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Posted: 7/1/2020 2:43:47 AM EDT
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After wanting one for years I finally put down the cash today for one. Stainless 10" supressed with lever selector. (S&H sear installed in John Norrell pack). The dealer who sold me my first suppressors and uzi machine gun had this. He said he bought several over the years from John when he would turn some loose each year. My dealer said he ran a mag through it just to make sure it would run then put it up. I could shine a flashlight down the barrel and the baffles were still nice and shiny and the internals were like new. I do want to set up another 10/22 with just a regular barrel so I'm not always wearing out the suppressor when it's not needed. Anything in particular I need to know about these? I do have about a 10 -12 page instruction booklet that John sent with the gun. Attached File |
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While John is still alive, I would consider getting whatever replacement parts are available. I know at least a few years ago you could get a spare weighted bolt from him. That doesn't appear to be one of John's suppressed barrels. As I recollect, his were full length and were ported to drop velocity. His also were stuffed with brass eyelets. https://molyresin.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2012-03-01-Suppressor-cleaning-instructions.pdf Those are neat guns, congrats. |
Awesome machine gun!!!
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I have a Norrell pattern full auto 10/22 as well. Mine is based off a stainless AMT lightning receiver with a registered trigger frame.
It is one of my favorite machineguns and goes to the range with me all the time. Overall they use primarily either unmodified or modified semi Ruger 10/22 parts. There are only a few parts that are made from scratch. Off the top of my head, the full auto parts are: Full Auto Sear and sear spring <- Custom Part Anti Bounce Plunger and Spring <- Custom parts Selector <- Custom Part (you appear to have the button selector vs. the lever selector) Trigger <- Modified semi trigger Hammer <- Modified semi hammer Bolt <- Highly customized/modified 10/22 bolt Ejector <- Modified factory ejector and a basic custom spring Trigger Frame <- Modified semi frame drill for auto sear and anti-bounce plunger Overall most of the parts (except the registered sear) can easily be made from modding factory semi parts by any competent gunsmith. The bolt isn't super complicated but does take a decent amount of labor to make one. Ultimately I wouldn't worry about having a ton of spare parts. Jon is still around and will service the guns he converted but I am not sure what he will outright sell as spare parts. i.e. I am not sure if he will sell you a spare modified trigger, bolt, etc. The weakest part of the design IMHO is the full auto bolt due to the large cutout for the anti-bounce weight and the sharp 90 degree stress riser at the back of the pocket. There is a history of reports of owners having the bolt crack under extended use. So if there is one part you may want to see about getting as a spare, I would suggest a spare bolt if Jon will sell you one. I ended up making myself (and another friend here in town with a Norrell) a custom bolt that is stronger than Jon's original design and also uses a tungsten anti-bounce weight to slow the ROF. My suggestions: - Buy a shit ton of CCI MiniMags. I personally prefer the 40gr round nose variety. They are the most consistent in terms of loading and also run a lot cleaning that cheap bulk pack. In stock form at 1300+ RPM they chew through ammo quick. Get a 5000rd case to start as they will get you about 3 minutes and change of trigger time. - Good magazines are a must and I find the Tactical Innovation Aluminum Mags to be the best and most reliable although the polymer ones are great as well. The aluminum ones are hard to find right now as they have been discontinued for some time but Tactical Inc still sells the Polymer ones in kit form and you will have to buy rob the feed lips out of Butler Creek mags. TIs supplier of feed lips in China went out of business or something of that nature leaving them with piles of bodies, followers, and springs but no feed lips. https://www.tacticalinc.com/catalog/product/09092 BX25s work OK as well but don't work with the best loader out there. (See below) - A McFadden Lightning Loader is a must have accessory. https://www.mcfaden.com/McFadden-Machine-Lightnin-Grip-Loader-s/1828.htm - BlackDog 50rd Drums (These are the only drums I know that work reliably in full auto) http://blackdogmachinellc.net/drum-10-22-50rd.aspx - Maybe grab some spare hammer springs, extractor springs,extractors, and recoil springs as these parts do wear out. I personally like the KIDD parts over all the others with the exception of the Tactical Inc recoil rod as it makes swapping recoil spring much easier. - You may want to contact Jon about changing from the button to the lever selector as it will give you more flexibility to run a pistol grip stock as the button is really better suited for traditional rifle stocks where the lever work with both traditional rifle and pistol grip stocks. Also in case you don't know, there is a allen head screw on the bottom of the trigger frame by the mag release that adjusts the anti-bounce detent. This needs to be adjusted tight enough for the detent to engage the cutout on the bolt but not too tight or it will bind the bolt into the top of the receiver causing reliability issue. Congrats on your purchase they are a barrel of fun. My 10/22 
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Quoted: While John is still alive, I would consider getting whatever replacement parts are available. I know at least a few years ago you could get a spare weighted bolt from him. That doesn't appear to be one of John's suppressed barrels. As I recollect, his were full length and were ported to drop velocity. His also were stuffed with brass eyelets. https://molyresin.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2012-03-01-Suppressor-cleaning-instructions.pdf Those are neat guns, congrats. I have a 12" Norrell Silencer. It is heavily ported and had the original eylets. |
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It has the lever, it's just hard to see in the photo. I shot the gun and took it apart to look at the sear. I was off by an inch on the suppressor, it is an 11" and is made by Norrell. A neat thing my dealer told me is that John would use the date he made it as the serial number and if he made multiple ones, he would just put a -01, -02 etc after it. Mine was made in February 1996. He SBR'd the 10/22 as well. Yeah, 3 stamps so the gun could have a regular pack in it and not get someone in trouble. My dealer had John do that for all of the 10/22's that he bought from him. I do plan on buying another bolt from Norrell for the other 10/22 I want to swap the pack to. I have been stacking 22LR deep for the past 15 years. CCI Mini-Mag RN and I have a ton of Winchester that is packed in the clear trays that look just like the mini-mag trays. That stuff always worked in finicky guns. I'll certainly experiment to see what it likes. I told my boss to get me 10 BX-25 mags today for starters. The posty that my dealer has mounted on his 3-wheeler has an old Choate folding stock. I like that one shown above. I'll have to check that one out. Delta-10 |
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Sounds like you are well on your way.
