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Posted: 2/8/2013 12:05:12 PM EDT
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So my father passed away 8 months ago and he had a business that has been in the family since 1930. We were cleaning out the basement of the business and found an old Kickerbocker 16 guage double barrell shotgun that had been sawed off, both barrells and stock. Dang thing looks like a bad ass pistol from the western times.
Anyway, all the items in the basement were left to me as part of just general personal property, no paperwork on the gun, its never been registered to anyone before, I think you could buy these things in hardware stores back then. But my question is, since its a sawed off shotgun, and those are illegal, but I didn't saw it off, and its basically an antique, that does fire....what do I do? If I get caught shooting it somewhere (no, not for hunting) for fun, and a cop sees me could I get it taken away? Its locked up in a safe place right now, but I'm not really sure what I can do with it, if its illegal. Even though it was obviously cut down to illegal size about 70 years ago. I'm in Indiana, if that matters. |
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Sounds like you have an illegal AOW. Not an AOW since it originally had a stock. It's a SBS. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Signed swede1986 Dei Gratia Suecorum, Gothorum et Vandalorum Rex. King of Norway and Denmark, Grand Prince of Finland, Duke of Scania, Estonia, Livonia, Karelia, Bremen, Verden, Stettin, Pomerania, Kashubia and Wendia, Prince of Rügen, Lord of Ingria and Wismar, Count Palatine of the Rhine, Duke of Bavaria, Jülich, Cleves and Berg. |
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you could just pull the barrels and stock off and keep the action separate from them (completely separate residence). send in a form 1 to build an SBS. stamp your info on it. then go get the barrel/ stock and put them back on. there is nothing illegal about a bare action. just remember this is internet advice. so, take it for what it may or may not be worth. YMMV
you could also have a good gunsmith put two new barrel in the mono-block to bring it to legal length and then have a new buttstock fitted.....not going to be cheap. IMHO the most important thing is to get the barrels and PG off and nowhere near the thing. advntrjnky |
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Quoted: Quoted: Sounds like you have an illegal AOW. Not an AOW since it originally had a stock. It's a SBS. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Signed swede1986 Dei Gratia Suecorum, Gothorum et Vandalorum Rex. King of Norway and Denmark, Grand Prince of Finland, Duke of Scania, Estonia, Livonia, Karelia, Bremen, Verden, Stettin, Pomerania, Kashubia and Wendia, Prince of Rügen, Lord of Ingria and Wismar, Count Palatine of the Rhine, Duke of Bavaria, Jülich, Cleves and Berg. |
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Assuming the barrels are less then 18" and the overall length is less then 26", it's simply an illegal gun.
You have choices: 1. Turn it in to the local police, or to a gun buy-back program. If you don't feel good about dealing with the police, if you have a lawyer, have him do it. 2. Cut the receiver and barrels up in pieces with a saw. 3. Deactivate the gun. This would mean plugging or cutting large slot-like holes in the barrels under the hand guard, drilling out the firing pin holes with larger size drills or welding the firing pin holes closed. In other words rendering the gun forever incapable of being fired or returned to firing shape. My advice is option 2. What NOT to do: 1. Just sit on it. Possession is a Federal and State Felony crime. Just as an example of things that happen, you'd be amazed at the number of times people have small house fires and the firemen find "things". 2. Throw it in the water or otherwise get rid of it. Guns have a bad habit of washing up or turning back up. |
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Take the damn barrels off and have a friend hold them. If you want to keep it, go through the NFA process for a SBS. When you get the paperwork back, put it back together. Do not cut the receiver up. You can sell the receiver legally without the barrels attached. Having the barrel and receiver in your possession could be construed as constructive possession or something like that. |
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technically it is contraband.
