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Posted: 3/12/2009 10:16:14 AM EDT
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Does anyone know about the legality of shoulder fired rockets WITHOUT explosives?
I was thinking of producing some model rockets to fit the M72 LAW, primer fired and all. It would return via parachute just like toy model rockets. If I can get it done right, and reasonably cheap, I may consider selling them if there is enough interest. They would be reusable, just put in a new model rocket motor available at all hobby shops, replace the primer and quickmatch, and voila. |
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1. LAW trainers are legal, and no registration is required.
2. Using model rocket engines in a device that fires them next to your head is a very bad idea. Ever see a D12 CATO? It's like a 1/4 stick on the launch pad. They recommend being at least 50' away for a reason, when you launch model rockets, and it is not so you don't get hit with it... |
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Quoted: 1. LAW trainers are legal, and no registration is required. 2. Using model rocket engines in a device that fires them next to your head is a very bad idea. Ever see a D12 CATO? It's like a 1/4 stick on the launch pad. They recommend being at least 50' away for a reason, when you launch model rockets, and it is not so you don't get hit with it... Yeah you do that. The first malfunction and we will be seeing you on the "smoking gun" videos. grog18b is right. When Pyro goes bad it's usually real bad. The burns are extreme and life altering and the motors cannot be put out as the have their own fuel and are designed not to stop till expended. Then there is the risk from "hot fallout" spewed into the users face. It goes on and on. |
| I've never had a problem with estes engines. the larger ones from other companies such as G cato very easily, and I would never even think about using them in such a device. estes engines usually dont have as hot a trail as the others too. I was thinking of using D engines, but apparently they can cato. I'll look into it more. |
| We had a model rocketry class in Junior High school. Perhaps engines have changed since then, but we all used Estes engines. I believe they were in the A-C range. There were about 15 of us in the class. We had 2 CATO on the pads when we had our launch day... Just an FYI. Perhaps you should go to a Model Rocketry forum, and discuss your intentions there. They would have boucoup more info than us vets here. GROG |
I once started to make a model rocket with a nose cone and fins fabricated out of tin cans. Then someone told me that it was not lawful to make a model rocket out of metal. This is just an assumption but.. I imagine crossing the FAA or FCC, or whoever regulates things being launched into the sky, would be like crossing the BATFE.. Chances are that the rocket isn't as long as the pecker that will be up your ass for the next 10 years if you do what you are proposing. 
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I believe you can use metal if you have a proper rocketry license. I was planning on going the normal paper, plastic and wood route.
After looking it over, a C should do just fine. The fuel grain in these is very small, and the LAW tube is made of aluminum and fiberglass, not to mention there is plenty of room for the expanding gas to exit in BOTH directions. I guess the best way to test this is by plugging a few C engines up so that they cato effectively and setting them off in a LAW tube. (At a safe distance of course.) Modern pyros use fiberglass mortar tubes, with very big lift charges. They hold up better than anything else. I would much rather trust a new small estes C engine than those big, OLD, METAL subcaliber rockets. Not to mention model rocket engines are cheaper. 
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Quoted:
After looking it over, a C should do just fine. The fuel grain in these is very small, and the LAW tube is made of aluminum and fiberglass, not to mention there is plenty of room for the expanding gas to exit in BOTH directions. I guess the best way to test this is by plugging a few C engines up so that they cato effectively and setting them off in a LAW tube. (At a safe distance of course.) Modern pyros use fiberglass mortar tubes, with very big lift charges. They hold up better than anything else. CATO EFFECTIVELY Hmmm Oxymoron? Catastrophe effectively Yep a LAW is a simple fiberglass tube - However the original payload & motor are an Aluminum rocket with a venturi and propellant specifically designed to vent the gasses to the rear. While still having enough velocity to get to the target. PYRO's do use fiberglass mortar tubes - that are surrounded by SAND... You might want to think about reading a couple books about the Bazooka and the Panzerfaust. Then read about WHY they used STEEL tubes... Good Luck - Be Smart & try not to get hurt or hurt others... -Will |
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I could be mistaken, but I believe that the LAW and similar rockets completely burn the motor/fuel inside the launch tube.
