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Posted: 7/6/2008 1:32:36 PM EDT
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I am getting more and more frustrated with my STG....my groups are 6 to 8" and I am about to sell it.... I am use to .75 MOD from my AR's....now I know the FAL is not a precision rifle, but damn, I should expect 2" MOA at least.... Is there anyone out there that good with taking my STG, trigger job, maybe barrel change, tweak it some... I heard about a 'smith in Texas? that is good with FAL's, name? Thanks, Richard |
www.vandenbergcustom.com/Content/Rifles/FALs/Page.html |
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The rifle is brand new, less than 200 rounds.....I am shooting off of sand bags, not using the bi-pod....I am shooting Winchester 150 grain, SXT..... I can shoot a few good groups....and then they go to hell... I have new Trijicon TA 11E, LaRue mount, checked all to make sure they are tight.... I am atarting to re-think my purchase, especially when I canceled my RRA .308 to buy this rifle. Will keep you posted.... 77 |
Didn't quite say whether or not the bipod was still attached. If so, remove it. Shoot with irons, the scope and mount might appear to be tight, but who knows. FALs aren't exactly the best platform for optics. Is it mostly vertical stringing? FAL's in infamous for this, as the gradually reduced pressure of the rounds in the mag against the bolt/bolt carrier can effect the POI because of the way the bolt locks. Try shooting groups, single loading the gun. |
| Mine does the same thing with about everything I feed it...Maybe a little better! I would try shooting some Federal Gold Medal Match through it. Made all the difference in the world...Like your's mine was on the way out till I shot the FGMM, Now money cant buy it! With good glass it will easily shoot less than an inch at 100yd's. And with mine It doesnt matter if the bi-pod is on or not (Not deployed) or if you load one at a time or a mag full(5 rounder havent tried with a 20)...Just be sure and keep the front bag as close to the reciever as possible. |
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I checked the website and was surprised to see that the current DSA STG-58s use a new barrel. Neither of my two are very old and both have the original barrel from the parts kit. Still, expecting 2 MOA out of a FAL without some kind of accurizing work, even with a new barrel, is a bit of a stretch. FALs are generally 3 MOAish rifles, some closer to 4 MOA, and some might to better, but most won't. This is speaking of military configuration type FALs, not necessarily the improved types DSA sells with medcon barrels or free float tubes. If you're going for precision rifle type accuracy, you may want to look at a bull barrel or even one of DSA's Izzy-style HBs and a free float tube. Even then, you may not get what you're looking for. I really love the FAL and am quite fond of it, and I do believe that they can be made to be very accurate rifles, but out of the box you really can't expect AR-type accuracy, and there's just no way to get the accuracy you would get out of an AR with a nice barrel and a free-floated forend. One thing you may try is match ammo, but with regular 'x51 running fifty cents a round, who can afford that? (without handloading, that is  ) Even then I don't think you'll get less than 2.5ish MOA with a 10 shot group.That said, I think accuracy is overrated.  What I mean by that is that 2 or 3 MOA is good enough for what 90%+ of real life situations will actually call for. For a "combat" rifle, I'd be thrilled with 2 MOA and satisfied with 3 MOA. |
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Well, I know the FAL is a battle rifle and asking fom MOA is out of the question, but I was shooting 9" MOA and all over the map.....some shots would group OK, then walk all over the map....I even had two 14" apart.... Something is not right....now I will say this, until I made a move on the ACOG, the shots were somewhat OK, after the ACOG move, all hell broke loose.... I called Vandenberg Custom today, left a message, no reply back today....what do yall know about them? I maybe thinking too far ahead, but I want an accurate rifle.... I have a of money invested....the rifle was $1100, the ACOG was $1100, the FAL scope mount....$100, 30 mags.... Will let you know when I hear from Vandenburg |
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What type of scope mount are you using? With a Nikon 4x, weaver rings and ARMS mount I have seen 1.5 to 2 MOA with my all Imbel FAL using Winchester 150 gr Silver Tip. My FAL is a stock military issue configuration FAL with chrome lined 21" barrel. Yet quite accurate, for a battle rifle, when fed good ammo and using an optic. The STG58 barrel your FAL has should be pretty decent. Are you using a DSA mount? If so, are the screws to the locking plates secured with Locktite? How bad is the trigger pull on yours? I say you should sand bag it on a bench and shoot for groups with the irons only first and then re-install the ACOG and see what happens. Good luck, EMSflyer |
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I am using a LaRue LT-100 mount for ACOG's....mounted to the DSA extreme duty mount, screws tighten with loctite, to torque spec for the size....shooting off of sand bags, the trigger pull is marginal, not like my Timney and RRA 2 stage triggers on my AR's..... Now when I purchased the FAL, my vision was a well proven design, short 3X optic, knowing more power than that would not be the best way to go....decent accuracy, maybe some customizing I am not the best shot in the world, but I do feel I need to do more investigating... BTW: Thanks for all of the feedback.... What I am going to do is go to the range with three or four types of ammo this weekend.....see what happens.. I have one more question, do you think the first round out of a magazine is a flyer....I have heard this before, but I cannot think of enough variables to make this hold validity? 77 |
That says it all. You have an issue with your mounting system. I'm not a big fan of "claw" type mounts. |