My AMT receiver is an SBR as well as it makes it convenient to remove the pack and bolt. For an extra $200 stamp its totally worth it to not have the pack/sear married to the gun. However, I have found over the years, that I don't ever really remove the pack and bolt from the AMT receiver all that much and just run the config in the picture with the exception of adding removing a thread on can. The guy I shoot with here in town who also has a Norrell gun as it set up with a Norrell integral barrel (he doesnt move his pack/bolt around much either) Overall, I think you will be pretty happy with the integral suppressed barrel. My stock is a standard Choate Folder plastic front end (cut down) and the Choate hinge but I made the metal stock portion back half from scratch and welded it to the hinge after cutting off the old hoop style stock. |
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I haven't seen another one of these pop-up for months and then I look on Frank's board and damned if he doesn't have one listed and of course sold. Yeah on this one I honestly didn't know if it was a registered pack or a seer until I went to see it. And of course my dealer is old as hell and he couldn't remember how they were done. Not that it matters because I I was going to buy it either way. When he said it was in that green stock from the 90s I immediately fell for it because that's what my first 10/22 was and I've still got it |
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Pictured below is my old Norrell setup. It was a registered receiver AMT Lightning. It was my first MG around 2000 or so. The bolt on mine broke and I had contacted Norrell back then and I bought a replacement bolt from him. He kept great records and noted that it was originally converted using the TEK system and he converted it to his system. I had this during the 1994 - 2004 AWB and was relying on pre-ban Eagle or Butler Creek mags that were very expensive back then. I ended up selling it to fund an M16. My logic back then was that I could get a Ciener kit using 30 round steel mags so why bother with the Norrell....especially when my Norrell had tactical look...like it is trying to look like an M16 so might as well get an M16 with more flexibility for other calibers etc. Same mag fed capacity back then and today still matched using 50 round BDM drums in both platforms. However, I also have the LM7 for a belt fed 22LR setup for my M16. I was also concerned about the single source for parts for the Norrell setup. Sure you can get the parts made but compared to the Ciener kit back then, I could easily just get complete kits. Fast forward to today and now there are several sources that have made Atchisson style kits. To me, I think the Norrell shines in a 'sleeper' setup like what you are getting in a wood stock.  |
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I do not own one but sold one to a client when I was a SOT. Here’s what my client has told me: 1. Buy spare parts from John Norrell. 2. Test your gun with different types of ammo, but expect CCI mini mags to work best. 3. Test your gun with different magazines. He said that the steel lips ones were the best, preference to the Tactical Solutions mags. Go ahead and set your credit card on fire; buy at least a dozen spares plus some mags to use. 4. Always bring a cleaning kit to the range, especially when shooting suppressed. .22 ammo is filthy and a dirty gun jams that much more quickly. 5. If you question gun control efforts and what may happen in November, lay in a bunch of inexpensive spare receivers. |
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Quoted: After wanting one for years I finally put down the cash today for one. Stainless 10" supressed with lever selector. (S&H sear installed in John Norrell pack). https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/121176/20200630_182144_jpg-1484665.JPG What do these things sell for? Someone wanted to sell me one out of an estate this morning, and I had no idea on value. They were asking $20K, which seems nuts to me, but I have never looked twice at one and have no reference point. |
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Quoted: What do these things sell for? Someone wanted to sell me one out of an estate this morning, and I had no idea on value. They were asking $20K, which seems nuts to me, but I have never looked twice at one and have no reference point. Frank sold a Norrell conversion gun, registered trigger pack, with a suppressor, in a basic wood stock setup a couple weeks back for $16K and it went pretty quick. These guns during peak MG pricing a couple years back seemed to start touching $20K in pricetag, but my personal take is that $20K in today's market is "Ruben" pricing. I have no doubt Ruben could sell clean Norrell pattern 10/22s with a registered sear or pack for $20K without too much trouble. |
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Quoted: What do these things sell for? Someone wanted to sell me one out of an estate this morning, and I had no idea on value. They were asking $20K, which seems nuts to me, but I have never looked twice at one and have no reference point. A friend offered me his about 5 years ago for 12K........ After spending an afternoon at his range shooting it, along with a bunch of other FA, I decided I really wasnt interested. Approx 90% of the time shooting it was spent loading mags and clearing light strikes If someone could figure out a way to get the ROF below 700-750 rpm's, one would be near the top of my wish list. Solid tungsten bolt and anti-bounce weight anyone??? |
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I spent a sizeable amount of time figuring out how to slowing down down the ROF. I ultimately got it down from a native 1300ish rpm to about 950rpm.
