Armory Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - RCBS beam scale (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/27/2016 6:20:42 PM EDT
|
I'm looking at trying out a beam scale.
I got a Chargemaster that I like, just not as accurate as I want at times. I bought a GemPro 250 to use for a secondary scale, I don't like it, too much drift. Thinking about just getting a 505 to try, sell the GemPro if I like the beam scale. From what I've read, a 505 should do what I'm looking for, OPINIONS? Thanks, Dave. |
|
I used a 505 scale for years until my father took it back so he could reload on the road.
I went to buy another, and they are hard to find (the non RCBS model). Didn't need the headache of trying to find a good one for a decent price so I said screw it and bought a new Dillon Eliminator beam scale. Damn near the same thing as a 505 Ohaus if not better. The Dillon IIRC was cheaper than the RCBS version. All I know proficiently is a beam scale. I've always wanted to play with a Chargemaster but I don't want to spend the money. |
|
The RCBS beam scales are not going to be any more accurate than the Chargemaster unless something is wrong with your electronic scale.
I have a RCBS 510 beam scale and a Chargemaster 1500. When I load I always check one to the other. In my opinion the electronic is more accurate. Just simply looking at the beam scale at different heights makes it look like it's not balanced on the hash mark. If you want better accuracy look for something different. Motor |
|
Quoted:
In my opinion the electronic is more accurate. I think you would be in the minority on that, but I could be wrong Just simply looking at the beam scale at different heights makes it look like it's not balanced on the hash mark. why would you do that? Motor |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In my opinion the electronic is more accurate. I think you would be in the minority on that, but I could be wrong Just simply looking at the beam scale at different heights makes it look like it's not balanced on the hash mark. why would you do that? Motor |
|
Quoted:
I found new 505's on Ebay for 59.99, free shipping. I'm not looking for more accurate per say, just reliable. The GemPro will drift 0.4 sometimes. Also, in a power outage electronic scales don't work. Why would you care about loading during a power outage? Oh...wait a minute...never mind. 
Motor1, how did you determine your beam scale was the incorrect value? Did you have a third scale?...just curious. While I wouldn't claim the 505 to be the best beam scale in the world, I think a good beam scale is usually regarded as about as reliable as anything outside the realm of ungodly expensive industrial/medical devices. |
|
I guess I'll have to back pedal and rephrase.
I find the electronic to be much easier to use. It doesn't matter what angle you look it. As I stated I use both at the same time and see no clear winner in accuracy. David redefined his reason for wanting one. He's basically going to use it about the same way I use mine. Having the mechanical to back up the electronic and visa versa is the best way to go. Motor |
|
The last run of RCBS 505 etc. scales were made in China- I think they were made in Mexico for a while before that and it looks like they are no longer made at all. For a period of time the US-made RCBS stuff was an aqua green color and both my 505 and 1010 are that generation.
There is a dude that tunes the older scales that were made in the USA (Wherever that is or was) and will not work on the foreign units. I saw some claims about the scales he tuned and did some experimentation on mine which are unmodified. I zeroed the scales then added granules of IMR 4895. With three granules of powder, either scale had a slight misalignment in the pointer. I tested repeatedly and got the same results. IIRC there are about 20 granules to .1 (one tenth) of a grain. So, even though the resolution of the scale is .1 grain, it is capable of measuring much finer increments. RCBS had the 502 and 505 which were 2 and 3 poise units, and there was the 510 and 1010. the 510 and 1010 have a poise mounted on a threaded shaft and take a little more time to set. For that reason I use the 1010 for established loads and the 505 when doing load development requiring frequent changes. The 1010 is the unit with a plexiglass cover that is kind of art-deco looking. My wife said it looks like something from the '50's - I replied "It works like something from the 50's, too..." |
|
I bought a tuned beam scale from Scott Parker. Its an older lyman d5 scale. It is amazing how repeatable and sensitive it is. The zero indicator is also marked in 1/10 gr. increments, so it's easy to see even tiny variations.
On this scale there is no offset from the zero indicator to the beam, so Parallax is minimized. I set it up at eye level. My old lyman d700 had quite a bit of offset between the zero indicator and the beam, it was terrible to try and read consistently. The old d700 scale was off, I could take a 55gr bullet, for example, and set the scale to balance with the large poise on 55gr. But, if you set the large poise on 50 gr and the secondary poise at 5 gr, it would read .2 or .3 off. I ran tests on the tuned scale from Scott in 5 gr increments, it was perfect for all the tests I had checkweights to cover. The scale I got from Scott is right on if zeroed and then tested with check weights (real check weights in grains, not bullets or dimes) I believe this scale is more precise than my digital. With a digital that reads to .1 gr, you could be +/- .05 grain and not know it. With the mechanical scale you do. I don't think its particularly significant, but if I'm developing a load I'd like to minimize that variable. |
|
The 505 is a good scale, as long as you keep it clean and don't allow it to rust!!!!
