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Posted: 8/3/2017 9:44:59 PM EDT
| So my order of Acme 9MM 115 gr coated bullets came in - and I determined what my OAL for this particular round. My question is - once I determine the OAL for my pistol should I reduce it a bit more - say .005 or so -just to give a bit more margin? And a 2nd related question - I have 2 pistols - a Glock and a VP9 - their OAL are significantly different - the VP9 requiring a smaller OAL. I can reload for the VP9 - and the ammo will fit both - or reload for each particular gun. Worthwhile to do the 2nd option? Would I expect to see signicant improvement in a group with a tighter OAL? I'm going to experiment this weekend but curious what others thought.... |
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I'd stick with published data for COAL. I would not try individual loads for each handgun unless you're shooting something like PPC where every factor counts.
When I am adjusting dies for a load, I usually run up a couple of dummy rounds and cycle them through a couple of different handguns for differences in magazine angles, ramps, and chambers. For 9mm, it's 1911 kimber (tight chamber), SW 5906 (avg), and surplus BHP (loose). If it fits and cycles, I'm good to go with everything else. If those are plated bullets, be sure to expand the case mouths a bit. |
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Quoted:
I'd stick with published data for COAL. I would not try individual loads for each handgun unless you're shooting something like PPC where every factor counts. When I am adjusting dies for a load, I usually run up a couple of dummy rounds and cycle them through a couple of different handguns for differences in magazine angles, ramps, and chambers. For 9mm, it's 1911 kimber (tight chamber), SW 5906 (avg), and surplus BHP (loose). If it fits and cycles, I'm good to go with everything else. If those are plated bullets, be sure to expand the case mouths a bit. I always check magazine and chamber for COAL, as sometimes the mag is the limiting factor depending on the bullet design. |
| I'd load for both guns. Unless it's some kind of high accuracy competition, there is little reason to be that precise. I would not go below published OAL, that's when you can quickly get into trouble. Bullet profile will affect OAL so make sure you do a plunk test in each barrel. My M&P Pro likes the Acme 147 grain FP. |
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Quoted: should I reduce it a bit more - say .005 or so If you're reloading using mixed brass, that 3rd decimal won't come into play. Frankly speaking, even with the same headstamp, I'd venture to say that bullet variation and press movement would make the 3rd place move quite a bit. I track my OAL to the 2nd decimal place, even though my calipers displays all three decimals. |
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One other thing to consider is crimp. I have a VP9. My wife recently got a G17. I loaded up a bunch of ammo the night before a match and sat on the back porch plunk testing it in my HK like I always do. Since her G17 was new, we had just finished running the inaugural 500 rounds of factory through it (Yes, I know it probably doesn't matter, but whatever). So these would be the first reloads.
She gets to the line and has a light primer strike on about the third round. That's odd. Swaps magazine and it happens again. About 1-2 every magazine. Super odd. I've had like one light primer strike in four years. Switched to factory and all was well. Got home and tried chamber checking them in the G17...what do you know? They fit a bit "tight" and about 1 in 10 would not go all the way forward until you pushed on it with your thumb. So, the slide would close and chamber the round- but not all the way. Pull the trigger and the stiker would hit the primer and round would slide forward to fully headspace. It was enough tension to dent the primer, but not crush it. Tightened up the crimp just a bit so they passed the plunk test in her gun and all was well. My mistake was believing "Glocks have looser chambers" lore and not actually testing them in BOTH guns. So if I were you(which I kind of was), I would ALWAYS test them in the gun you planned to shoot them in and try to find a crimp that you are sure either just removes the bell or puts a slight taper. I had just been adjusting the taper enough to chamber in the HK and thought it was enough to remove the bell. It appears it left enough to hang up sometimes. I'd start with working up a load for one first. Then do the second separately and see if there is crossover. |
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Quoted:
I can reload for the VP9 - and the ammo will fit both - or reload for each particular gun. Worthwhile to do the 2nd option? Unless you are a competitive shooter who keeps meticulous records of your reloading activities, I think you would find trying to load for, account for, segregate and ensure that the proper cartridge was provisioned to the proper gun is going to be more work than it is worth. Particularly in 9mm, seating a bullet deeper than is called for in the published data will reduce case volume resulting in higher chamber pressure - depending on the powder the higher pressures could become dangerously high much quicker than you would imagine. Stick with the COL in the published manuals. |
