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Posted: 4/17/2013 11:25:44 AM EDT
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I've got this discussion going on Cast Boolits as well, but I like diverse answer groups... I had a thread on the dismal accuracy of my 45-70 a few days ago, what has been located as a partial/probable cause is my bullet seating depth in relation to my rifling... My Lyman manual indicates a COAL of 2.52" (for this bullet) which is inline with the crimp groove location on my cast bullets. HOWEVER When this bullet is seated to just touching the rifling, the COAL is 2.723"; that's nearly 1/4" for the bullet to bridge!!! Anyone have any thoughts on this as to why there's a massive difference here? Additionally, if I seat the bullet out to the rifling, when do I need to be concerned about the increase in case volume using H4198?? I don't want it to flash over and I'm certainly not familiar with that aspect! |
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Congratulations! You've discovered that factory chambers usually have very long throats and loading manual COALs don't put the bullet anywhere near the rifling.
And now you're wondering what to do about not having data for what's going to essentially be a wildcat. 
Quickload has been my solution for that problem. Will it feed at the long COAL? |
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Some rifle barrels have such a long leade that it's impractical to try to get the bullet seated for a short jump to the riflings, which may or may not increase your accuracy.
If the bullet has a cannelure, I'd seat it to the cannelure and crimp it. Have you measured the dimensions of your leade? I really can't speak to the effects of seating the bullet further out and the effects it will have on the interior ballistics. |
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You need to experiment and see what works best for you. If you've got your powder charge dialed in, then work on bullet seating depth. This is SOP. Maybe 15 rounds per depth, for three 5 shot groups and see what you see?
It's good practice, as well as insightful on the reloading side of things. Chris |
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Quoted: Congratulations! You've discovered that factory chambers usually have very long throats and loading manual COALs don't put the bullet anywhere near the rifling. And now you're wondering what to do about not having data for what's going to essentially be a wildcat. Quickload has been my solution for that problem. Will it feed at the long COAL? Quickload? I'm still working on getting my groups down below 12" @ 50yd. I has been suggested that this large jump using a cast bullet could be a large part of the issue and I'll be testing this weekend. the rifle is a C-Sharps 1885 High Wall replica; it's single shot so should feed anything I can slide in there. |
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Quoted: Oh well, if its a single shot, there's no need to crimp it.  Load it to where it's accurate. That powder you're using isn't really prone to flash over, but really I'd suggest using black in that gun. Barring that, I'd stick with Trail Boss. I'm not entirely opposed to BP, I'm just a little apprehensive since my only experience is with a muzzle loader and it's somewhat a pain to clean in those... Any reading suggestions? |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Oh well, if its a single shot, there's no need to crimp it.
Load it to where it's accurate. That powder you're using isn't really prone to flash over, but really I'd suggest using black in that gun. Barring that, I'd stick with Trail Boss. I'm not entirely opposed to BP, I'm just a little apprehensive since my only experience is with a muzzle loader and it's somewhat a pain to clean in those... Any reading suggestions? Cast Boolits is a good resource. Lots of guys on there are real familiar with it. A guy I work with posts there a lot and he makes his own powder. He claims its easier to clean than smokeless. ETA: Mike Venturino has written a book about loading and shooting black powder that may be useful. |
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I'm curious about the bullet you are loading.
Does it have a long racy ogive like a jacketed spitzer bullet? Don't be surprised if those shapes won't shoot. I would look for a bullet with a long bearing surface and a conservative ogive, more roundy than pointy - just like the old timers used. |
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Not really sure if your bullet jump is your problem. I have a LOT of bullet jump in my Mosin Nagants shooting cast bullets and they shoot great.