If it does not move freely with just a .1 gr added, then you allow it to rust, and have some cleaning to do isntead. The nylon blocks are easy to pull to clean then, the knife edges on the scale that mate with the block are easy enough to keep sharp, as well as just tooth bushing the beam to clean the notches as well. Hell, even the mag blade part is easy enough to straighten so it centered between the two magnets in the base each side. But if push came to shove, like the Ohaus/RCBS 10-10 scale better. On the 5-0-5, if you bend the gr section tab, you have to get it straight so it hand straight up and down, or the readings will be off. But lets back it up, and if you are having problems with the Chargemaster, then get RCBS on the phone to correct the problem (if it not that you have florescent lights too close to the scale, and what is causing the problem isntead) |
|
The Chargemaster is fine, it's within a .1. I find it is even more accurate if I truly let it warm up, that is turn it on and let it sit for awhile.
I just want a beam scale for a back up. If I have a problem, it is the GemPro, I may call them to see if I can return it. it has WAY too much drift. I think there may be something wrong with it. I dunno, I think a digital to back up a digital may be wrong. Digital with an "analog" back up is making more sense to me. |
|
Quoted:
The Chargemaster is fine, it's within a .1. I find it is even more accurate if I truly let it warm up, that is turn it on and let it sit for awhile. I just want a beam scale for a back up. If I have a problem, it is the GemPro, I may call them to see if I can return it. it has WAY too much drift. I think there may be something wrong with it. I dunno, I think a digital to back up a digital may be wrong. Digital with an "analog" back up is making more sense to me. All you need to do is get in the habit of pressing the zero button before you weigh a charge. If you are nervous about the scale keeping its accuracy drop a check weight in the pan every now and then. Trust me, I had the same problem. I was used to the scales at work. They are around $4000 and work soooo much better. The GemPro 250 is a good home use electronic scale for the price range. P.S. The central air turning on and off will cause a lot of "drift" |
| Buy the 505. Ive compared it against my Chargemaster and one charge in 25 might be a 1/10th off of each other. I like having a 505 for doing odds and ends where I dont want to pull my Chargemaster out where I need to weigh a couple charges before I start loading on the progressive or need to check powder during a loading session. |
|
Quoted:
The 505 is the best bet when properly mounted. I really don't give a damn if it is accurate I want it to repeat. I zero it and check it against test weights, it can offer much better repeatability to a closer resolution than a digital. Exactly, this is what I mean, I need repeatability. I know that the beam scale will be the same. With the GemPro, I always have to check it for zero, and when I have it tared out for the weight of the pan, I can't do that. With the beam scale, I can use the pan off the 505 on the CM, then set it on the 505, and know what it really weighs. I also picked up a full set of Lee spoons at an auction, never used. Pick the spoon that is the closest, and trickle up to what I want. I'll build a shelf mount just like Dryflash posted. |
|
Quoted:
Buy the 505. Ive compared it against my Chargemaster and one charge in 25 might be a 1/10th off of each other. I like having a 505 for doing odds and ends where I dont want to pull my Chargemaster out where I need to weigh a couple charges before I start loading on the progressive or need to check powder during a loading session. Exactly. |
|
Quoted:
I found new 505's on Ebay for 59.99, free shipping. I'm not looking for more accurate per say, just reliable. The GemPro will drift 0.4 sometimes. Also, in a power outage electronic scales don't work. Get a battery one. The beam scales are pretty bullet proof though. I still use one to check the electronic using check weights for the exact load. |
I have a RCBS 5-10 scale, and a GemPro 250. The GemPro stays plugged in all the time, and (unless there's been a power bump) it's on all the time, so it stays warmed up. The instructions call for a 15 or 20 minute warm up IIRC, but "forever" is a better warm up time in my opinion. 
My RCBS balance (it's not really a "scale," but rather a "balance" like in chemistry class) sits on an eye-level shelf with my trickler placed appropriately when needed. I use the GemPro to get the powder measure close, and after three samples measure right on the GemPro, I check three more on the balance. Works great, and it's bullet proof. The ONLY issue with any balance is that you pay attention to the settings for the poises. Those are the slider things (and the turning thing for 1/10 gr on my 5-10), and they require looking carefully at the markings while setting both. |
|
Quoted:
Rather than use one scale to check another, I use calibration weights such as these: http://alexnld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/500-Gram-Precision-Scale-Calibration-Weights-KitSet_1_nologo_600x600.jpg I cannot disagree with this, I have a set. I combine them to add up close to my charge weight for a "standard". I used these to determine my beam scale is very repeatable and accurate from low to high. |
|
I use my beam balance to verify loads are within my standards (usually within one width of the white indication line on the end of the beam). On the other hand, as long as the beam scale was properly built, it's hard for it to "drift." The beam is a BALANCE, which means that the sliding "poise" parts act as a counterweight to the mass placed on the weighing platform, and if the sample mass equals the setting of these counterweights, then it is equal in mass to that setting and the needle part of the beam lines up with the index.
