As far as what form they were on, Detroit acquired then many decades earlier ... from my fading memory, if the Form 10 even existed back then, it was not in common use. As far as the PD destroying them prior to 2003 and still being counted in a 2007 total: Given the disorganization of both city management and BATFE, that would not surprise me in the least. Spending the time to notify the feds, and ATF spending the time to update the Registry about destroyed MGs, is most probably the last, lowest item on either parties' priority list. An internet acquaintance in Miami when I lived down there had a 9-mil SM Colt M16A1 that was less than a hundred away from mine in SN, and he asked me about values because he was thinking about selling it. Before I could get back to him, several dirtbags drove a 4x4 up to his front door, broke it down, wrapped a chain around his safe and drove off down the road, safe bouncing behind. The Colt M16A1 was among several MGs inside. He never saw them again. He dutifully reported everything to local LE, ATF and his insurance company. Are those MGs still in the Registry? Who knows? Back in the late 1980's/early '90's, ATF had to discipline several NFA Branch examiners for approving forms, then shredding the ATF copies rather than spending the time to update the Registry. This in turn led to several lawfully possessed, transferable MGs being seized by ATF and destroyed (Nappy Napolitano in Alaska lost a very nice MP40, for instance). ATF finally admitted their error but the transferables were gone forever. Was the Registry ever corrected? There are documented instances of WWII bringbacks that are still listed in the Registry in the names of the GIs who brought them back. How many are still alive? How many died, and their heirs -- not realizing they were legal -- tossed them in a river or lake? How many living WWII vets do you know, from among the 16 million who served (well, only 70% of them served abroad, but you get the idea)? BATFE can tell you how many transferable MGs are in the Registry. But that is a vast difference from the number of actual transferables that are out there today. And don't get me started on the countless MGs in museums, or the folks like Reed Knight who have thousands of transferables with no intention of ever selling. The reality is that less than 100,000 transferable MGs will ever appear on the market in my, or your, lifetime. Of course, Your Mileage May Vary. Quoted:
Quoted:
The way I interpret this thread: https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=23&t=404319 the number of Detroit Hydra-Matic M16s was about 300, and per the post by FrankSPPD all had been destroyed prior to 2003. Assuming (which knowing Detroit City management is an admittedly iffy thing to do) that the BATFE was notified of said destruction, the Detroit M16s shouldn't be in the 2007 total of 182,619 regardless of how many there were. In any case, it could well be that the more recent BATFE efforts to rationalize their records did indeed identify the destroyed Detroit M16s and remove them from the Registry, And that assumes that said M16s were registered as transferable, not Form 10 transfers. MHO, YMMV, etc. As far as what form they were on, Detroit acquired then many decades earlier ... from my fading memory, if the Form 10 even existed back then, it was not in common use. As far as the PD destroying them prior to 2003 and still being counted in a 2007 total: Given the disorganization of both city management and BATFE, that would not surprise me in the least. Spending the time to notify the feds, and ATF spending the time to update the Registry about destroyed MGs, is most probably the last, lowest item on either parties' priority list. An internet acquaintance in Miami when I lived down there had a 9-mil SM Colt M16A1 that was less than a hundred away from mine in SN, and he asked me about values because he was thinking about selling it. Before I could get back to him, several dirtbags drove a 4x4 up to his front door, broke it down, wrapped a chain around his safe and drove off down the road, safe bouncing behind. The Colt M16A1 was among several MGs inside. He never saw them again. He dutifully reported everything to local LE, ATF and his insurance company. Are those MGs still in the Registry? Who knows? Back in the late 1980's/early '90's, ATF had to discipline several NFA Branch examiners for approving forms, then shredding the ATF copies rather than spending the time to update the Registry. This in turn led to several lawfully possessed, transferable MGs being seized by ATF and destroyed (Nappy Napolitano in Alaska lost a very nice MP40, for instance). ATF finally admitted their error but the transferables were gone forever. Was the Registry ever corrected? There are documented instances of WWII bringbacks that are still listed in the Registry in the names of the GIs who brought them back. How many are still alive? How many died, and their heirs -- not realizing they were legal -- tossed them in a river or lake? How many living WWII vets do you know, from among the 16 million who served (well, only 70% of them served abroad, but you get the idea)? BATFE can tell you how many transferable MGs are in the Registry. But that is a vast difference from the number of actual transferables that are out there today. And don't get me started on the countless MGs in museums, or the folks like Reed Knight who have thousands of transferables with no intention of ever selling. The reality is that less than 100,000 transferable MGs will ever appear on the market in my, or your, lifetime. Of course, Your Mileage May Vary. You could honestly probably say that less than 10,000 different ones will be for sale in your or my lifetime. Many newer buyers, like me, are never going to sell them until we're dead, which will hopefully be in a long time. |
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Quoted: Back in the late 1980's/early '90's, ATF had to discipline several NFA Branch examiners for approving forms, then shredding the ATF copies rather than spending the time to update the Registry. This in turn led to several lawfully possessed, transferable MGs being seized by ATF and destroyed (Nappy Napolitano in Alaska lost a very nice MP40, for instance). ATF finally admitted their error but the transferables were gone forever. Was the Registry ever corrected? And don't get me started on the countless MGs in museums, or the folks like Reed Knight who have thousands of transferables with no intention of ever selling. Where can I get more info about these seized/destroyed transferables you mention? Did the owners have their approved forms? What would there be to correct in the NFRTR if the guns were never entered/updated properly and subsequently destroyed? What does it take for museums to possess MGs? Can they receive those which are not typically transferable? Can the employees shoot them occasionally? |
