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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Short 5.56 (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/7/2014 8:46:03 PM EDT
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Just like the title says, I'm looking at short cans for use on a short barrel. While the exact length is TBD, between 10.3 and 12.5, I want to keep OAL as short as possible, even if it means giving up some sound suppression. I'm not willing to give up more ballistics so shorter barrel length is out. I will probably use the LWRC short stock as well.
It needs to be relatively available, and as short as possible. What's out there? |
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My vote goes to the M4SDK
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/430802_Griffin_Armament_M4SDK_Initial_Impressions.html |
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OPSINC (Allen Engineering): http://www.adcofirearms.com/detailpics/mym4-spackage.jpg Brevis Delta P: http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/GfdsrlfF5s4/maxresdefault.jpg The M4S hadn't been made by Ops in quite some time. It's also never been made by Allen Engineering. |
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Just like the title says, I'm looking at short cans for use on a short barrel. While the exact length is TBD, between 10.3 and 12.5, I want to keep OAL as short as possible, even if it means giving up some sound suppression. I'm not willing to give up more ballistics so shorter barrel length is out. I will probably use the LWRC short stock as well. It needs to be relatively available, and as short as possible. What's out there? I would change that language to "and I know I'm making a huge compromise regarding sound suppression" - just so you have the appropriate expectations. I think the most impactful decision you'll be making is QD vs thread on. Thread on variants keep weight and length low/short, without costing you 2"+ of baffles, and adding 3-4oz of muzzle device weight. Check out SilencerCo's video of their new K cans to get an idea of sound suppression compromise vs standard cans. |
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The MMS hadn't been made by Ops in quite some time. It's also never been made by Allen Engineering. Quoted:
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OPSINC (Allen Engineering): http://www.adcofirearms.com/detailpics/mym4-spackage.jpg Brevis Delta P: http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/GfdsrlfF5s4/maxresdefault.jpg The MMS hadn't been made by Ops in quite some time. It's also never been made by Allen Engineering. So that's why I couldn't find it on the website 
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I don't know how short you're looking to go, so I'll give you a list of 6" and shorter cans.
Innovative Arms Grunt Mini: 5", 14oz Surefire Mini: 5", 14.5oz AAC Mini-4: 5.25", 13.5oz Griffin M4SDK: 5.75", 14.5oz SiCo Saker-K: 5.8", 14.7oz Gemtech Trek/Trek-T/GMT-556LE: 6", 17.3/10.3/12.3oz Allen Engineering AEM2: 6", 15oz Elite Iron CQC: 6", 17.5oz |
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I would change that language to "and I know I'm making a huge compromise regarding sound suppression" - just so you have the appropriate expectations. I think the most impactful decision you'll be making is QD vs thread on. Thread on variants keep weight and length low/short, without costing you 2"+ of baffles, and adding 3-4oz of muzzle device weight. Check out SilencerCo's video of their new K cans to get an idea of sound suppression compromise vs standard cans. Quoted:
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Just like the title says, I'm looking at short cans for use on a short barrel. While the exact length is TBD, between 10.3 and 12.5, I want to keep OAL as short as possible, even if it means giving up some sound suppression. I'm not willing to give up more ballistics so shorter barrel length is out. I will probably use the LWRC short stock as well. It needs to be relatively available, and as short as possible. What's out there? I would change that language to "and I know I'm making a huge compromise regarding sound suppression" - just so you have the appropriate expectations. I think the most impactful decision you'll be making is QD vs thread on. Thread on variants keep weight and length low/short, without costing you 2"+ of baffles, and adding 3-4oz of muzzle device weight. Check out SilencerCo's video of their new K cans to get an idea of sound suppression compromise vs standard cans. Good advice ^ |
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I have a Brevis compact, and yes it is tiny, yes it is great on a 12" barrel for OAL, yes it is tough. That's where my happiness with the can ends. I'm gonna dump it for a SakerK. 16 oz and $800 for a <4" can? 
There's a very real market for a tiny can like that, but no one will pay the $800 (Brevis C) -$1200 (SF micro) they cost. Ops had the right idea when their M4S was priced at $200. |
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I know I'm giving up suppression, but the old OPS M4S was the right concept for what I believe I want. The project is to see if I can keep an upper under 18 inches with some suppression. Since reflex cans need some barrel to set back over, this is a harder question than simply the OAL of the can itself. I know mounting systems add variation and that makes this question even tougher.