I think that the model rocket motors have a longer burn time. With the longer burn time, they would be lit as they exit the tube. I would worry about the shooter's face getting burned by this. |
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Quoted:
I could be mistaken, but I believe that the LAW and similar rockets completely burn the motor/fuel inside the launch tube. I think that the model rocket motors have a longer burn time. With the longer burn time, they would be lit as they exit the tube. I would worry about the shooter's face getting burned by this. Bingo! We have a winner! The LAW rocket gets its impulse from the short burn inside the tube. RPG's does the same, until 11 meters out, when the main rocket motor fires. Ever wonder why some launchers have a face shield attached? buckmeister |
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I had a friend that made a "LAW" and he used a 12gau shell to boost it out of the tube before igniting the rocket motor. He cut the shot part off and drilled a hole for the cannon fuse to poke back into the powder charge through the wad and into the venturi of the rocket engine. It would light @ 15-20ft out of the tube. He devise a spring loaded trigger and barrel with 2 safeties to keep from killing himself. He had a fin stabilized Nerf for a projectile. It was pretty sweet, he could shoot the Nerf @ 500yds with a string on the end (he called it a signaling line??). Of course this was like 20 something years ago and he was 16 with too much time on his hands. IIRC now he works for Lockheed Martin or something like that making real rockets.
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I always used estees motors too. I never had one fail (about 45 shot/launched)
My friend came over to launch his rockets and had the same brand but tree in a row went boom!! we were only 15 feet away and it blew pieces past us. come to find out hs dad kept his motors put away in a cabnet over the stove. excessive heat changed everything. do you know where and how your supplier has stored all of the motors? If the rocket has more then a 1/4 pound propellent it is a DD. We did make a hand fired rocket launch pad. plexiglass three leg launch pad with two broken legs did not look pretty but shot small rockets across the pasture. (during winter all was wet) I would say steel tube and blast sheild. is a goo start begin with the little a&b motors. put and m-80 in the tube lite and run inspect for damage. |
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Quoted:
If the rocket has more then a 1/4 pound propellent it is a DD. Not true. Many amateur rocket engines use considerably more propellant. You may be confusing this with the rules for explosives. If an EXPLOSIVE device has more than 1/4 ounce of explosive, it's a Destructive Device. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
If the rocket has more then a 1/4 pound propellent it is a DD. Not true. Many amateur rocket engines use considerably more propellant. You may be confusing this with the rules for explosives. If an EXPLOSIVE device has more than 1/4 ounce of explosive, it's a Destructive Device. Yes true. The rule is 1/4oz explosive for projectile OR 1/4lb of propellant if a rocket. There might be some exemptions for larger rocket motors for hobby use. |
| The issue now is that the ATF has made the Rocketry hobby ALOT more difficult. The smaller Estes black powder motors are easy to come by, but due to the way Ammonium Perchlorate has become regulated by the ATF, you now have to have a low explosives handling permit in order to purchase, store, or use. Before, as long as it was under an "H" class motor, anyone could purchase them. Now, you have to jump through the hoops to get a permit |
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Uh, guys, the restriction on model rocket engine propellants was negated by a court case almost a year ago. See here to watch the epic follow-up to that case.
You may need a permit to buy/handle that much, but there is no restriction on how much can be used in a rocket engine. |
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quite a few years ago i watched a behind the scenes look at how they made the movie "Red Dawn". the RPGs they shot were model rocket engine driven....however, IIRC, they ran them down a small wire to ensure they went where desired. i would imagine the blast from the model rocket engine in the face is why the actors are squinting and turning their heads away in the scenes when firing the RPGs.
advntrjnky |
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Quoted:
quite a few years ago i watched a behind the scenes look at how they made the movie "Red Dawn". the RPGs they shot were model rocket engine driven....however, IIRC, they ran them down a small wire to ensure they went where desired. i would imagine the blast from the model rocket engine in the face is why the actors are squinting and turning their heads away in the scenes when firing the RPGs. advntrjnky They do something similar at JRTC @ Fort Polk for the RPG simulators. First time I saw one, I was NOT expecting it to come as close to me as it did! 
Very cool effect though. |
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