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Quoted:
Unless you are a competitive shooter who keeps meticulous records of your reloading activities, I think you would find trying to load for, account for, segregate and ensure that the proper cartridge was provisioned to the proper gun is going to be more work than it is worth. Particularly in 9mm, seating a bullet deeper than is called for in the published data will reduce case volume resulting in higher chamber pressure - depending on the powder the higher pressures could become dangerously high much quicker than you would imagine. Stick with the COL in the published manuals. As in 1.10 for a 115 gr RN. |
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Great responses guys. So it was suggested to find load data for the Acme bullets (9mm 115 rn-lng coated) and use that as a baseline. So far I have not been able to find anything for this particular round. I'm probably not looking at the right place. So - what I *thought* I understood - from previous postings - is to determine your max OAL for your particular gun/bullet via the plunk test. On my HK that works out around 1.05 - the G17 about 1.11. So the view in this thread is load for the smallest OAL so that it fits both guns - which would be the 1.05 one. I know that I can't go any longer that that - so that my max length. I'm using Titegroup powder btw. What should I consider a "safe" velocity to shoot for? I would start out a low end of powder charge - and work up - but not sure what I should aim for on velocity and stay within pressure ranges. On Hodgson web site - for the 2 examples they had for a 115 gn bullet the max velocity was around 1150 f/s - so I would have assumed that would be my max to shoot for. But before I load up several hundred I would like to have someone validate that approach....
One related point - what is the suggested "bell" diameter should I shoot for to keep from scraping the coating during bullet insertion? I've already upped that quite a bit over plated - but I may be a bit too much...The ACME bullets mike out to around .3565 Thanks again for all comments. |
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Quoted:
Great responses guys. So it was suggested to find load data for the Acme bullets (9mm 115 rn-lng coated) and use that as a baseline. So far I have not been able to find anything for this particular round. I'm probably not looking at the right place. So - what I *thought* I understood - from previous postings - is to determine your max OAL for your particular gun/bullet via the plunk test. On my HK that works out around 1.05 - the G17 about 1.11. So the view in this thread is load for the smallest OAL so that it fits both guns - which would be the 1.05 one. I know that I can't go any longer that that - so that my max length. I'm using Titegroup powder btw. What should I consider a "safe" velocity to shoot for? I would start out a low end of powder charge - and work up - but not sure what I should aim for on velocity and stay within pressure ranges. On Hodgson web site - for the 2 examples they had for a 115 gn bullet the max velocity was around 1150 f/s - so I would have assumed that would be my max to shoot for. But before I load up several hundred I would like to have someone validate that approach.... One related point - what is the suggested "bell" diameter should I shoot for to keep from scraping the coating during bullet insertion? I've already upped that quite a bit over plated - but I may be a bit too much...The ACME bullets mike out to around .3565 Thanks again for all comments. I normally skip over posts like these (called a "wall of text" here) and I'm sure many others do the same. Notice this site has custom formatting and doesn't look like any other forum site. About "finding loading data for your bullet", that can be done with the major bullet makers but in you case doesn't apply. That is why we have "start" loads. (lowest charge shown in published data) Start loads let you substitute "like" but different brand bullets of the same weight. As long as the bullet shape and weight is similar you are GTG. So you match up your bullet up with the start loads in Lyman 50 and begin from there. Back when I was still using the bell die that came in the die set, I belled 9mm to .478. That was also before I started powder coating. Now days I use Lyman "M" die to expand with. Lyman M die Before the M die, my PC coated bullets scraped with standard belling. If you want full velocity in 9mm, try Power Pistol, TiteGroup is just a little fast burning for top velocities, but works well if you don't push it too hard. |
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The gold standard for loading data for plated, coated hard cast, and straight hard case bullets is the Lyman 50th. But, it does not account for mould designs from other vendors, but provides a good source of starting load data.