From the ATF website FAQ Q: May a private citizen who owns an NFA firearm which is not registered have the firearm registered? No. The NFA permits only manufacturers, makers, and importers to register firearms. Mere possessors may not register firearms. An unregistered NFA firearm is a contraband firearm, and it is unlawful to possess the weapon. The possessor should contact the nearest ATF office to arrange for its disposition. [26 U.S.C. 5861(d)] Q: What can happen to someone who has an NFA firearm which is not registered to him? Violators may be fined not more than $250,000, and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. In addition, any vessel, vehicle or aircraft used to transport, conceal or possess an unregistered NFA firearm is subject to seizure and forfeiture, as is the weapon itself. [49 U.S.C. 781-788, 26 U.S.C. 5861 and 5872] Q: What should a person do if he or she comes into possession of an unregistered NFA firearm? Contact the nearest ATF office immediately. |
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Get rid of it ASAP. That's likely a mandatory prision sentence even if you inherited it. There is no grace period to think about it, it's in your possession.
To get rid of it: 1. Mount it to a table, tree, etc. in a safe shooting area. 2. Plug the barrels with a tight wood dowel, limb, similar item 3. tie a string to the trigger(s) 4. load it with the hottest possible shells 5. Start the video camera 6. Get back and see what happens 7. Put the video on Utube and a link here |
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Dude you are screwed, indiana = no sbs straight fucked maybe not really though; buy new barrels and stock set ASAP. like take it up the ass for over night shipping ASAP. And maybe get a MOD to delete this thread. There are cops/feds on here not to include the gov't planted spies for you tinfoil folk |
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Too late, BATF is on the way to your door, hide the dog. Not funny. The whole dog thing is played out too. OP, you should not be posting this stuff.....so obviously your not smart enough to know what should have been done, or your fishing for illegal advice. |
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Get rid of it ASAP. That's likely a mandatory prision sentence even if you inherited it. There is no grace period to think about it, it's in your possession. To get rid of it: 1. Mount it to a table, tree, etc. in a safe shooting area. 2. Plug the barrels with a tight wood dowel, limb, similar item 3. tie a string to the trigger(s) 4. load it with the hottest possible shells 5. Start the video camera 6. Get back and see what happens 7. Put the video on Utube and a link here A bit of a drama queen approach, don't you think? OP, strip the gun of its barrel and stock and keep them in seperate homes. Sell off the receiver on Gunbroker and then the stock and barrel. Easy peasy and you get a little cash out of it. |
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you could just pull the barrels and stock off and keep the action separate from them (completely separate residence). send in a form 1 to build an SBS. stamp your info on it. then go get the barrel/ stock and put them back on. there is nothing illegal about a bare action. just remember this is internet advice. so, take it for what it may or may not be worth. YMMV you could also have a good gunsmith put two new barrel in the mono-block to bring it to legal length and then have a new buttstock fitted.....not going to be cheap. IMHO the most important thing is to get the barrels and PG off and nowhere near the thing. advntrjnky this! do it know! |
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Disassemble then toss parts in nearest river or lake. This will save you a lot of trouble, and you don't have to saw anything up. Not just picking on you but everyone who has been advising disassembly, destruction or other secret disposition. Under evidence protection law, you have no legal option other than to turn it into law enforcement. Any activity done in an attempt to modify the gun or circumvent its discovery by law enforcement can be a serious crime. A contraband gun is forever contraband, there's no legal workaround here. If you discover a contraband firearm in your possession, it is, unfortunately, stuck to you like superglue. You have no legal choice but to contact ATF. |
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Since it is so old, you could always send it to ATF and request an NFA exemption. There was a thread on here a while back where someone did just that with an old Winchester lever action SBR. The exemption was granted in their case. Problem is he is in a non SBS state. I would get rid of the barrels. |
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Since it is so old, you could always send it to ATF and request an NFA exemption. There was a thread on here a while back where someone did just that with an old Winchester lever action SBR. The exemption was granted in their case. Problem is he is in a non SBS state. I would get rid of the barrels. It's not an SBS if the ATF grants him an NFA exemption. |
| An SBS isn't even legal in Indiana if you go through proper channels. Machine gun, short barreled rifle, suppressor, AOW, all ok. Just no short barreled shotguns. Get rid of it ASAP, like turn it in to the police department get rid of it. There's already record here of you having it in your possession, fix that in a hurry. |
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An SBS isn't even legal in Indiana if you go through proper channels. Machine gun, short barreled rifle, suppressor, AOW, all ok. Just no short barreled shotguns. Get rid of it ASAP, like turn it in to the police department get rid of it. There's already record here of you having it in your possession, fix that in a hurry. If he sends it to the ATF and requests an exemption then either the ATF denies it and destroys the weapon, or they grant it and it's not a short barrel shotgun. It would be exempt from the NFA entirely. He'd have to take it up with the state to determine whether or not the NFA exemption makes the firearm exempt from state law as well. Anyway, it's worth a shot and his only chance at legally keeping it. |
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I gave it to the local FBI office. They are going to hold it until I decide if I want to go through the paperwork with ATF. Plus they are having it checked to see if its a relic or curio they said.