For most applications, just keeping the balance zeroed is all that's needed. However, using a few known test weights, like the RCBS set, will give you enough information to verify that a balance is still accurate. Another good choice is this calibration weight set, though it's in grams instead of grains. Actually "calibrating" such a beam balance is a highly involved, and very "picky" task. It would cost more in test hardware - primarily precision test weights - than a replacement for a worn loading scale. |
My scale showed up today, set it up and leveled it. Then I weighed a 20 gram weight on both the Chargemaster and GemPro in grains, set the beam scale to that weight and set the 20 gram weight in it, balanced perfectly.
Been thinking about it, Like popinfresh said, I just want repeatability. As other have said, there is no drift in a beam scale, it is what it is. When I'm developing loads, I just want the charge to be the same, if I'm looking for 14.0gr, and I get 14.03 or whatever, I don't care as long as they are all the same. Last night, throwing charges of CFE, between the throwing them on the Chargemaster, then verifying on the GemPro, easily a tenth here and there. Now, does that really matter? Maybe not, but it drives me crazy. I'm going to get set up so that I can throw a little light with the Redding, and trickle up with the powder thrower. I think I need to try that out, see how I like it. In my experience with the Chargemaster, from what I have seen over the last 3 or so years, I'll never trust it to be dead nutz ALL THE TIME. 
GHP, funny You mention that set of weights, I had seen it, and threw it in the cart last nite when I ordered some other stuff. Now, I just got to build a stand for it. |
|
On the 5-0-5, make sure the scale doesn't wiggle. That 1/10 grain poise can move if the scale bounces. That's the beauty of the "mount" that dryflash3 uses - it keeps the scale in one place, which minimizes vibration. Vibration and air movement are the enemies of balance use, but with this type of balance, the potential affect of air movement is essentially negligible.
At current, my 5-10 is on a shelf over with a little divot for the balance/leveling foot keeping it located. That's going to change when I build the shelf/pigeon hole/storage unit for my bench; the scale will have its own home on top, with extra lighting, and now it'll have a similar mount to what dryflash3 has demonstrated. I'll also have my GemPro nearby, with a breeze box made of clear polycarbonate over it. Again, the digital scale is useful for its speed in resolution, but however accurate and precise it might be, it cannot beat gravity for reliability. 
|
|
I finally got up to town, got a cheap set of Forestner bits, and a 2"x8"x2' piece of Hickory. I got a plan for a mount that should be pretty cool I think.
Also heated up the the LEE pot, and filled the base of the trickler. Fell out the first time I turned it over, so I mixed up some epoxy. It's not coming out now.
|
|
Dave. You'll really like have the beam and the electronic. It's rare for me to be loading and not have both of them "on" so to say. It doesn't matter which one is the primary at the time. Having them both to compare to each other is priceless assurance.
IMO: Far greater assurance than 2 electronic scales. It's hard to "fake" level. 
Motor |
|
Any new, good mechanical condition beam scale MUST be set up dead level in all directions. To calibrate, use known weights.
Make sure the scale is not subject to vibration, or gusts of wind, as from a fan or HVAC system that has an outlet near the scale. Used scales can suffer from being mis-calibrated, and dirty beam pivots. Beam pivots should be cleaned carefully, as per mfr instructions. Any scale, regardless of type, needs to be protected from dirt and dust, and MUST have a protective cover of some sort. This need not be fancy, but must be effective in keeping airborne dust and crud from intruding into the mechanism. One of the nicest gizmos I stumbled across was a so-called Scale Funnel. It's a powder pan that fits on the scale, and which can be used to directly pour the powder into the cartridge mouth, thus eliminating the need for a separate funnel, and all that fuss and bother. Buy a few, because while one is on the scale trickling the last powder charge, the other one is charging your cartridge case. It is IMPERITIVE that you file enough material off the heavier ones to make them all the SAME weight. Once done, they make things much simpler. Example, and there are many others nowadays:http://www.brownells.com/reloading/powder-handling/powder-funnels/electronic-scale-powder-funnel-pan-sku100010214-54242-103808.aspx?cm_mmc=cse-_-Itwine-_-shopping-_-100-010-214&gdffi=5e517ec5e60d4cc7bbc235bfc648114c&gdfms=FAF3B3BA2DD240D0820908C25C00C573 |
|
Multiple companies have used that same casting.
