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Posted: 4/18/2012 12:22:44 PM EDT
| Ok. I understand the whole working up a load thing. I have been reloading for a while now and pretty much say within the guidelines. I just recently however got back into shooting a rifle regularly. I am not anywhere near a great shot. I worked up a load of the 62gr pull downs I got but when I shoot them I cant tell much of a difference in accuracy. I am sure most of it is the shooter. I cant even seem to get a decent group out of my AR at 50 yards with a Nikon P-223 3x9. I need more practice and plan on taking a few courses. Until then, I would like to continue to reload my rounds for the AR. I really am just looking for practice ammo and blasting rounds. I understand that part of the purpose of working up a load is looking for overpressure signs. Is there anyway that I can load up some moderately accurate ammo or should I just shoot commercial stuff until I get better with my skills. |
| I would shoot the best ammo you can while you are learning so when you are making improvements in your shooting yo see them right away. This is what I did and was suprised because as I continue to grow I can shoot a group with crappy ammo and the group is not that nice. Then I wonder it it is me, the gun or what. Then I switch back to some of my "match grade" ammo and the groups tighten up. If you have a 1 moa gun with one moa ammo and shoot 3 moa it's most likely the shooter who is not performing. |
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You should shoot good bullets. The first requirement before there is any hope of accuracy is shooting good bullets through good barrels. A good barrel requires a round bore, uniform rifling, a concentric chamber and throat, and a good crown. A good bullet ain't pulled down from surplus ammunition. Shooting cheap ammunition in a middling rifle is one thing, but it won't help you become a better shot, you'll never be able to sort out if a bad shot was caused by you, the rifle, or the environment. The very best of the very best equipment and ammunition isn't required to get really good accuracy, but fine accuracy will cost a little more. |
| I understand what everyone is stating. The reality is I just used the 62gr pull downs as an example. I have shot Hornady 55 gr FMJBT, FMJ, and the V-max. When I had the red dot on I could hit a plastic tub of tannerite on the first shot and really get a decent group going with the red dot. Since I have switched to the P-223, its almost like I forgot how to shoot. Groups are sporadic to say the least. It shouldnt be the gun either. The gun is a new build. It is a Spikes 16" upper, midlength gas with Spikes Lower. The trigger sucks ass but the rest of the gun is quality and it shot great before I started trying to get real precise with a riflescope. With all the above mentioned bullets, I couldnt get one quality 3 shot group (pathetic, I know). I'm never going to be a world record holder, but for gods sake, Id like to hit the damn bulls at 50 yards more than once out of 3x9 variable scope. |
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Are you sure the scope mounts and such are tight ? Everything is tight. Used the supplied allen keys and leveled the scope and ensured that the mounts and scope rings were both tight. Not sure what the hell is going on. I even call when I know I shot a flyer, but even the good ones are jumping all over the place. |
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I understand what everyone is stating. The reality is I just used the 62gr pull downs as an example. I have shot Hornady 55 gr FMJBT, FMJ, and the V-max. When I had the red dot on I could hit a plastic tub of tannerite on the first shot and really get a decent group going with the red dot. Since I have switched to the P-223, its almost like I forgot how to shoot. Groups are sporadic to say the least. It shouldnt be the gun either. The gun is a new build. It is a Spikes 16" upper, midlength gas with Spikes Lower. The trigger sucks ass but the rest of the gun is quality and it shot great before I started trying to get real precise with a riflescope. With all the above mentioned bullets, I couldnt get one quality 3 shot group (pathetic, I know). I'm never going to be a world record holder, but for gods sake, Id like to hit the damn bulls at 50 yards more than once out of 3x9 variable scope. As with anything else, if everything is working good, and then you change something, and it all goes bad, that something you changed is the culprit. The scope is likely your problem. Most likely an internal error with it, and not the mounts. Take it off and go back to the red dot and see if things improve, and if they do, you know it's the scope. You could also try someone elses scope and see how you do with it. |
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I'm not knocking Nikon but I have read around these forums that the first batch of P-223's had some problems. Well not the batch but a few people had the same complaint as you, it could have been you. One guy said the reticle fell out. Here's one:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/569384_P_223_Troubles.html I thought I saw another one but cant find it. Wait it is you, so you got the new one and it still shoots like that? Huh...check barrel or FH. Check barrel for proper twist, maybe you got a bad barrel. Pick up a box of Black Hills ammo, I've read some great stuff about it. If you can't hit anything with that you know you have a problem. And when you say sporadic what do you mean? 10 shots 1 on 2'x2' target or all around the bullseye? With M855 or SS109 you will have a lot of target wondering. I believe the accuracy of those bullets is 2 MOA, I think. Which means you could be as much as 4 inches apart, shot to shot. I'm not saying they can't shoot better (or worse). If you are reloading try the SMK's or A(V)-Max. Some guns are picky. |
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Other than the pull down ammo I am pretty certain one of the issues your having is from scope parallax. Find out what the optimum distance for no parallax is with your scope. parallax is the movement of the target behind the reticle in relation to movement of your eye. This is set to 100 yards on most fix parallax scopes. Inside 100 yards a fixed cheek weld and consistent sight picture will reduce this effect.