That being said, the advice you have gotten so far sounds very good. A long bullet jump combined with a little throat ware and slightly undersized bullet could allow the bullet to slip the rifling instead of engaging it. This surly is a recipe for bad accuracy. Seating to the lands or in fact engaging the land upon loading should work if this is your problem. If you are worried about the powder, I too suggest Trail Boss. I use it in a old Marlin take down 30-30 Win. |
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It appears I also have a leading issue... Using Hoppe's #9 the bore comes out clean, but I thought I'd try some Barnes CR-10 since it's stronger... The patches kept coming out black so I borrowed my friends bore-scope and I found about 6" of heavy leading 3" back from the crown... I'm going to try to find a copper chore-boy today and scrub it out. I spent about an hour trying to get rid of it last night with tight patches and a stiff brush but I can't quite get it all.  I think I've narrowed down my issues: Gun is wildly inaccurate due to leading. Barrel is leading due to one or more of the following: - Groove diameter = .459 Bullet = .458 hardcast so slightly undersized. - Never have seen a lube star at the crown so the lube on the bullet may be insufficient. Looks like I need to make some changes and get a different bullet... |
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Yeah, you can't shoot an undersized bullet with smokeless. That's a huge part of your problem.
Black powder actually punches it hard enough to bump it up. You do need to load them so they engrave, and have bullets the right size. Sounds like you're on the right track. Those chore boys are amazing, by the way. I've never seen something pull lead out like those. |
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Quoted: Yeah, you can't shoot an undersized bullet with smokeless. That's a huge part of your problem. Black powder actually punches it hard enough to bump it up. You do need to load them so they engrave, and have bullets the right size. Sounds like you're on the right track. Those chore boys are amazing, by the way. I've never seen something pull lead out like those. I've been giving more serious consideration to shooting BP lately. My only remaining concerns is the cleaning difficulty... I may have to try it out and see how it cleans up. I just hate to buy a pound of BP for a test... |
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Are you casting your own bullets? It's tough to impossible to buy the right kind. Usually you end up just banging your head against the wall and calling it quits, because most of them don't work too well. They're too hard, too small, or have the wrong lube on them.
Bullet casting is an adventure, but can be well worth it. Literally. |
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Quoted: Are you casting your own bullets? It's tough to impossible to buy the right kind. Usually you end up just banging your head against the wall and calling it quits, because most of them don't work too well. They're too hard, too small, or have the wrong lube on them. Bullet casting is an adventure, but can be well worth it. Literally. I'm not yet, but I've realized I need to now... |
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Did not see a bullet weight mentioned.
These old rounds designed for BP often to better if you use something around the original design weight. I have an 1866 .50-70 trapdoor that shoots very well with minimal effort using 450 grain bullets and BP. It does as well with 500 grain bullets, not nearly as well if you start backing down to 400 grains. The boom is mild and you can often hear the 'thwock' of the bullet into the backstop. It is just supersonic at the muzzle. |
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Leading near the muzzle is a sign of "not enough lube". Leading in the throat area and barrel in general can be caused by several things. Until I got my alloy sorted out I used Hoppe"s Lead Remover solvent and a stainless steel tornado brush and tight fitting patches to de-lead my barrel. Since you are using a 45 caliber you could also use the Lewis lead remover but will have to come up with a rod since it is for pistols.
Buy a bottle of Lee A-Lox bullet lube and lube your bullets. Do this right over top of the existing lube. If your leading problem is only near the crown this may correct it. As I stated in you other thread though, I would be using a bigger, in diameter, bullet. |
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Quoted: Did not see a bullet weight mentioned. These old rounds designed for BP often to better if you use something around the original design weight. I have an 1866 .50-70 trapdoor that shoots very well with minimal effort using 450 grain bullets and BP. It does as well with 500 grain bullets, not nearly as well if you start backing down to 400 grains. The boom is mild and you can often hear the 'thwock' of the bullet into the backstop. It is just supersonic at the muzzle. The stuff I have right now is 405gr flat point. |
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Quoted: Leading near the muzzle is a sign of "not enough lube". Leading in the throat area and barrel in general can be caused by several things. Until I got my alloy sorted out I used Hoppe"s Lead Remover solvent and a stainless steel tornado brush and tight fitting patches to de-lead my barrel. Since you are using a 45 caliber you could also use the Lewis lead remover but will have to come up with a rod since it is for pistols. Buy a bottle of Lee A-Lox bullet lube and lube your bullets. Do this right over top of the existing lube. If your leading problem is only near the crown this may correct it. As I stated in you other thread though, I would be using a bigger, in diameter, bullet. I've pretty much determined this is my course of action. I just don't ahve any right now and several people on castboolit want me to try backing off the load and seating further out. They're also sending me a few bullets of .459 and .460 to see which ones I need to be using. Helpful people there! (And here) |
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