They were very nice about it. I went in and told them what I found, they asked where it was, and I told them exactly where it was, a guy followed me to the barn, picked it up, gave me a reciept of custody, his card, and said he would call ina week or two with more information after he had it checked out. Probably won't see it again, but no big deal. Not that I really wanted to have it laying around. No fun if I can't go out and shoot it! |
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I gave it to the local FBI office. They are going to hold it until I decide if I want to go through the paperwork with ATF. Plus they are having it checked to see if its a relic or curio they said. They were very nice about it. I went in and told them what I found, they asked where it was, and I told them exactly where it was, a guy followed me to the barn, picked it up, gave me a reciept of custody, his card, and said he would call ina week or two with more information after he had it checked out. Probably won't see it again, but no big deal. Not that I really wanted to have it laying around. No fun if I can't go out and shoot it! But I thought they would kill your dog? At least that is what I have heard from all the internet drama queens... Serious question, why couldn't you just take the short barrel off and order a new legal length one? |
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I gave it to the local FBI office. They are going to hold it until I decide if I want to go through the paperwork with ATF. Plus they are having it checked to see if its a relic or curio they said. They were very nice about it. I went in and told them what I found, they asked where it was, and I told them exactly where it was, a guy followed me to the barn, picked it up, gave me a reciept of custody, his card, and said he would call ina week or two with more information after he had it checked out. Probably won't see it again, but no big deal. Not that I really wanted to have it laying around. No fun if I can't go out and shoot it! But I thought they would kill your dog? At least that is what I have heard from all the internet drama queens... Serious question, why couldn't you just take the short barrel off and order a new legal length one? Because, when he discovered it, it was in an illegal state of being; in that it was an unregistered short-barrel shotgun. You cannot, legally, take something that was illegal to possess and make it legal. The law states that once illegal, always illegal. The only thing that can start out illegal and become legal are government-endorsed immigrants who'll most likely vote for a particular party. |
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I gave it to the local FBI office. They are going to hold it until I decide if I want to go through the paperwork with ATF. Plus they are having it checked to see if its a relic or curio they said. They were very nice about it. I went in and told them what I found, they asked where it was, and I told them exactly where it was, a guy followed me to the barn, picked it up, gave me a reciept of custody, his card, and said he would call ina week or two with more information after he had it checked out. Probably won't see it again, but no big deal. Not that I really wanted to have it laying around. No fun if I can't go out and shoot it! But I thought they would kill your dog? At least that is what I have heard from all the internet drama queens... Serious question, why couldn't you just take the short barrel off and order a new legal length one? Because, when he discovered it, it was in an illegal state of being; in that it was an unregistered short-barrel shotgun. You cannot, legally, take something that was illegal to possess and make it legal. The law states that once illegal, always illegal. The only thing that can start out illegal and become legal are government-endorsed immigrants who'll most likely vote for a particular party. Then by that logic he wouldn't be able to register it as an SBS. |
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I see... I guess I just see it as "no harm, no foul". If I found an SBRed AR in the attic, that thing would have a new upper in a heartbeat and I would have a new AR. I think I would do the same with the shotgun, availability of parts dictating of course. Except when that SBR was used in a murder 20 years ago. You've ruined the firearm's evidentiary value, which is at the heart of why it is illegal to tamper it. In not notifying the authorities, you have done damage to a criminal investigation and possible prosecution. Now, in this case, you could not have known that it was a murder weapon, but you did reasonably know it was contraband in that configuration and failed to notify the proper authorities. Anyway, getting caught is another issue, but there it is. |
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Quoted: If he sends it to the ATF and requests an exemption then either the ATF denies it and destroys the weapon, or they grant it and it's not a short barrel shotgun. It would be exempt from the NFA entirely. He'd have to take it up with the state to determine whether or not the NFA exemption makes the firearm exempt from state law as well. Anyway, it's worth a shot and his only chance at legally keeping it. the fed law and state law can differ. If the definition is written into state code w/o reference to the usc definitions(most likely), the atf exemption will not apply. So and exemption under fed law is not a get around to state law. |