eta: googled your scope fixed parallax of 100 yards. shoot at 100 or work on your cheek weld sight pic. |
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If I read it right all your groups today were with the pulled bullets.
Pulled bullets can be quite deformed. Hell even combloc new not pulled bullets can be atrocious. I measured some Bulgarian ball 7.62x54r that was .309 in one direction and another measurement taken at 90 degrees was .311 diameter. That stuff shoots terrible and yours may be just that badly distorted. |
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If I read it right all your groups today were with the pulled bullets. Pulled bullets can be quite deformed. Hell even combloc new not pulled bullets can be atrocious. I measured some Bulgarian ball 7.62x54r that was .309 in one direction and another measurement taken at 90 degrees was .311 diameter. That stuff shoots terrible and yours may be just that badly distorted. Thats was just some of the rounds I had shot. I started with 55gr Hornady FMJBT. Then went to 55gr V-max. Finished on the 62gr, And yes....I was the guy with the issue with a P-223. It was confirmed when 5 different people shot it. I havent had anyone else shoot it but I guess I should. I find it hard to believe that I would get 2 fouled scopes from Nikon. If I tried to get out to 100 yards, I may never find paper. I started at 25 and got it on paper. It is so inconsistent at 50 that I would be afraid to think of even trying 100 yards. When I say inconsistent, here is an example of the group I am shooting at 50......1st shot - 3" left center, 2nd 4" left anbd 2" up, 3rd 3" left and 3" up, 4th 2" low and 1" left, 5th is dead nuts bullseye |
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If I read it right all your groups today were with the pulled bullets. Pulled bullets can be quite deformed. Hell even combloc new not pulled bullets can be atrocious. I measured some Bulgarian ball 7.62x54r that was .309 in one direction and another measurement taken at 90 degrees was .311 diameter. That stuff shoots terrible and yours may be just that badly distorted. Thats was just some of the rounds I had shot. I started with 55gr Hornady FMJBT. Then went to 55gr V-max. Finished on the 62gr, And yes....I was the guy with the issue with a P-223. It was confirmed when 5 different people shot it. I havent had anyone else shoot it but I guess I should. I find it hard to believe that I would get 2 fouled scopes from Nikon. If I tried to get out to 100 yards, I may never find paper. I started at 25 and got it on paper. It is so inconsistent at 50 that I would be afraid to think of even trying 100 yards. When I say inconsistent, here is an example of the group I am shooting at 50......1st shot - 3" left center, 2nd 4" left anbd 2" up, 3rd 3" left and 3" up, 4th 2" low and 1" left, 5th is dead nuts bullseye Yikes. If you were shooting a good bit better with an unmagnified red dot and the same ammo, it would almost have to be the scope or scope mounts. You could test it again by switching optics while at the range, shooting a few groups with each and comparing the results. |
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When I first sight in a scope I find something large, a 55 gal drum, old propane tank, or just about anything that size. Put it on a berm and aim at it. Shoot. If you were even close you will see a "dirt trail". Work it up from there.
The one consistent point was that you were shooting left. |
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You have a lot of things going on here and diagnosing the problem or problems can get difficult if you change to many things at once.
