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Posted: 2/28/2009 11:59:33 AM EDT
LC once fired 223 brass using a Lee resing die. About one out of every three is not fitting all the way down on my case gage. I used RCBS lube and thought I coated them evenly. I put a little more lube on just in case. Anyways pictures. The good one is a little fuzzy but you can still tell it is seated completely in the case gauge. 
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| Sometimes with military brass the Leedies won't fully bring them back into spec, especially if they were fired from a machine gun with a chamber that is a little oversized. You may be better off going to the RCBS small base die set. Either that or you need to adjust you sizer die in a quarter to a turn more to fully seat them. If that doesn't work, go with the RCBS small base set. I had to do this with my .308 loads for my DPMS, even though the Lee loaded rounds worked great in my M1a with a national match barrel. Keep your Lee crimp die though if you want to crimp bullets without a cannelure, or bullets that you're loading where the cannelure doesn't line up. Just set the seater die to seat only, or you'll crush cases. I found this out the hard way. |
| Don't know about your gauge but could your rims be bent or nicked from the ejector-extractor causing the edge of the rim from going into your gauge? Some military once-fired or cases from your rifle could be dinging the extractor rim of the case. A smooth file should clean up the nicks or expanded area or the rims. |
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Don't know about your gauge but could your rims be bent or nicked from the ejector-extractor causing the edge of the rim from going into your gauge? Some military once-fired or cases from your rifle could be dinging the extractor rim of the case. A smooth file should clean up the nicks or expanded area or the rims. This. Always try the case in backwards. If it won't go in backwards, it won't go all the way in forward. |
| OK I am going to adjust my die down a little more and file the rims to see if they are hanging up. Otherwise it sounds like this small discrepency is not too big of a deal. Is this correct. Or should just not reload these unless I can get them perfect. These were all fired out of a SA Ar15, |
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in the second pic, the fuzzy one, hard to tell if you oversized your brass, e.g. the case is below the min level in the case gage. Also, sizing the ones with dinged rims won't fix the dinged rims It sure dos doesn't it. You can try a "chamber check". Take a case that gages correctly and the cases that do not: With a clean gun, punch your rear pin and let your upper pivot downwards or go ahead and remove upper from lower. Pull BCG to therear exposing chamber. Place properly resized case in chamber and gently push bcg forward till it seats remembering how much pressure was required. Now try each of the cases that would not gage, if any do not want to chamber with minimal pressure or extract easily, there is an issue in your resizing. I wish I could remember who it was here that first taught me that |
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in the second pic, the fuzzy one, hard to tell if you oversized your brass, e.g. the case is below the min level in the case gage. Also, sizing the ones with dinged rims won't fix the dinged rims So you are saying that I don't have a problem with the case that sticks out slightly but the one that is flush with the gage? Going to measure a few cases |
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Quoted: Quoted: in the second pic, the fuzzy one, hard to tell if you oversized your brass, e.g. the case is below the min level in the case gage. Also, sizing the ones with dinged rims won't fix the dinged rims So you are saying that I don't have a problem with the case that sticks out slightly but the one that is flush with the gage? Going to measure a few cases What some of us are saying is that in your second picture, it looks like you have the case base below the level of the case gauge indicating that you have bumped the case shoulder back too far and now have excessive headspace issues. Any case that falls below the min length in your case gauge should be discarded as it is unsafe. |
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in the second pic, the fuzzy one, hard to tell if you oversized your brass, e.g. the case is below the min level in the case gage. Also, sizing the ones with dinged rims won't fix the dinged rims It sure dos doesn't it. You can try a "chamber check". Take a case that gages correctly and the cases that do not: With a clean gun, punch your rear pin and let your upper pivot downwards or go ahead and remove upper from lower. Pull BCG to therear exposing chamber. Place properly resized case in chamber and gently push bcg forward till it seats remembering how much pressure was required. Now try each of the cases that would not gage, if any do not want to chamber with minimal pressure or extract easily, there is an issue in your resizing. I wish I could remember who it was here that first taught me that OK I tried this and both were about the same I tried an unfired round and its pressure to seat was the same as the other 2. I put 2 fingers on the end of the bolt applied medium pressure and it poped in place. Extraction also seemed the same for all as well. |
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in the second pic, the fuzzy one, hard to tell if you oversized your brass, e.g. the case is below the min level in the case gage. Also, sizing the ones with dinged rims won't fix the dinged rims So you are saying that I don't have a problem with the case that sticks out slightly but the one that is flush with the gage? Going to measure a few cases What some of us are saying is that in your second picture, it looks like you have the case base below the level of the case gauge indicating that you have bumped the case shoulder back too far and now have excessive headspace issues. Any case that falls below the min length in your case gauge should be discarded as it is unsafe. Better pictures. What does bumped the base shoulder back too far mean did I set something up wrong with my dies. Why are not all coming out the same? Sorry I don't completely understand I have read a few books and been on here a lot I just want to make sure I understand everything and dont blow up mys gun and or myself.  
I did measure a few cases and all were from 1.749-1.760. |
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OK so now I think I completely understand headspace and potential issues with it and why it can be a problem. I figure this these rounds were fired out of the same AR that has a low round count and is hopefully within spec, it is a CMMG. If the head falls below the case gage this can create excessive headspace and potentially lead to a catrastrophic failure.