| 77Bronc, dont feel too bad about it. I also have a DSA built STG which has horrible accuracy. Dont know why (Its not me....really!). Headspace is great, barrel is great trigger pull has been cleaned up by my so its nice and crisp, but still, itsa all over the target at 100yds. My M1As have been known to put holes in holes at 100yds. I think it mught be the bipod, so I hear. |
| Fellas:The StG58 bipod is NOT an accuracy enhancement device. It is there to provide realitve stability during full auto fire. The bipod makes the barrel flex while you are shooting. That is fine for laying down volumes of lead on an area target under combat conditions. But for slow, aimed fire, it is a disaster. Get rid of those silly things or at the least, put them on only for dispaly purposes and take them off when you go shooting. |
+1....The factory bi-pod raised my POI by about 12" when I tried it one day. Took it off and it's in a box in the closet. If I'm shooting for groups or re-zeroing an optic I just go prone and rest on some sandbags or range bag. Prone makes for better and more consistant eye position (for me) than using a bench. I Had to prove this to my son on Thursday when he was shooting crappy groups trying to zero his new EoTech. Once he got off the bench and got prone his groups improved 100%. Maybe you should give that a try as well. EMSflyer |
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Update: Went to the range this morning and brought three brands of ammo with me: Winchester 150 gr PP, Federal/American Eagle, 150 gr FMJ and Remmington 150 grain soft tip.... Started at 25 yards, shooting 1/2" groups....moved out to 50 yards, shooting 1/2" to 3/4" groups... Out to 100 yards, groups opened to 2", which is not bad, had best results with the Federal FMJ, the Winchester had groups of 3.5" So I will stay the course, go back next weekend with more Federal ammo and fine tune. 77 |
other than ammo, what did you change to get these results? |
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I took my time, sand bagged real well.....shot without wind gust....I am still not happy especially when the guy next to me was shooting .5" groups with his DPMS .308... I know the STG is not a pin point tack driver...and is really intended for one thing only....but I fully expect consistent 1.5" or less..... I am going to order some Black Hills .308, and give that a try.. 77 |
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I took my time, sand bagged real well.....shot without wind gust....I am still not happy especially when the guy next to me was shooting .5" groups with his DPMS .308... I know the STG is not a pin point tack driver...and is really intended for one thing only....but I fully expect consistent 1.5" or less..... I am going to order some Black Hills .308, and give that a try.. 77 |
That is not a realistic expectation from an FNFAL with a Milsurp barrel and no free float tube. That AR10 may produce exceptional accuracy from a bench, but it will never be a trusted battle rifle. Your FN will give you years of faithful service under less than optimum conditions. If you want a tack drivin' range queen, then an FN is not suitable. If you want a tough, reliable, combat accurate battle rifle, there is none better than what you have. |
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Just a thought, next range trip, turn your gas plug to the G position. Turns the rifle into a singleshot, manually operated rifle. Fire a round, eject the spent case and lock the bolt to the rear, then take a break and let the barrel cool. Fire another round and repeat the process. It's time comsuming. Takes out most of the mechanical "noise" in the firing process. Bypasses the gas system completely. Eliminates the gas piston travel. No moving parts except for the fire control group. Might be a way to esses the situation. Not my procedure, had someone splains it to me. |
Exactly. There's just no way you're going to get that kind of accuracy out of an STG-58...even with a brand new barrel. It's a battle rifle. No off-the-shelf battle rifle is going to give you that kind of accuracy with off-the-shelf ammo. Maybe with a 3 shot group, but we know those are meaningless. I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, I'm just trying to save you a lot of hassle and heartache. Your expectations are simply wholly unrealisitic. Even then you still may not get what you want, though. I'd like to build a "precision FAL" someday but that's just because I'm a HUGE fan of the platform, but I understand I'm NOT going to get AR-15 or bolt-gun accuracy and I may be throwing money into a pit, but it would be fun just to see what the platform is capable of. I guess what I'm saying is that it's fine to persue when you're doing it just for the hell of it, but there are better platforms out there if you're COUNTING on getting better accuracy. If you really want to persue precision accuracy with a FAL, you've got to at least free-float it, use a heavy barrel so you have enough rigidity to keep the piston from causing the barrel to whip around. With a piston operated rifle, the gas pressure pushes forward on the gas block as hard as the gas pushes the piston to the rear. This causes the barrel to deflect downward and spring back. |
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The FAL is the free worlds AK counterpart. Unless you buy a specially tricked FAL, I don't understand why people bench thier FAL's. Somewhere along the way, this underground notion got started that all 7.62 NATO MBR's are really accurate. This is hardly the case for rack-grade examples. 2 MOA is pretty good for a rack grade FAL or G3, considering that NATO calls 4 MOA perfectly acceptible. And for combat, 4 MOA is certainly adequate. Shooting an FAL for groups is as absurd as doing the same with an AK, IMO. FAL's are known to suffer from stringing and shot to shot variance. For example, 3 shots might be in .75 of an inch circle, while the 4th shot might be .5" away. Due to the operational mechanics, this is very much the nature of some FAL's and may or may not be avoidible. Be cognisant of this when you are measuring your group sizes.... 6-8 MOA is unacceptible but .75 MOA from a STG58 is unreasonable. 4 MOA is a good expectation for your rifle. |