First, check your ammo, get a box of good quality match ammo and see how it shoots. Also have another experienced shooter take a crack at it. If it shoots then you know you need to concentrate on your handloads. If not, time to start looking at the firearm and optics. Next is check the optics. If you can, borrow another scope and swap it out. Make sure your mounts are good and secure. Shoot this scope with the same quality ammo used above. If it shoots, (both shooters) you know your scope is the culprit. If not, time to look at the mounts or the rifle itself. Do you have a set of Iron sites you can mount up to check for accuracy at 50 yards? This will also tell you if your optics are bad or if you and your scope cannot play nice together. If all else fails and it still won't shoot, time to look at the firearm and barrel. BTW, what is your twist? It is important when selecting your match ammo. |
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You have a lot of things going on here and diagnosing the problem or problems can get difficult if you change to many things at once. First, check your ammo, get a box of good quality match ammo and see how it shoots. Also have another experienced shooter take a crack at it. If it shoots then you know you need to concentrate on your handloads. If not, time to start looking at the firearm and optics. Next is check the optics. If you can, borrow another scope and swap it out. Make sure your mounts are good and secure. Shoot this scope with the same quality ammo used above. If it shoots, (both shooters) you know your scope is the culprit. If not, time to look at the mounts or the rifle itself. Do you have a set of Iron sites you can mount up to check for accuracy at 50 yards? This will also tell you if your optics are bad or if you and your scope cannot play nice together. If all else fails and it still won't shoot, time to look at the firearm and barrel. BTW, what is your twist? It is important when selecting your match ammo. 1:7" |
| If you are using a red dot go back to a regular scope and try that;V-Max with a regular scope should help alot on group size altough your barrel might like another bullet better.I have seen that with some red dots youcant be but so accurate and groups seem to be larger and with a 4 moa dot you start getting larger groups. |
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If you are using a red dot go back to a regular scope and try that;V-Max with a regular scope should help alot on group size altough your barrel might like another bullet better.I have seen that with some red dots youcant be but so accurate and groups seem to be larger and with a 4 moa dot you start getting larger groups. Currently right now I am having issues with the P-223. Like I said, I was shooting a hell of a lot better with the Red Dot with Federal XM193 and PMC Bronze. After I switched to the scope I couldnt shoot either or for shit. I was even shooting my handloads 10x better. I guess its back to square one. I have a 30.06, .243, and .270 with riflescopes that I can shoot better. Like I said, I am by no means a crack shot but if I cant even put together a 4" group at 50, thats sad. One question, when I installed the scope I used a torque wrench to set the mount and the scope rings as per the manufacturers specs (cant remember off hand what it was). It still seemed like they could be alot tighter. On all of the other scopes I installed, I just wrenched them down till they were tight. Should I try and tighten these down a bit more? |
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I don't know if you'll really understand or believe this but let me give it a whirl.
I did an error analysis for your shooting situation - 50 yard target, lots of different ammo types/quality, different degrees of shooter skills,... I assumed the rifle was good for 3/4 MOA, the scope error was 0.1 MOA and the wind was 0.25 MOA (don't get hung up in the numbers, I'm just disclosing what I used). Here's the thing, If the shooter is only capable of delivering a 1 MOA group, that error dominates the total group size seen on the target. This is especially true of the group is small (few rounds). If the shooter can only do 1.5 or 2 MOA, the chances of seeing anything else other than shooter error is vanishingly small. Under these circumstances, the difference in group size at 50 yards (due to the ammo) would only be 0.05". You'd need a very large number of rounds and a precise means to measure group size to ever discern that small of a difference in group size. If you stretch out the distance at which you test, the wind doping errors will begin to dominate the group size. However, even at 200 yards, with reasonable doping, the group will still be dominated by the shooter's inaccuracies. I am of the opinion that I am only a 1/2 MOA shooter. I am not a trained benchrest shooter. I have rifles which I believe are easily capable of sub 1/4 MOA accuracy but I can never milk it out of them because of my lack of benchrest shooting technique. The shots are always on call but the calls are for a group that is not smaller than 1/2 MOA. That they go exactly on call is why I think the rifle is capable of better accuaracy than I can deliver. Still, I only get 1/2 MOA groups, minimum. Here's what I find to be the true beauty of the ladder method - it finds a load which allows you to throw your charges and still shoot within your accuracy limits. Only when I can outshoot my ammo, I will begin to use benchrest reloading techniques. I don't know if any of that makes any sense to you but it is how I see your situation (and mine). I hope this helps in some way. Take care and enjoy your reloading and shooting! |
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