Armory Sponsor
Posted: 11/22/2011 7:24:19 AM EDT
|
I have no equipment yet. Im wanting to load 308 match. along with lots of 40,45, 223 this makes be want a progressive but with wanting to make match ammo also i want a single stage
in a thread i just read someone said run a progressive as a single stage. how? My guess? Remove the powder dropper and measure powder each round and just run one thought through the 5 stages. I guess it would be the same wouldnt it? if it matters im debasting between the Hornady LNL AP and Dillon 650. Will add case and bullet feeder sometime Edit. I have $200 in points towards cabelas so the hornaday AP is probably where im going since they do not sell dillon |
|
What you have to come to grips with is the concept that everything you've ever been told about single stage producing better ammo than a progressive is wrong. They do not. It is as simple as that.
I have to go now, but I'll check back in later tonight to see what has been added to this thread. |
|
Quoted: What you have to come to grips with is the concept that everything you've ever been told about single stage producing better ammo than a progressive is wrong. They do not. It is as simple as that. I have to go now, but I'll check back in later tonight to see what has been added to this thread. Hmm, now that's a debate starter. In the past year I bought a LEE 1000 and sent it back to LEE because it was a POS. They would not refund my money so I paid the difference and got the Load Master. It too was a POS so I gave it away here to a needy ARFCOMMER. Then I bought a RL550B. It's a quality press, granted. However- when you add up all the time spent tinkering to get everything right, especially because you have to fuck around with four dies set so close to each other and when you add the time spent loading the primer tubes and then having to constantly jiggle the shell plate to get the primer to seat, I finally started hand priming my brass and just charging/bullet seating and crimping on the Dillon. Oh, and I constantly had to keep an eye on COAL and adjust the die to stay where I wanted it. Can't say why, I just did. Now keep in mind that this was straight walled pistol brass (40SW) I'm getting ready to load a few thousand 5.56 and I gotta tell you- I'm going to hand prime them and load them using a double single stage set-up. I mount two single stage presses in a row and my powder dispenser in front of the first. Charge-seat-crimp. I can do +/- 300 per hour that way using primed brass. I really wasn't going any faster on the 550 when I was priming on it. Also, on the single stage the COAL doesn't fluctuate. Granted, I'm using a Forster Ultra-micrometer die vs a LEE cheapo on the 550. Anyway, All things considered, I'd rather load the rifle rounds on my set-up than the 550. Then again, I'm simple. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
What you have to come to grips with is the concept that everything you've ever been told about single stage producing better ammo than a progressive is wrong. They do not. It is as simple as that. I have to go now, but I'll check back in later tonight to see what has been added to this thread. Hmm, now that's a debate starter. In the past year I bought a LEE 1000 and sent it back to LEE because it was a POS. They would not refund my money so I paid the difference and got the Load Master. It too was a POS so I gave it away here to a needy ARFCOMMER. Then I bought a RL550B. It's a quality press, granted. However- when you add up all the time spent tinkering to get everything right, especially because you have to fuck around with four dies set so close to each other and when you add the time spent loading the primer tubes and then having to constantly jiggle the shell plate to get the primer to seat, I finally started hand priming my brass and just charging/bullet seating and crimping on the Dillon. Oh, and I constantly had to keep an eye on COAL and adjust the die to stay where I wanted it. Can't say why, I just did. Now keep in mind that this was straight walled pistol brass (40SW) I'm getting ready to load a few thousand 5.56 and I gotta tell you- I'm going to hand prime them and load them using a double single stage set-up. I mount two single stage presses in a row and my powder dispenser in front of the first. Charge-seat-crimp. I can do +/- 300 per hour that way using primed brass. I really wasn't going any faster on the 550 when I was priming on it. Also, on the single stage the COAL doesn't fluctuate. Granted, I'm using a Forster Ultra-micrometer die vs a LEE cheapo on the 550. Anyway, All things considered, I'd rather load the rifle rounds on my set-up than the 550. Then again, I'm simple. What exactly does spending tinkering time have to do with making Match grade ammo? I haven't spent more than maybe 15 minutes tinkering with my 550 before I was producing Match Grade ammo. A progressive has NO problem producing GREAT ammo, and does it considerably faster than a single stage press. Black Hills started producing Match ammo on the 1050Bs. So yes, you can easily produce Match grade ammo on a progressive. Also, how much ammo are you looking to produce? Depending on your output per month, that AP/650 might be overkill. |
| I think its how someone defines "match grade" that is the determining factor. You think many bench rest/long distance target shooters are using progressives? Nope. All comes down to your how you want your ammo to be. Yes you could produce match grade ammo on a progressive but just depends what kind of match your shooting and really how well want your ammo to shoot. You want ultimate precision you single stage and take your time. |
|
First off, what is the definition of "match grade"? That is a very loose term.