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Where can I get more info about these seized/destroyed transferables you mention? I don't know. I just remember the owners/SOTs' posts when it happened. Did the owners have their approved forms? Yes. ATF said they must be forged. By the time they were forensically authenticated, ATF had already destroyed the MGs. What would there be to correct in the NFRTR if the guns were never entered/updated properly and subsequently destroyed? There are still many, many MGs (and other NFA) for which the approved forms were shredded instead of being entered into the Registry; thus, a computer check would show that the current owner has no legal right to possess them. What does it take for museums to possess MGs? They must have an approved form. Can they receive those which are not typically transferable? If the museum is .gov-approved, it can have post-samples -- and also may acquire unregistered MGs via a Form 10. Can the employees shoot them occasionally? That question is above my pay grade. Quoted:
Quoted:
Back in the late 1980's/early '90's, ATF had to discipline several NFA Branch examiners for approving forms, then shredding the ATF copies rather than spending the time to update the Registry. This in turn led to several lawfully possessed, transferable MGs being seized by ATF and destroyed (Nappy Napolitano in Alaska lost a very nice MP40, for instance). ATF finally admitted their error but the transferables were gone forever. Was the Registry ever corrected? And don't get me started on the countless MGs in museums, or the folks like Reed Knight who have thousands of transferables with no intention of ever selling. Where can I get more info about these seized/destroyed transferables you mention? I don't know. I just remember the owners/SOTs' posts when it happened. Did the owners have their approved forms? Yes. ATF said they must be forged. By the time they were forensically authenticated, ATF had already destroyed the MGs. What would there be to correct in the NFRTR if the guns were never entered/updated properly and subsequently destroyed? There are still many, many MGs (and other NFA) for which the approved forms were shredded instead of being entered into the Registry; thus, a computer check would show that the current owner has no legal right to possess them. What does it take for museums to possess MGs? They must have an approved form. Can they receive those which are not typically transferable? If the museum is .gov-approved, it can have post-samples -- and also may acquire unregistered MGs via a Form 10. Can the employees shoot them occasionally? That question is above my pay grade. |
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Interesting, thanks. Did any of the former owners sue for damages? If these were shredded transfers, why wouldn't ATF approach the transferor regarding ownership? A claim of forgery would indicate they still considered it lawfully registered to the previous owner, would it not? |
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You guys are basing the loss of MGs with the belief the NFRTR is even accurate...
See this article written by my boss: Violating Due Process: Convictions Based on the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record when its "Files are Missing" |
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Interesting, thanks. Did any of the former owners sue for damages? If these were shredded transfers, why wouldn't ATF approach the transferor regarding ownership? A claim of forgery would indicate they still considered it lawfully registered to the previous owner, would it not? In the case I'm most familiar with, the owner was an FFL/SOT in Alaska. During a routine annual compliance check, he had an MP40 logged into inventory that was not on ATF's list of NFA items registered to him. I wasn't present, of course, so I don't know exactly how it went down, but they took possession of the MP40. It was later destroyed, before ATF admitted the form was genuine. He did not sue. At the time, the MG was worth maybe $3k ... and, IIRC, there were no attorneys in Alaska able to help him. The cost of hiring a distant lawyer was just too much, so he wrote it off as a business loss. You have to remember that for more than a half-century, the Registry was a set of filing cabinets in ATF's basement, stuffed with paper forms, maintained by entry-level federal employees. When they finally got computers, they tried to enter in everything but a lot did not make the transition. If an item was missed during data entry or incorrectly entered, it would not show up. Then when the item later got transferred, if the transfer form was shredded instead of entered in the computer database, there literally was no record of it. ATF has admitted in Congressional testimony that (a) the Registry is not accurate, (b) they have no idea to what degree it is inaccurate, but that (c) it may only be 80% accurate. It is a total mess. Congress has in recent years budgeted a lot of money to get it corrected ... but there still is quite a ways to go. Your Mileage May Vary.
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Lots have been destroyed by LE. For instance, the City of Detroit had -- can't remember the exact number right now, but IIRC it was more than 1,000 -- NIB M16s "donated" to them when GM's Hydramatic division shut down production after their single USGI contract. When Detroit went through bankruptcy, they needed to close down the warehouse where they were stored (to save the city money), so they chipped the entire guns -- didn't even sell them as parts kits. That's the antigun political thinking that mandates LE destroy transferable MGs. Sigh. Quoted:
Quoted:
On a posting on Subguns in August, 2007, per the ATF's Ken Houchens, at that time there were 182,619 fully transferable machineguns. What happened to the 6,642 that have disappeared since then? I know about 30 were rescinded because of the MAC-to-other shenanigans. Lots have been destroyed by LE. For instance, the City of Detroit had -- can't remember the exact number right now, but IIRC it was more than 1,000 -- NIB M16s "donated" to them when GM's Hydramatic division shut down production after their single USGI contract. When Detroit went through bankruptcy, they needed to close down the warehouse where they were stored (to save the city money), so they chipped the entire guns -- didn't even sell them as parts kits. That's the antigun political thinking that mandates LE destroy transferable MGs. Sigh. ah bro I just puked |
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