The KERPLUNK Testing is needed on an individual basis period when loading cast, plated, and coated hard cast bullets! Most jacketed bullet data should be fairly reliable with respect to COAL. This is especially so when loading for different guns and the proliferation of the use aftermarket barrels. Like Lone Wolf Dist. bbls are well known for tight chambers! The problem is that a lot of commercial reloaders use moulds that there is NO published COAL for that exact bullet. Sure you can find bullet weight information to do a load work up. But, you the reloader will need to spend some time coming up with a COAL that works for that bullet in your guns! So for posters to make DO NOT EXCEED statements are wrong. |
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Your best option for General Purpose ammo, break out the 9mm's that you will be running the ammo in, figure out what has the shortest leade, load a hand full of blank test rounds that have about a .005" jump to rifling for that shortest leade pistol, then make sure they will all fit into all the mags for all the pistols.
Note, I load for a .003" jump, but loading on presses that will hold the COAL within .001". So before you get hard set on a jump to lands distance, double check what your machine will hold in regards to COAL, and let it be your guide line on jump point (so if the machine long loads something, you still have a .002" jump to lands). Hence if you loading on a worn out Lee press, may have to hold the jump to lands at .008" or greater. As for working up the ladder with charges, again, break out the pistols to run the ammo through to make sure you not going over pressure in one of them to begin with, or work the math the other way with what amount of charge that works best in all of them isntead (you can always re spring a pistol to get it to work with lighter loaded ammo). Myself, I will load plinking ammo this way, but for race guns, the ammo for that gun is loaded for that gun only, and it's only that gun that the ammo will be run through instead. Hence in 45acp, I have a few L10's that need to chew the same hole with the ammo only making 166mpf using clays, and are sprung up for these lighter loads. If I try to run their ammo's through my 220 that is sprung up for +p ammo using HS-6 (has a longer leade so not a problem of the bullet embedding on loading), that lighter loaded ammo would short stroke the slide every time. And why the Made in W. Germany 220 over a 1911 with +p ammo, even with a 1911 sprung up correctly (and the 1911 being much heaver instead), the 220 with +p ammo has less felt recoil, and is much lighter as a carry piece. So to sum it up, unless you just have to stock pile GP ammo deep, take the time to come up with loads for each pistol that you are going to run instead. Hence hand loading is about making the best ammo that will shoot the tightest groups in that pistol, over just having a huge of supply of ammo to run through the sub guns isntead. |
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As already mentioned if loading for more than one pistol and recreational shooting is the purpose, load your ammo so it will work in all of them and don't worry about it.
Yes getting too short can cause feeding problems. This is easy to detect. You should never have over pressure issues loading shorter unless you are taking an established load and changing it which of course makes it a un-established load. If you are using a start load to "start" I doubt you can go too short unless totally by accident like nose of bullets even with case mouth. Most powders suitable for 9mm (fast pistol/shotgun powders) can be safety reduced to the point of squib. So going under published start loads to compensate for a shorter OAL should be a non issue. It's been my personal experience loading too light for the 9mm results in the pistol not self loading, nothing more. If this happens you know that you need a little hotter load. Motor |
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To all that took the time to help out someone that is still learning a big thanks. I think I have it (mostly) figured out now. Hodgdon actually did have a listing for a bullet that was pretty close - and their results were pretty close to what I'm getting so that gave some validation.
Dryflash3: thanks for the tips on using a Lyman die. I have a Dillon progressive - and it uses the powder station to make the bell - and that does not appear to work out that well with coated bullets. I replace it with a Lee die that I had laying around that goes further into the brass and had no more issues with the "paint" being scrapped off. Also went back to using my dillon seating dies (2) - the first one seats it - the second removes the bell. That seems to stop the occasional scrap of lead that I was still seeing from a single die that did both. I probably will still order the Lyman M die - it not very expensive...I am going to order the Lyman manual. Dano523: your comments on leaving some margin on the COAL - to allow for some slop if you get some deviation from one round to another - was spot on. I see that deviation on mine - and I don't know why yet but it there. Just enough that if you are close to the maximum (for your chamber) OAL you can have some rounds that will barely pass the plunk test. So far I'm pleased with the end results. Velocity is around 1100 f/s - about in the middle for the Hodgdon data load I was comparing too. And my groupings have so far been improved over the 125 gr I had been shooting. |
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Depending on the press, and how you have it tooled up and using it, can really make a difference in minimize COAL verances.