I know that my progressive (LnL AP) can match or exceed consistent OALs compared to Federal GMM, Hornady, or Prvi Match. Powder drop is a different matter. Some powders don't throw so well. |
|
Quoted:
I think its how someone defines "match grade" that is the determining factor. You think many bench rest/long distance target shooters are using progressives? Nope. All comes down to your how you want your ammo to be. Yes you could produce match grade ammo on a progressive but just depends what kind of match your shooting and really how well want your ammo to shoot. You want ultimate precision you single stage and take your time. This is it. Also what application, what weapon. I bet you could make ammo that surpass Factory "match" ammo on a progressive. Question is how many levels of sickness do you want to continue. Ultimately you want the besty of the best it's going to be single stage BUT does your application and weapon need it? Your call |
|
Quoted: What you have to come to grips with is the concept that everything you've ever been told about single stage producing better ammo than a progressive is wrong. They do not. It is as simple as that. ...  I've been making (factory) match grade ammo for my pistols, revolvers and rifles on my Dillon 550 for about ten years now and have won numerous matches with it. |
| If I was to do things differantly and 30 years later then I started reloading I would get a progressive and a good digital scale. You can learn on a progressive just as easy as a single stage if you take it one station at a time. I would then keep an eye out for a used single stage press and purchase only what I needed for the single stage. As it stands know I have everything for all my calibers for a single stage and now I am buying everthing for all the calibers I want to load on the progressive. I would plan on loading pistol and 223 with the progressive and my hunting calibers on a single stage. This would save a lot in shell holders, pilots and dies that might not fit both presses. I got lucky in that my RCBS dies are working in the LnL cause I would hate to have to go out and buy new dies. Its definatly nice to be able to throw a shell holder in the single stage press to nock out a primer or other small task and not have to install a shell plate on the LnL but its definatly not required to have all the hardware for 2 presses. |
, but all my AR ammo is loaded on my 1050 now.
|
Quoted:
I have no equipment yet. Im wanting to load 308 match. along with lots of 40,45, 223 this makes be want a progressive but with wanting to make match ammo also i want a single stage in a thread i just read someone said run a progressive as a single stage. how? Place one case in progressive and run it through all the stations. When ejected, start with the next round. But not really like "loading on a single stage." My guess? Remove the powder dropper and measure powder each round and just run one thought through the 5 stages. I guess it would be the same wouldnt it? if it matters im debasting between the Hornady LNL AP and Dillon 650. Will add case and bullet feeder sometime Edit. I have $200 in points towards cabelas so the hornaday AP is probably where im going since they do not sell dillon |
|
I have a 550, Lee .50 Press, and a RCBS Rockchucker that I picked up.
When I want lots of ammo, I run the 550. It turns out ammo that is just fine, and could be considered "Match" grade. When I am loading for my .308 bolt gun (specifically built for "match" shooting type conditions) I use the RCBS. I use Redding Micrometer dies, I hand measure every powder charge, I weight sort the bullets to within .5gr or less, and then (for shits and giggles since I got it for free), I throw each round in the Hornady Concentricity Tool. The rounds I create out of that setup are far and away better than what comes out of the dillon. They take a LOT longer to do, but I have the loads figured out, and it shows when I shoot. As most guys above have said, it really depends on what your definition of "match" grade ammo is, and what you are wanting to do with it. Are you shooting at 100yds, or 1000yds? It makes a difference. Does your gun have a match chamber? It makes a difference. Do you fire form your brass and only use that brass in that gun? It makes a difference. Define what you have, what you want, and what you want it to do, and then go from there. Progressive presses like the 550 can turn out GREAT ammo. But it is not quite in the same league as hand crafted ammo done right on a single stage. |
| While progressives can produce great ammunition, "match grade" is the key phrase. Match grade in USPSA may not be the same to you as match grade in a 1000yd benchrest competition. I reload all my USPSA ammo on my 550. For rifle ammo that I want to hit the same hole for 5-10 shots at 300-1000yds, I use my single stage and powder trickler. |
|
Simply put tis a poor carpenter that blames his tools. You, the reloader, can load very accurate ammo with any press! And, it all about how anal you are!