Goal: Total upper under 18 inches. As long of a barrel as I can get, to stay under the target goal with a suppressor. I want whatever ballistics I can salvage. I'm not worried about sharing the suppressor or anything else as it will be a rather permanent home. I'm not wanting to go integral or anything trick, must be somewhat commonly available parts. |
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I know I'm giving up suppression, but the old OPS M4S was the right concept for what I believe I want. The project is to see if I can keep an upper under 18 inches with some suppression. Since reflex cans need some barrel to set back over, this is a harder question than simply the OAL of the can itself. I know mounting systems add variation and that makes this question even tougher. Goal: Total upper under 18 inches. As long of a barrel as I can get, to stay under the target goal with a suppressor. I'm not worried about sharing the suppressor or anything else as it will be a rather permanent home. I'm not wanting to go integral or anything trick, must be somewhat commonly available parts. I'm not sure anything like that is available commercially. I'm sue there is a custom company who can build what you want. IDK what your bbl length is, but a 14.5" and a Mini-4 (adds 2.8") would be my choice and it would be under 19". |
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Think of it more as getting the can that will net the desired length and then figure out the barrel length to keep everything under 18 inches. Upper receiver and all. So the Mini-4 adds 2.8 past the end of the muzzle? That's the type of info I'm looking for. That's what AAC lists on their site. |
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That's what AAC lists on their site. Quoted:
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Think of it more as getting the can that will net the desired length and then figure out the barrel length to keep everything under 18 inches. Upper receiver and all. So the Mini-4 adds 2.8 past the end of the muzzle? That's the type of info I'm looking for. That's what AAC lists on their site. Yes. On my DDMK18, it has a 10.3" barrel and the can only adds 2.8" of length (since it indexes over the muzzle device) so that puts me at almost 13" with the can. It is also a quieter set up compared to the Surefire series (the mounting system is usually what makes people go one way or the other on this one). I think the Mini4 really is a great can... I whore this picture a lot, but it will help show the upper in length. 
The mini4 is short enough, you could even look at 11.5" options which would be a little more quiet and have more velocity and your OAL goal would still work. |
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16 oz and $800 for a <4" can?
There's a very real market for a tiny can like that, but no one will pay the $800 (Brevis C) -$1200 (SF micro) they cost. Ops had the right idea when their M4S was priced at $200. Quoted:
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I have a Brevis compact, and yes it is tiny, yes it is great on a 12" barrel for OAL, yes it is tough. That's where my happiness with the can ends. I'm gonna dump it for a SakerK. 16 oz and $800 for a <4" can?
There's a very real market for a tiny can like that, but no one will pay the $800 (Brevis C) -$1200 (SF micro) they cost. Ops had the right idea when their M4S was priced at $200. yep. i wish i had bought 4 instead of the one i have... |
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I don't know how short you're looking to go, so I'll give you a list of 6" and shorter cans. Innovative Arms Grunt Mini: 5", 14oz Surefire Mini: 5", 14.5oz AAC Mini-4: 5.25", 13.5oz Griffin M4SDK: 5.75", 14.5oz SiCo Saker-K: 5.8", 14.7oz Gemtech Trek/Trek-T/GMT-556LE: 6", 17.3/10.3/12.3oz Allen Engineering AEM2: 6", 15oz Elite Iron CQC: 6", 17.5oz SureFire's legacy line included a 556 Micro at just 4" but I'm not sure if they kept that size when they moved on to the SOCOM line. I don't see it on their web site, but it might exist. My 556 Mini is short enough. You lose a LOT of suppression going down to 4" ... http://www.surefire.com/suppressor-comparison-chart The 4" Micro is 7 dB louder (148 dB) than the 5" Mini (141 dB) on a 10.5" SBR. That's pretty damn loud. It wasn't a suppressor marketed toward casual users ... it was for door-kickers who needed to stay ultra short and wanted something to take the bite out of the noise. |
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SureFire's legacy line included a 556 Micro at just 4" but I'm not sure if they kept that size when they moved on to the SOCOM line. I don't see it on their web site, but it might exist. My 556 Mini is short enough. You lose a LOT of suppression going down to 4" ... http://www.surefire.com/suppressor-comparison-chart The 4" Micro is 7 dB louder (148 dB) than the 5" Mini (141 dB) on a 10.5" SBR. That's pretty damn loud. It wasn't a suppressor marketed toward casual users ... it was for door-kickers who needed to stay ultra short and wanted something to take the bite out of the noise. Quoted:
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I don't know how short you're looking to go, so I'll give you a list of 6" and shorter cans. Innovative Arms Grunt Mini: 5", 14oz Surefire Mini: 5", 14.5oz AAC Mini-4: 5.25", 13.5oz Griffin M4SDK: 5.75", 14.5oz SiCo Saker-K: 5.8", 14.7oz Gemtech Trek/Trek-T/GMT-556LE: 6", 17.3/10.3/12.3oz Allen Engineering AEM2: 6", 15oz Elite Iron CQC: 6", 17.5oz SureFire's legacy line included a 556 Micro at just 4" but I'm not sure if they kept that size when they moved on to the SOCOM line. I don't see it on their web site, but it might exist. My 556 Mini is short enough. You lose a LOT of suppression going down to 4" ... http://www.surefire.com/suppressor-comparison-chart The 4" Micro is 7 dB louder (148 dB) than the 5" Mini (141 dB) on a 10.5" SBR. That's pretty damn loud. It wasn't a suppressor marketed toward casual users ... it was for door-kickers who needed to stay ultra short and wanted something to take the bite out of the noise. I love my Micro. I mainly use it on my PS90, but it doesn't bother me at all to shoot on my 10.5" 5.56mm guns. Seems quieter at the ear to me than my -212. Would buy another one if I could find it. 
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I know I'm giving up suppression, but the old OPS M4S was the right concept for what I believe I want. The project is to see if I can keep an upper under 18 inches with some suppression. Since reflex cans need some barrel to set back over, this is a harder question than simply the OAL of the can itself. I know mounting systems add variation and that makes this question even tougher. Goal: Total upper under 18 inches. As long of a barrel as I can get, to stay under the target goal with a suppressor. I want whatever ballistics I can salvage. I'm not worried about sharing the suppressor or anything else as it will be a rather permanent home. I'm not wanting to go integral or anything trick, must be somewhat commonly available parts. If that's what you want you can have a regular size can on a 10.5" or 12" gun. In the picture below is a 16" a 12" with a YHM can and a 10.5" with an AAC M42K. (some of the stocks are extended a little) Both SBR's are shorter than the 16" rifle. Is that what you are talking about? Or am I misunderstanding you? 
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Gemtech Trek-T. It provides full suppression vs "mini" can, yet is short and lighter than the rest. This would be my pick. ETA: I have an all titanium 7" 308 can (12 oz). I haven't shot it at night except for a few shots with 300 BO subsonic, but have never seen it spark. |
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This would be my pick. ETA: I have an all titanium 7" 308 can (12 oz). I haven't shot it at night except for a few shots with 300 BO subsonic, but have never seen it spark. Quoted:
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Gemtech Trek-T. It provides full suppression vs "mini" can, yet is short and lighter than the rest. This would be my pick. ETA: I have an all titanium 7" 308 can (12 oz). I haven't shot it at night except for a few shots with 300 BO subsonic, but have never seen it spark. Record a few magazines at night (not necessarily dumping the mags but a good rate of fire) and you will see some sparks. Definitely not dogging them, but everything has a trade off. It seems every time someone gets into the metallurgy there begins a huge debate so I won't bark up that tree (the Mumbo-jumbo is way above my intellect anyway). |
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Record a few magazines at night (not necessarily dumping the mags but a good rate of fire) and you will see some sparks. Definitely not dogging them, but everything has a trade off. It seems every time someone gets into the metallurgy there begins a huge debate so I won't bark up that tree (the Mumbo-jumbo is way above my intellect anyway). Quoted:
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Gemtech Trek-T. It provides full suppression vs "mini" can, yet is short and lighter than the rest. This would be my pick. ETA: I have an all titanium 7" 308 can (12 oz). I haven't shot it at night except for a few shots with 300 BO subsonic, but have never seen it spark. Record a few magazines at night (not necessarily dumping the mags but a good rate of fire) and you will see some sparks. Definitely not dogging them, but everything has a trade off. It seems every time someone gets into the metallurgy there begins a huge debate so I won't bark up that tree (the Mumbo-jumbo is way above my intellect anyway). I have a gemtech GMT-556 LE (basically the same as a Trek-T) it does spark but not often. I only notice when im indoors but have not shot it at night yet also appears to spark once its been worked hard like 100+ rounds. IMO more than offset by the size and weight. |
| I love my Mini-4 on my 10.5" uppers. Good combo of weight, length, and price. But, I haven't researched all the similar available options lately so I don't know if that is the one I'd buy today...just saying I like mine quite a lot. Personally, I think worrying about how much sound reduction you'll get is kind of pointless on a 10.x barreled 5.56 gun (they're all going to still be fairly loud). I actually think my Mini-4 is possibly a little quieter to the shooter than some full size cans due to less back pressure pushing less gas out the ejection port. |