Pacific, Hornady, RCBS. The beams have slightly different designs and counterweights. A 'dingbat' (trying to be polite here) I knew tried to degauss the magnets for the damper. He could not understand why his balance took so long to settle. The beam and tab for the damping are typically aluminum. Magnets work with ANY conductor. If the conductor moves a field is generated. Even in aluminum. The field is no longer fixed but varies withthe movement. The field dissipates energy in the resistance of the conductor. A scale damps ONLY if it is moving. Once it stops the magnetic field has NO effect. |
|
when I see a measurement that doesn't look right on my
5-0-5 I've found the beam where it drops into the v blocks ,pivot points. I find sometimes they have moved a little to one side or the other and touch the sides. Watch for this . Dust between the dampener. Dust in balance point. Keep the hooks free that hold the pan, that seems to cause an off reading |
|
Quoted:
Multiple companies have used that same casting. Pacific, Hornady, RCBS. The beams have slightly different designs and counterweights. A 'dingbat' (trying to be polite here) I knew tried to degauss the magnets for the damper. He could not understand why his balance took so long to settle. The beam and tab for the damping are typically aluminum. Magnets work with ANY conductor. If the conductor moves a field is generated. Even in aluminum. The field is no longer fixed but varies withthe movement. The field dissipates energy in the resistance of the conductor. A scale damps ONLY if it is moving. Once it stops the magnetic field has NO effect. Moving any conductor through a magnetic field creates a current in the conductor. This current produces a magnetic field that exactly opposes the field of the fixed magnets. That's what slows the beam down. The faster the beam moves, the more resistance to movement is produced. This form of magnetic damping is extremely sensitive - and makes scales that use it VERY easy to read. |
|
I think it's "more effective" because the large copper tab builds larger eddy currents. The better the conductor, the larger the eddy currents developed, and thus the larger the counter-magnetic force. This should help the scale settle more smoothly.
I'm sure this is as much personal preference as anything else, but my theory fits with both my technical background and my experience. It is in NO WAY a statement of "scientific fact", just my understanding of the effects involved. |
|
Quoted: I finally got out and made a base for the scale and trickle, not quite finished, but the most progress I've made in the last couple weeks.  http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/71metbu/DAVE-PC/Reloading/loading%20bench/20160814_214705_zpsrxsyuokv.jpg |
|
Quoted:
I dunno, it is hickory. Windsor plywood was having a sale, so I picked up various pieces for the project. I usually use oak, and stain with light golden oak. Any suggestions? Just a natural oil finish. I use Watco danish oil on my projects. Nothing could be easier. And if you scratch it up, just sand lightly and add a coat. |
|
Quoted:
Just stain to match your bench, then the finish of your choice. Quoted:
Quoted:
I dunno, it is hickory. Windsor plywood was having a sale, so I picked up various pieces for the project. I usually use oak, and stain with light golden oak. Any suggestions? Just stain to match your bench, then the finish of your choice. Well, I guess light golden oak with a poly finish it is.
|
|
Quoted: Well, I guess light golden oak with a poly finish it is. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I dunno, it is hickory. Windsor plywood was having a sale, so I picked up various pieces for the project. I usually use oak, and stain with light golden oak. Any suggestions? Just stain to match your bench, then the finish of your choice. Well, I guess light golden oak with a poly finish it is. |
|
Quoted:
I'm a lacquer guy myself. Poly is too hard to repair. I don't think there will be much repair work on this.
I got to use this set up for the first time tonight. I like it a lot. I used a LEE dipper, then trickled up to 42.0gr, perfect every time. Dumped it onto the GemPro just to see what happened, at first it drifted off several times, but I think as it warmed up it was right on. I did have to re-zero it twice. But I feel good about my charge weights now. I know that they are the same, every time. I never felt comfortable with the electronic scales, IDK, just like seeing the beam. Sometimes when the electronic scales would drift, and I did not catch it right off the bat, I always had questions about my charge weights, tonight I don't. I really also like the RCBS trickler, much easier to get what I want with it then I thought. Having it solidly mounted makes all the difference for me. Guess I'll put the buzzer thingy on Ebay now.
|
|
I'm a great believer in beam scales, they can be capable of very good accuracy - much better that the usually stated .1 grain.
Here's a Dillon Eliminator I recently tuned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moCxMHM3BsM and full makeover on a Redding No 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np2XyJlN3Js |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - RCBS beam scale (Page 1 of 2)
Armory Sponsor