Fact David Tubb loads on Dillon 550 that has been tweaked and Prometheus Scale. Fact the US Palma Team has loaded ammo on Dillons! So what if comes down to is fellow or gal loading the ammo! Does not matter if you load with a Lee Press or a Forster CoAx....they all can turn out So Called Match Grade Ammo......becaue in reality there is really not that many cartridges that have "factory" produced ammo? Just go look what Federal produces or BHA... not all that many! The correct term is the most accurate ammo for your gun! |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What you have to come to grips with is the concept that everything you've ever been told about single stage producing better ammo than a progressive is wrong. They do not. It is as simple as that. I have to go now, but I'll check back in later tonight to see what has been added to this thread. Hmm, now that's a debate starter. In the past year I bought a LEE 1000 and sent it back to LEE because it was a POS. They would not refund my money so I paid the difference and got the Load Master. It too was a POS so I gave it away here to a needy ARFCOMMER. Then I bought a RL550B. It's a quality press, granted. However- when you add up all the time spent tinkering to get everything right, especially because you have to fuck around with four dies set so close to each other and when you add the time spent loading the primer tubes and then having to constantly jiggle the shell plate to get the primer to seat, I finally started hand priming my brass and just charging/bullet seating and crimping on the Dillon. Oh, and I constantly had to keep an eye on COAL and adjust the die to stay where I wanted it. Can't say why, I just did. Now keep in mind that this was straight walled pistol brass (40SW) I'm getting ready to load a few thousand 5.56 and I gotta tell you- I'm going to hand prime them and load them using a double single stage set-up. I mount two single stage presses in a row and my powder dispenser in front of the first. Charge-seat-crimp. I can do +/- 300 per hour that way using primed brass. I really wasn't going any faster on the 550 when I was priming on it. Also, on the single stage the COAL doesn't fluctuate. Granted, I'm using a Forster Ultra-micrometer die vs a LEE cheapo on the 550. Anyway, All things considered, I'd rather load the rifle rounds on my set-up than the 550. Then again, I'm simple. What exactly does spending tinkering time have to do with making Match grade ammo? I haven't spent more than maybe 15 minutes tinkering with my 550 before I was producing Match Grade ammo. A progressive has NO problem producing GREAT ammo, and does it considerably faster than a single stage press. Black Hills started producing Match ammo on the 1050Bs. So yes, you can easily produce Match grade ammo on a progressive. Also, how much ammo are you looking to produce? Depending on your output per month, that AP/650 might be overkill. Match grade ammo maybe keep a stash of 500 rounds once i get a good load down. The reason i want a 650 is at some point ill mass produce 40, 45, and 223 |
|
The key to match ammo is not entirely the machine used to make it, but how well the operator uses it (just as that fancy scope wont make your gun much better if you are crap for basic marksmanship skills).
Poor setup, poor attention to consistency: poor quality ammo. If you want a progressive and can afford one, get one. Its not like you cant pick up a used single stage for next to nothing to build test loads on before setting up the progressive to make them faster. |
|
Quoted:
The key to match ammo is not entirely the machine used to make it, but how well the operator uses it (just as that fancy scope wont make your gun much better if you are crap for basic marksmanship skills). Poor setup, poor attention to consistency: poor quality ammo. If you want a progressive and can afford one, get one. Its not like you cant pick up a used single stage for next to nothing to build test loads on before setting up the progressive to make them faster. Yep! Then again, you can make your test loads on the progressive, too. You can use a progressive as a single stage if you'd like. The thing is, you can never go progressive on a single stage. OP, there are so many people on this board who are using Dillons and other progressives. All of them, collectively and individually, are not wrong. Go for it! |
|
Most types of match ammo can be made on a progressive press but not benchrest ammo, you'll never find a 1K yd(or any distance for that matter) BR shooter loading ammo on a progressive press because they thrive for the very most consistent loads possible(were talking about single digit ES & SD) and it's not possible on any progressive press no matter who is operating it.
Since not many people need BR ammo a progressive press is perfectly capable of making match ammo that will hit the target very close to where you aim. |
|
Match is a term used loosely. EWP sums it up pretty well. Match grade isn't the same as bench rest. Tubbs loading on his 550 while using Prometheus scale isn't what most here call loading progressive. Oh, well your post. Term match grade anyway you like. I'm sure Tubbs is checking run out before and after seating too. Sounds more like using progressive single stage to me. Can load "match grade" pistol on any press made today. Match grade rifle (bench rest) on progressive in full auto mode keeping ES under 25 and SD under 10. No. Not in full auto mode.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted:
Most types of match ammo can be made on a progressive press but not benchrest ammo, you'll never find a 1K yd(or any distance for that matter) BR shooter loading ammo on a progressive press because they thrive for the very most consistent loads possible(were talking about single digit ES & SD) and it's not possible on any progressive press no matter who is operating it. Since not many people need BR ammo a progressive press is perfectly capable of making match ammo that will hit the target very close to where you aim. Exactly. |
|
I load all my match rifle ammo from 22BR to 338 Lapua on a Dillon 550. All the powder charges are done via a Prometheus II, but other than that pretty much a simple set up.