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That's what AAC lists on their site. Quoted:
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Think of it more as getting the can that will net the desired length and then figure out the barrel length to keep everything under 18 inches. Upper receiver and all. So the Mini-4 adds 2.8 past the end of the muzzle? That's the type of info I'm looking for. That's what AAC lists on their site. I think that length added value is how far it extends beyond the end of their mount, not the actual muzzle of the barrel. |
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I think that length added value is how far it extends beyond the end of their mount, not the actual muzzle of the barrel. Quoted:
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Think of it more as getting the can that will net the desired length and then figure out the barrel length to keep everything under 18 inches. Upper receiver and all. So the Mini-4 adds 2.8 past the end of the muzzle? That's the type of info I'm looking for. That's what AAC lists on their site. I think that length added value is how far it extends beyond the end of their mount, not the actual muzzle of the barrel. You're right. I misstated that. |
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If you have 18" to work with as far as storage, why not just get the can that fits your needs and remove it while stored? I think you will be super disappointed performance wise if you go with some super short can because of a storage requirement.
To me, I'm not even that impressed with the Specwar and Saker K. I'm sure its a great can, but its what, an inch shorter? Not worth the compromise in sound suppression to me. |
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If you have 18" to work with as far as storage, why not just get the can that fits your needs and remove it while stored? I think you will be super disappointed performance wise if you go with some super short can because of a storage requirement. To me, I'm not even that impressed with the Specwar and Saker K. I'm sure its a great can, but its what, an inch shorter? Not worth the compromise in sound suppression to me. Depends on what you're using the can for. If you're a DB whore in search of bragging rights for the quietest can on a static range then short cans suck. If you want something that takes the edge of the blast reducing your signature (tactical suppressor) then shorter cans kick ass. |
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I love my Mini-4 on my 10.5" uppers. Good combo of weight, length, and price. But, I haven't researched all the similar available options lately so I don't know if that is the one I'd buy today...just saying I like mine quite a lot. Personally, I think worrying about how much sound reduction you'll get is kind of pointless on a 10.x barreled 5.56 gun (they're all going to still be fairly loud). I actually think my Mini-4 is possibly a little quieter to the shooter than some full size cans due to less back pressure pushing less gas out the ejection port. Owning both the Mini4 and the M4-2000, I can second the fact that the perceived sound level at the shooters ear is not noticeably different for me when on my 11.5" or 14.5" upper. I believe the silencer research forum confirmed this with lower decibel number at the shooters ear for the smaller cans. Here is how I see it: If I am shooting at the range or in a class, I will be wearing hearing protection anyway. The full size 5.56 cans on longer uppers still aren't technically hearing safe anyway (at least not for high volume shooting), so even if I'm shooting by myself or with other suppressed shooters I should still be wearing hearing protection. The weight savings you definitely will feel after a day of shooting. The added decibels? Not so much. Also, for a home defense setup, the more compact size will enhance maneuverability around corners and tight spaces and, again, the decibel difference would not be noticed under those circumstances. If I had it to do over again I would own two Mini4's instead of one Mini4 and one M4-2000. |
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Depends on what you're using the can for. If you're a DB whore in search of bragging rights for the quietest can on a static range then short cans suck. If you want something that takes the edge of the blast reducing your signature (tactical suppressor) then shorter cans kick ass. Quoted:
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If you have 18" to work with as far as storage, why not just get the can that fits your needs and remove it while stored? I think you will be super disappointed performance wise if you go with some super short can because of a storage requirement. To me, I'm not even that impressed with the Specwar and Saker K. I'm sure its a great can, but its what, an inch shorter? Not worth the compromise in sound suppression to me. Depends on what you're using the can for. If you're a DB whore in search of bragging rights for the quietest can on a static range then short cans suck. If you want something that takes the edge of the blast reducing your signature (tactical suppressor) then shorter cans kick ass. This. I had been looking at mini4 but because I have both sakers and many guns with mounts I will be getting a K. I put my 5.56 saker on a my 16" Robison arms XCR-L and just tried doing some home clearing drills with it. And damn it was a long pig and a bitch to maneuver with. Put it on my 10.5sbr much eaiser and the K model will help more. Plus that xcr weighed a shit ton and was even worse with the can. |
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I wish the Mini 4 were a bit lighter but it is the can for me with CQB type rifles. I will be getting another. That having been said, I am really just waiting for a deal or a sale on them... You know they have a 200$ store credit deal going on right now right? |
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I wish the Mini 4 were a bit lighter but it is the can for me with CQB type rifles. I will be getting another. That having been said, I am really just waiting for a deal or a sale on them... Mini 4- 5.25" length 13.5oz weight 22db reduction Gemtech Trek T- 5.70" length 10.3oz weight 29db reduction or for 2 more ounces, (still less than your mini4) you get the beefier blast baffle of the 556LE, so lighter and less than one half inch longer for real sound suppression, just doesn't make sense to me but whatever... |
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Mini 4 5.25" length 13.5oz weight 22db reduction Gemtech Trek T 5.70" length 10.3oz weight 29db reduction or for 2 more ounces, (still less than your mini4) you get the beefier blast baffle of the 556LE, so lighter and less than one half inch longer for real sound suppression, just doesn't make sense to me but whatever... Quoted:
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I wish the Mini 4 were a bit lighter but it is the can for me with CQB type rifles. I will be getting another. That having been said, I am really just waiting for a deal or a sale on them... Mini 4 5.25" length 13.5oz weight 22db reduction Gemtech Trek T 5.70" length 10.3oz weight 29db reduction or for 2 more ounces, (still less than your mini4) you get the beefier blast baffle of the 556LE, so lighter and less than one half inch longer for real sound suppression, just doesn't make sense to me but whatever... Isn't the mini 4 actually going to be heavier because you have to run their mount as opposed to just threading it on?? |
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Isn't the mini 4 actually going to be heavier because you have to run their mount as opposed to just threading it on?? Quoted:
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I wish the Mini 4 were a bit lighter but it is the can for me with CQB type rifles. I will be getting another. That having been said, I am really just waiting for a deal or a sale on them... Mini 4 5.25" length 13.5oz weight 22db reduction Gemtech Trek T 5.70" length 10.3oz weight 29db reduction or for 2 more ounces, (still less than your mini4) you get the beefier blast baffle of the 556LE, so lighter and less than one half inch longer for real sound suppression, just doesn't make sense to me but whatever... Isn't the mini 4 actually going to be heavier because you have to run their mount as opposed to just threading it on?? For me, it is just like I stated... I do wish the Mini 4 was lighter, but the OAL is my focus for the type of can it is...no doubt it is a niche can. I also do not prefer thread on cans for rifles. I know the benefits and drawbacks for both sides and my preference is based on that. As far as suppression goes, it has been stated, documented, recorded, and talked in this thread about the effectiveness of the can resulting in more blowback and also leading to a louder can, perceived by the shooter and measured at the shooter's ear. I like the Mini4 for exactly what it does, though I do wish it were a little lighter, it's overall size and package it offers is a good silencer. There are many options and it is personal preference but I also do not want a titanium rifle can. To each their own. Doesn't make your can bad or better, just my preference different than yours. |
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I dig it, no ti and no direct thread.
Then why not the saker k, exactly one half inch longer and one ounce heavier, vastly superior mounting than that junk 51T and true 29DB suppression instead of 22DB? Not baggin on your preference that's all good just comparing specs, to me yesterdays so called mini cans like the mini4 and SF mini are now completely obsolete when you have options that are virtually the same size and weight with vastly superior DB suppression, why choose a blast inhibitor when you can have an actual suppressor without any real size and weight penalty? |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Short 5.56 (Page 1 of 2)
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