There are a bunch of things you can play with to slow the ROF but the main things are the bolt weight (including the charging handle), the recoil spring, the anti-bounce detent pressure, and the hammer spring. Most all of these come with pros/cons in terms of ROF reduction and reliability. My personal take is that 700 to 750 rpm just isn't possible in a 10/22 with a standard mechanical trip/firing system given the small amount of bolt travel in the receiver. (Maybe some sort of electronically delayed solenoid fired unit could get there). The challenge is that by the time you get the ROF that slow (assuming you even could) the reliability is going to be really poor and the ROF will become choppy and erratic. My personal gun will shoot Federal AE subsonic "suppressor" ammo without a suppressor at an even slower rate but the ROF becomes erratic. My guess is that when you get to the lower end of the functional limit, the random position of the antibounce weight in the bolt during the initial firing sequence combined with small variations in powder charge can result in an uneven ROF as you go through the mag. Its not really noticeable if you are shooting small bursts but dump a mag and you can feel the cyclic rate go up and down. If you put too much weight on the bolt you will induce malfunctions as 22LR only has so much omph to push the bolt back. If you lighten the recoil spring too much to compensate for the heavier bolt you end up with failure to feed malfunction as the system doesnt have enough power to strip rounds from the magazine or bolt bounce as you have to lighten the anti-bounce detent so much to reduce drag that it becomes non-functional. My first proto tungsten slowfire bolt wouldn't function reliably unless you added a suppressor for additional backpressure as the bolt weighed too much. I also dealt with bolt breakage issues due to the weight. I ultimately settled on a lighter (and stronger) tungsten slowfire bolt. I paired it with a 10% reduced power recoil spring, an extra power hammer spring, and a custom bolt handle that has a tungsten insert that can be added/removed if you were running a suppressor or not. - The first proto slowfire bolt I made was ~8.2oz in weight. - My current tungsten slowfire bolt is 7.5oz and I can add 0.2oz of tungsten to the system to bring the mass up to 7.7oz when running a suppressor. - For reference standard 10/22 bolts weigh between 6.2oz and 6.4oz depending upon the manufacturer with the cast Ruger OEM bolts on the lower side. - The original Norrell bolt that came with my gun was 5.6oz (you lose mass as the bolt is cut for the anti-bounce weight and the anti-bounce weight doesnt add all the mass back as it needs room to move) If they are set up right they run with almost boring reliability. However, a lightning loader, quality ammo (minimags), and good mags are highly recommended. Original Norrell bolt in the back, the first proto I made in the middle, and the milled tungsten AB weight sitting in the foreground. (On the proto you can see how thin the web of material is that is left after being cut for an anti-bounce weight, along with sharp 90 degree stress riser as the back of the pocket supporting a sizeable anti-bounce weight which is why they can crack over time. Attached File My current design with a fully enclosed anti-bounce weight pocket, so you have a full web of material all along the bottom of the bolt which supports the back edge of the bolt. Attached File Attached File |
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Congrats on scoring a Norrell pack & can! You'll get years of enjoyment from it. Years ago when I had my SOT John released a few packs and I went for it. Sent him one of the fancier 10-22s available at the time (checkered stock) to install the full length can in and of course the pack. I alternate between the suppressed set up and a standard unsuppressed 10-22. The pack lives in the unsuppressed gun most of the time though. These things seem to run like little sewing machines and it's doubtful this one will leave my collection until I pass on. Would also agree with the tips and comments above. CCI Mini Mags seems to be the ticket for me on ammo and stock up on steel lip mags if you haven't already. The Tac Innovations mags are great, both types, if you can find them. The Butler Creek steel lips mags are my go to when not using my Tac Innovations mags. And keep the gun as clean as you can, 22lr is filthy, and especially so when you start dumping a bunch of it down range in a single morning LOL. Have fun!! |