I also load all my 223 match ammo on a Dillon 1050. The ammo loaded on it won a pretty big regional match earlier this month and the ammo loaded on my 550 has won its share of matches. It is the Indian, not the arrow. But if I miss a target I want to be 100% sure it was me and not the gun or ammo. |
|
Quoted:
I load all my match rifle ammo from 22BR to 338 Lapua on a Dillon 550. All the powder charges are done via a Prometheus II, but other than that pretty much a simple set up. I also load all my 223 match ammo on a Dillon 1050. The ammo loaded on it won a pretty big regional match earlier this month and the ammo loaded on my 550 has won its share of matches. It is the Indian, not the arrow. But if I miss a target I want to be 100% sure it was me and not the gun or ammo. what is this and how does it work on the 550 looking at getting a 550 for 308 bc I don't want to change the primer stuff out on my 650 set up for small primers. |
It's a very precise powder measure/scale that can basically weigh a kernel of powder. There's a very long wait to get one and they run north of $2,500, IIRC. Prometheus II You're pretty much the shit in the reloading world, if you own one. Load it up, calibrate it, drop a hit of acid and you're good to go. Chris |
|
Quoted: Quoted: I load all my match rifle ammo from 22BR to 338 Lapua on a Dillon 550. All the powder charges are done via a Prometheus II, but other than that pretty much a simple set up. I also load all my 223 match ammo on a Dillon 1050. The ammo loaded on it won a pretty big regional match earlier this month and the ammo loaded on my 550 has won its share of matches. It is the Indian, not the arrow. But if I miss a target I want to be 100% sure it was me and not the gun or ammo. what is this and how does it work on the 550 looking at getting a 550 for 308 bc I don't want to change the primer stuff out on my 650 set up for small primers. the Prometheus II powder measure sits atop a platform above my 550B and takes the place of station 2 |
|
This will be heresey to some and is not offered as bait. It is offered as a real counter to the argument being made here.
There is no practical benefit to having identical powder charges in every single cartridge. It is "nice". It is "elegant". It is "ideal". It is also unnecessary and irrelevant. |
|
Lot's of definitions for just one word like "match". Also lots of definitions to the word "progressive". I don't have a problem loading long range rifle on my 550, especially using a Prometheus or in my case hand trickling on Veritas S123. The word "progressive" includes the use of powder measure originally equipped with the press or equivant of in competitor brand to almost everyone like Op asking the question. My 550 or Hornady AP equipped with Bench Rest dies will do a fine job of loading F Class ammunition. There's another difference that needs to be noted.
All of this hashing about "match grade" and spin on Indians and Arrows don't mean much to someone new who is trying to sort wants from reality. As to powder consistancy weights. There's an exercise in clarification. Are you refering to a grain variance ? Or tenth of grain variance ? In a plinkers eye a grain difference at a hundred yard target isn't a big deal. In the world of F class a few tenths variance isn't given much thought. In the discipline of long distance 1000 plus yard competition there's a debate whether a tenth or half a tenth variance makes much a difference. So, as all levels of shooters/handloaders/reloaders bring experience to answer Ops question. I will simply say to Op there are varying answers amongst people of varying disciplines. Op needs to define expectation to get realistic answer to question. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
In the world of F class a few tenths variance isn't given much thought. Not the ones I shoot with... Getting excellent long range accuracy and very low ES/SD is key, and they cant hurt and sure do help. You will hear no argument here. We're cut from the same cloth on that. ES under 25 and SD under 10. All of my .308 Winchester is loaded using Veritas S123. It doesn't matter if it's 100 yards or 1000 yards. All gets loaded the same. Most F class shooters that weigh in here will tell you loading to within .02 is a waste of time. |
|
I load progressively on a 550B. Won 2 CMP matches last year.
Perfect ammo is not nearly as important as consistent practice or dry firing. I double check my charge weight at the beginning of a run, then double check OAL, then pull handle until I have what I need. Find out what your gun likes, then stick with it. Spend the rest of your effort and time practicing. |
Armory Sponsor