What I don't understand is this is all the same brass, same gun, same everything so why could this be a little difference among them. From my research "militry" weapons have more of a tolerance for this issue. What I want to know is this. If I get rid of any brass that falls below the minium of the case gage which I don't think it does it just falls perfectly flush with it, and maybe that is not being well represented with my pictures, I should not have any issue. I will of course check case length, but being only once fired this should not be too much of an issue. Am I being too cautious/paranoid about it or am I being the way a noob should be. Also the ones that stick out ever so slightly are more than likely a rim issue, and should also not be an issue? Thanks again guys. |
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The OAL of the necked rifle case is really only a derived dimension from the sum of 2 distinct dimensions that your case gauge measures. That's why both ends have a min and max length surface machined into them. Both ends of your case must fall between the high and low surfaces at the same time to consider your case sized correctly. This is because a necked rifle case 'indexes' itself on the shoulder datum of the chamber when it is loaded into your rifle. This is different from a rimed straight walled case that indexes itself off of the chamber face by the rim laying against it or a rimless strait walled case that indexes itself off of the front edge of the camber when the case mouth contacts it. A bit of information concerning use of your case gauge is in order. 1st - The large hole end of your case gauge measures the dimension from the shoulder datum to the case base. This controls the headspace between the rear of the case and the bolt face. Get this too long and the bolt won't fully close (bad). Get this too short and there will be too big of a gap between the rear of the case and the boltface (bad). The set point of the shoulder is controlled by how you adjust your resizing die. Therefore, you should set your die by using clean, unlubed, fired cases by first finding one that is too long on the big hole end. By that, I mean that the case base sticks up too far in the gauge. Then lube it and resize. Next remove the lube and check it in the case gauge. Your die is set correctly when the unlubed, resized case fits into the gauge correctly, i.e. the case base is between the high and low machined surfaces on the large hole end of your case gauge. 2nd - The smaller hole end of your case gauge measures the dimension from the shoulder datum to the case mouth. This controls how far the mouth travels into the chamber. Get this too long and the case won't fit into your chamber and the bolt won't fully close (see above). Get this too short and the remaining neck won't have sufficient surface area to impart the correct neck tension to hold the bullet in place (bad). To adjust the length of the neck, you trim a properly resized case so that the mouth falls between the high and low machined surfaces on the small hole end of your case gauge. If done correctly, the OAl of your .223 case will fall between 1.750" and 1.760". Note: You hear a lot of people just talking about their OAL because their shoulder to case base length is already correct so trimming the case OAL is just setting the neck length. All this aside, I strongly recommend that before you touch your press again, you pick up a Basics of Reloading book and read it cover to cover. When you are done, read it again. After that, I also suggest you contact someone who's been reloading rifle calibers for a while and get with him/her to discuss what's involved and have them help you with until you get the hang of it. |
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Quoted:
The OAL of the necked rifle case is really only a derived dimension from the sum of 2 distinct dimensions that your case gauge measures. That's why both ends have a min and max length surface machined into them. Both ends of your case must fall between the high and low surfaces at the same time to consider your case sized correctly. This is because a necked rifle case 'indexes' itself on the shoulder datum of the chamber when it is loaded into your rifle. This is different from a rimed straight walled case that indexes itself off of the chamber face by the rim laying against it or a rimless strait walled case that indexes itself off of the front edge of the camber when the case mouth contacts it. A bit of information concerning use of your case gauge is in order. 1st - The large hole end of your case gauge measures the dimension from the shoulder datum to the case base. This controls the headspace between the rear of the case and the bolt face. Get this too long and the bolt won't fully close (bad). Get this too short and there will be too big of a gap between the rear of the case and the boltface (bad). The set point of the shoulder is controlled by how you adjust yourresizing die. Therefore, you should set your die by using clean, unlubed,fired cases by first finding one that is too long on the big hole end.By that, I mean that the case base sticks up too far in the gauge. Then lube it and resize. Next remove the lube and check it inthe case gauge. Your die is set correctly when the unlubed, resizedcase fits into the gauge correctly, i.e. the case base is between the high and lowmachined surfaces on the large hole end of your case gauge. 2nd - The smaller hole end of your case gauge measures the dimension from the shoulder datum to the case mouth. This controls how far the mouth travels into the chamber. Get this too long and the case won't fit into your chamber and the bolt won't fully close (see above). Get this too short and the remaining neck won't have sufficient surface area to impart the correct neck tension to hold the bullet in place (bad). To adjust the length of the neck, you trim a properly resized case so that the mouth falls between the high and lowmachined surfaces on the small hole end of your case gauge. If done correctly, the OAl of your .223 case will fall between 1.750" and 1.760". Note: You hear a lot of people just talking about their OAL because their shoulderto case base length is already correct so trimming the case OAL is just setting the neck length. All this aside, I strongly recommend that before you touch your press again, you pick up a Basics of Reloading book and read it cover to cover. When you are done, read it again. After that, I also suggest you contact someone who's been reloading rifle calibers for a while and get with him/her to discuss what's involved and have them help you with until you get the hang of it. Thanks a lot that did explain some things that I was unsure of. FYI I have read ABC.s, Lymans book and some of Lee's book. I will read again. Also I think I am going to talk with someone in my area about reloading and getting a hand on tutorial. |
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I get cases that do that all the time in my Dillon gage. I keep a small piece of emery cloth on my bench, just a quick turn of the case head across the cloth usually fixes the problem.
My garage has a 20'X20' concrete slab in front of it that I shoot from, when the cases hit the concrete it would ding the rim, now I throw a tarp down. |
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OK I am going to adjust my die down a little more and file the rims to see if they are hanging up. Otherwise it sounds like this small discrepency is not too big of a deal. Is this correct. Or should just not reload these unless I can get them perfect. These were all fired out of a SA Ar15, This is a normal thing especially if you buy once fired brass . I it does not drop into the case gauge toss it as it is not worth the effort to make it fit . As also suggested put the rim into the gauge as well and if it does not go it is not worth the effort . If you start filing the rims you may create more problems . I get once fired for $35 a thousand and I expect to toss 20-40 a bag and could care less . |
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