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Hebrew, French, Chris and Wyno.... I agree....This is a great rifle, and I may be expecting too much....I will say this, if the SHTF, this is one I will grab.... I will continue to shoot it and learn it....it is a great rifle, built like a tank..... Thanks for the input. Richard |
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My DSA STG (w/original Steyr bbl) best I can remember can do 3-4 moa - but then again I was never expertly trained, so I know I could do better with this rifle. What I do know for sure is that in a pinch and I could do some real serious damage with this FAL and won't let me down with just about any .308 ammo I put in it. They are tough beasts yet they are beautiful. But a marksman's range rifle they are not - just are they were NOT intended to be. So I concur with the other posters here that the FAL is probably the best modern battle rifle ever designed. I actually like them to not be tackdrivers. That way I can learn to really shoot like a rifleman in the field, not just some recreational shooter popping dimes from a comfy bench in the shade. |
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May I suggest eliminating one variable: the shooter, not implying you are a bad shot, the "fit" between weapon and individual may intriduce another variable. Ever shoot someone elses weapon better than tjeir owner? Another suggestion would be to check the "cheekweld" when using optics. Good Luck ACK FWIW, my STG58 on certain days gives my M1A (loaded model) a run for its money= I can shoot it better than the M1A on that day. |
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OK, Update.....I tried a few things today at the range, started and stayed at 50 yards and used Remmingtin 150 grain.... Used an Aimpoint from one of my AR's, and in sighting in, I was hitting 3/4" groups at 50 yds.....Don't ask me? I also tried one suggestion above, put the gas system on "Gr", so the system wil not cycle....that did not make much difference... What happened, I concentrated, realized I am not shooting a prarie dog rifle, but the best combat rifle....took my time, concentrated on the squeeze, tried to eliminate "me" out of the variables.....and BTW, the Aimpoint is staying on the STG!!!! 77 |
That's very impressive, and exceptional accuracy for any FAL! How many shots in those groups? Looks like you found some ammo that your gun really likes.
Glad you found something that works. I'd like to put a short-medium range optic on my STG-58CP (16" BBL + Para sidefolder). I'm thinking about an EOtech at this time. |
Aimpoint + FAL = Win That's my set up at the moment... |
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So after my last post I went to the safe and got out the FAL to fiddle with it while I was waiting on a phone call. I turned on the Aimpoint but the dot was dimmer than normal on the highest setting. Took the spare battery out of the pistol grip, installed it and back in business with full brightness. I guess the point of this is that the battery had been in service for well over a year and a half with the Aimpoint on one of the medium settings, 3 clicks down from full brightness. Just prior to the recent re-installing of this Aimpoint on my FAL, it was on the AR that stays by the side of the bed and was left turned on 24/7. My Aimpoint is an M2 and I understand the newer ones have a crazy long battery life. Anyway, this is a really good optic for the FAL. Very tough, always holds zero, quick to point, good in low light and...looks right on an FAL in my opinion. Easy center of mass hits at 200yds on a USPSA target, so don't really need any magnification. Every FAL owner should try one. My 2 cents, EMSflyer |
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Thanks for the feedback.... I just left my work shop cleaning the STG from yesterday and I am really excited about the Aimpoint...in fact I am going to order a ML3 tomorow to replace on the AR, more than likely get the ML3/LaRue combo set up, price seems reasonable. I will go back to the range this weekend, start at 75 yards and try to end up sight on at 100 yards.. I put the caliper to the target from yesterday and the 3/4" is actually between 3/4 and 7/8, anyway, that is still good for me... The group was a five shot string.... This is a great rifle!!! Packs a punch, and I know will do the job.... |
I would send that trigger towww.triggerwork.net $39 and 5-7 days and you have a new rifle! (For how it shoots:) |
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I have an STG kit metric FAL built on an Imbel receiver with the DSA scope mount and a Tasco Super Sniper scope which is a pretty good scope. With the right (and expensive) hunting ammo, my FAL has grouped 1 MOA. I have the target to prove it. I have shot it off a sandbag without using the bipod. With mil surp ammo, the groups open up, up to 4 MOA |
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Another range update with the Aimpoint on the FAL.... I was shooting 3" groups with the AP at 100 yards, I am satisfied with that accuracy... 10 shots in 13 seconds at the 10" metal plate, all hits, so I feel I got what the rifle is intended for....hard hitting, battle rifle.... The AP will stay, the ammo it seems to like is the Remington 150 grain, and the mags are all surplus mags, all function great... So my set up is complete... 77Bronc |
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Now that it's shooting good you may want to consider adding a few things to make it handle a little better.... I like the DSA extended semi auto selector switch as well as the wide bolt release and an Izzy mag release lever. Some folks like the SAW grip on their FAL, not for me really. Glad you got your FAL shooting right! EMSflyer |
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