In a progressive press, not only do you want to have a separate bullet seater, then crimping dies, you want to load the tools in the tool head so you have at least a 3 point tension on the shell holder to hold the plate same/same every stroke. On some presses if you can not get the 3 point squared around the tool plate with tool tension, you may have to add in tensioner tools to do it instead. As for a single stage press, some like the Co-ax are a little better, but on say a RCBS press that is still on the tight side, if you are pulling the handle down to one side of the other, it going to cause the variance in COAL even if you are running seperate seating and crimping dies, over just making sure to pull the lever down straight in line with the body. Hence as you cam the lever to one side as it pulled down, it cause the ram to move up higher than if you did pull the lever straight down. On a tight RCBS, you can get around .003" difference, while a well worn chucker isntead,can be into and past the .010" range instead. Lastly, make sure that your bullet seating stem matches the bullets that are being loaded. If you are using flat tip bullets and using a round nose bullet seating stem, your going to end up with a mess. As for even with flat tip bullets, I will cut a new seating stem to match it, instead of having extra room around the bullet tip to seating stem side wall that can cause the bullet to not be seated squarely into the case. From there, make sure that you are flairing the case mouths correctly, so the bullet can enter the cases centered, isntead of off sided from not enough case flairing instead. For me to really solve this problem since some case can be shorter than others, I use DIY lyman M type powder through expanders in the powder dispensors on the progressive machine. |
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Quoted:
To all that took the time to help out someone that is still learning a big thanks. I think I have it (mostly) figured out now. Hodgdon actually did have a listing for a bullet that was pretty close - and their results were pretty close to what I'm getting so that gave some validation. Dryflash3: thanks for the tips on using a Lyman die. I have a Dillon progressive - and it uses the powder station to make the bell - and that does not appear to work out that well with coated bullets. I replace it with a Lee die that I had laying around that goes further into the brass and had no more issues with the "paint" being scrapped off. Also went back to using my dillon seating dies (2) - the first one seats it - the second removes the bell. That seems to stop the occasional scrap of lead that I was still seeing from a single die that did both. I probably will still order the Lyman M die - it not very expensive...I am going to order the Lyman manual. I was loading 9mm today, and I have my M die adjusted so that it opens the mouth to .386. I was loading my PC'd bullets I cast with the Lee 120 gr TC mold. Dano523: your comments on leaving some margin on the COAL - to allow for some slop if you get some deviation from one round to another - was spot on. I see that deviation on mine - and I don't know why yet but it there. Just enough that if you are close to the maximum (for your chamber) OAL you can have some rounds that will barely pass the plunk test. So far I'm pleased with the end results. Velocity is around 1100 f/s - about in the middle for the Hodgdon data load I was comparing too. And my groupings have so far been improved over the 125 gr I had been shooting. |
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Quoted:
One other thing to consider is crimp. I have a VP9. My wife recently got a G17. I loaded up a bunch of ammo the night before a match and sat on the back porch plunk testing it in my HK like I always do. Since her G17 was new, we had just finished running the inaugural 500 rounds of factory through it (Yes, I know it probably doesn't matter, but whatever). So these would be the first reloads. She gets to the line and has a light primer strike on about the third round. That's odd. Swaps magazine and it happens again. About 1-2 every magazine. Super odd. I've had like one light primer strike in four years. Switched to factory and all was well. Got home and tried chamber checking them in the G17...what do you know? They fit a bit "tight" and about 1 in 10 would not go all the way forward until you pushed on it with your thumb. So, the slide would close and chamber the round- but not all the way. Pull the trigger and the stiker would hit the primer and round would slide forward to fully headspace. It was enough tension to dent the primer, but not crush it. Tightened up the crimp just a bit so they passed the plunk test in her gun and all was well. My mistake was believing "Glocks have looser chambers" lore and not actually testing them in BOTH guns. So if I were you(which I kind of was), I would ALWAYS test them in the gun you planned to shoot them in and try to find a crimp that you are sure either just removes the bell or puts a slight taper. I had just been adjusting the taper enough to chamber in the HK and thought it was enough to remove the bell. It appears it left enough to hang up sometimes. I'd start with working up a load for one first. Then do the second separately and see if there is crossover. |
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