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Quoted: A friend offered me his about 5 years ago for 12K........ After spending an afternoon at his range shooting it, along with a bunch of other FA, I decided I really wasnt interested. Approx 90% of the time shooting it was spent loading mags and clearing light strikes If someone could figure out a way to get the ROF below 700-750 rpm's, one would be near the top of my wish list. Solid tungsten bolt and anti-bounce weight anyone??? LOL, mirrors my best case experience with a Lage 22 kit on an M11/9... Worst case, clearing jams every 5 rounds. Put a franklin binary on an M&P15-22 and never bothered to use the Lage 22 kit again. Runs way better at a decent ROF and way easier to load mags. feels like 99% of a machine gun, esp when not clearing out light strikes and jams all the time. Or is the latter an essential part of the machine gun experience in rimfire? Curious to pay $15k plus for a rimfire machine gun so you use cheap ammo. I need to save money so I am going to pay 2-3x the price of a MAC. Although given the current price of 9mm it might make sense. |
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Quoted:
Curious to pay $15k plus for a rimfire machine gun so you use cheap ammo. I need to save money so I am going to pay 2-3x the price of a MAC. Although given the current price of 9mm it might make sense. I think my Norrell 10/22 was somewhere around formal machinegun number 18 to 20 but effectively with different hosts for my sear based machinegun was really like machinegun number 30 something. At this point I have found myself looking for more "specialization" and guns that fit a specific niche/role, have some cool history to them, some nostalgia, etc. vs. a gun or sear I can configure half a dozen different ways. I also already had an M11 with a 22 kit, an M16 with a Ceiner kit, another M16 I could use with a AM15 upper, a 22 kit for my AC556K. I honestly found all of these machineguns with their 22 kits lacking in one way or another. Either reliability was an issue, parts or mags were a challenge to source, pain to swap 22lr dedicated parts around, time consuming to load mags or drums (no good loader available), etc. If you love 10/22s (like I have my whole life) than what's not to like about a 10/22 that also has a giggle switch. Sometimes its fun to just plink with a gun that is light and easy to handle, has zero recoil, virtually no noise suppressed, etc. and its a bonus it pretty cheap to feed. Basically all the same attributes that people love about normal semi-auto 22s but with an added bonus of full auto capable. My only complaint was that the ROF was too high. So is a 10/22 a good first machinegun for somebody looking for flexibility? probably not the best option. I would recommend getting an M16, HK Sear, M11 first. Is it a smart economics play to save money? probably not either. You could probably by a Dillon and components for 100K+ worth of 9mm or under normal conditions 50K+ worth of factory ammo for the $15K Norrell acquisition cost. That said, if you have a dozen different machineguns already and are tired of swapping parts around or are fed up with cantankerous reliability of conversion kits and are looking for IMHO the gold standard of 22lr machineguns, I would wholly endorse picking one up. I personally know of two other folks with Norrell 10/22s and both of their guns run with boring reliability as well. However as with any 22lr I suspect some guns may not set up right or don't have the right combo of ammo, springs, etc. as 22lr machineguns don't have a whole lot of margin if something is off and I suspect the Norrell 10/22 isn't an exception to that rule. |
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.22LR full auto ROFs below 1,000 RPM with reliable operation are pretty much impossible to achieve without other compromises. Back around 2013 or so a guy (IIRC, on UziTalk) had an M16 with a heavily modified Ciener .22LR conversion that he had doing in the 800s. But he had to use CCI MiniMag, 40 gr., round nose, copper wash ammo; he had to use a light hammer spring; and he had to use a spring loaded detent to implement anti-bounce as one of the mods was welding weight to the back of the bolt. My own experiments at low ROF with an Uzi .22LR conversion had very limited success due to mag issues. Reliably feeding mags generally need higher spring force to overcome the internal friction of the follower and the full load of ammo, but the higher spring force also causes greater drag on the bolt during the feed process. I could only get reliable feed with two of the 20 round mags and none of the 25 round mags I have; and the slow ROF just wasn't worth it with the limited mag capacity. Note - I dry lube all of my .22LR mags, whether for semi or full auto use, with graphite to reduce follower drag. So now I embrace my inner .22LR buzz gunnery. MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well. |
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Quoted: While John is still alive, I would consider getting whatever replacement parts are available. I know at least a few years ago you could get a spare weighted bolt from him. That doesn't appear to be one of John's suppressed barrels. As I recollect, his were full length and were ported to drop velocity. His also were stuffed with brass eyelets. https://molyresin.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2012-03-01-Suppressor-cleaning-instructions.pdf Those are neat guns, congrats. I would send it off to have him sign it |
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