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I gave it to the local FBI office. They are going to hold it until I decide if I want to go through the paperwork with ATF. Plus they are having it checked to see if its a relic or curio they said. They were very nice about it. I went in and told them what I found, they asked where it was, and I told them exactly where it was, a guy followed me to the barn, picked it up, gave me a reciept of custody, his card, and said he would call ina week or two with more information after he had it checked out. Probably won't see it again, but no big deal. Not that I really wanted to have it laying around. No fun if I can't go out and shoot it! But I thought they would kill your dog? At least that is what I have heard from all the internet drama queens... Serious question, why couldn't you just take the short barrel off and order a new legal length one? Because, when he discovered it, it was in an illegal state of being; in that it was an unregistered short-barrel shotgun. You cannot, legally, take something that was illegal to possess and make it legal. The law states that once illegal, always illegal. The only thing that can start out illegal and become legal are government-endorsed immigrants who'll most likely vote for a particular party. Then by that logic he wouldn't be able to register it as an SBS. Exactly. He can't legally register it as an SBS. |
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I gave it to the local FBI office. They are going to hold it until I decide if I want to go through the paperwork with ATF. Plus they are having it checked to see if its a relic or curio they said. They were very nice about it. I went in and told them what I found, they asked where it was, and I told them exactly where it was, a guy followed me to the barn, picked it up, gave me a reciept of custody, his card, and said he would call ina week or two with more information after he had it checked out. Probably won't see it again, but no big deal. Not that I really wanted to have it laying around. No fun if I can't go out and shoot it! But I thought they would kill your dog? At least that is what I have heard from all the internet drama queens... Serious question, why couldn't you just take the short barrel off and order a new legal length one? Because, when he discovered it, it was in an illegal state of being; in that it was an unregistered short-barrel shotgun. You cannot, legally, take something that was illegal to possess and make it legal. The law states that once illegal, always illegal. The only thing that can start out illegal and become legal are government-endorsed immigrants who'll most likely vote for a particular party. Then by that logic he wouldn't be able to register it as an SBS. Exactly. He can't legally register it as an SBS. They why would they give him the option to register it? |
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I gave it to the local FBI office. They are going to hold it until I decide if I want to go through the paperwork with ATF. Plus they are having it checked to see if its a relic or curio they said. They were very nice about it. I went in and told them what I found, they asked where it was, and I told them exactly where it was, a guy followed me to the barn, picked it up, gave me a reciept of custody, his card, and said he would call ina week or two with more information after he had it checked out. Probably won't see it again, but no big deal. Not that I really wanted to have it laying around. No fun if I can't go out and shoot it! But I thought they would kill your dog? At least that is what I have heard from all the internet drama queens... Serious question, why couldn't you just take the short barrel off and order a new legal length one? Because, when he discovered it, it was in an illegal state of being; in that it was an unregistered short-barrel shotgun. You cannot, legally, take something that was illegal to possess and make it legal. The law states that once illegal, always illegal. The only thing that can start out illegal and become legal are government-endorsed immigrants who'll most likely vote for a particular party. Then by that logic he wouldn't be able to register it as an SBS. Exactly. He can't legally register it as an SBS. They why would they give him the option to register it? He turned it over to the FBI, not the BATFE. The FBI isn't exactly known as subject-matter experts when it comes to firearms law. Coincidentally, there are a numbr of BATFE employees who don't know firearms law, either. (Such as the BATFE Industry Operations Inspector who once asked me if the Kel-Tec PLR-16 across the hall at a gunshow, complete with 90-round drum, was either an unregistered SBR or Destructive Device. How the fuck am I supposed to know, without access to either the serial number or the registry, what guns are, or, are not, on it? Dumbass had never even heard of the PLR-16 and assumed it was some kind of sawed-off AR.) |
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