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Posted: 11/27/2009 11:10:27 PM EDT
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Are small base dies more likely to get stuck cases? I'm still working on my first set of handloads and tonight I got my first stuck case. It was small base dies. The case was well lubed.
I kind of got everything at the spur of the moment, and so I had to rely on the salesman's opinion for which set of dies to get. 
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Yes SB dies are more likely to get a stuck case because they are smaller in the area that a piece of brass gets stuck at.
What kind of case lube were you using? Hornady One Shot? Although many people use SB dies with 5.56 chambers they are not needed, SB dies were built for auto loading rifles with SAAMI .223 chambers(like the Mini 14 and some AR's) that are usually much tighter than than a NATO 5.56 chamber which I have never seen(or heard of) a round with the proper headspace getting stuck in, if FL sized with regular FL dies. |
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In the past I've had to run my brass through a regular base die before getting them to run in my small base die. I don't have to do it all the time. Give that a try. .02 -Arbiter If your chamber is so large that a fired piece of brass from it will not size without going through a regular FL die first I highly doubt you need be using SB dies to begin with, think about it. |
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Yes SB dies are more likely to get a stuck case because they are smaller in the area that a piece of brass gets stuck at. What kind of case lube were you using? Hornady One Shot? Although many people use SB dies with 5.56 chambers they are not needed, SB dies were built for auto loading rifles with SAAMI .223 chambers(like the Mini 14 and some AR's) that are usually much tighter than than a NATO 5.56 chamber which I have never seen(or heard of) a round with the proper headspace getting stuck in, if FL sized with regular FL dies. Lube = CLP. Is this a bad choice??? Yes I have a 5.56 NATO chamber, so I guess I'll get rid of the SB dies and get regular ones. I was noticing that on the few cartridges I was able to complete it was pretty tough to get the bullet in the top of the case before seating. Side note... Should I crimp when seating or not? |
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Yes SB dies are more likely to get a stuck case because they are smaller in the area that a piece of brass gets stuck at. What kind of case lube were you using? Hornady One Shot? Although many people use SB dies with 5.56 chambers they are not needed, SB dies were built for auto loading rifles with SAAMI .223 chambers(like the Mini 14 and some AR's) that are usually much tighter than than a NATO 5.56 chamber which I have never seen(or heard of) a round with the proper headspace getting stuck in, if FL sized with regular FL dies. Lube = CLP. Is this a bad choice??? Yes I have a 5.56 NATO chamber, so I guess I'll get rid of the SB dies and get regular ones. I was noticing that on the few cartridges I was able to complete it was pretty tough to get the bullet in the top of the case before seating. Side note... Should I crimp when seating or not? Case lube for reloading, NOT CLP or weapons lube. |
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Yes SB dies are more likely to get a stuck case because they are smaller in the area that a piece of brass gets stuck at. What kind of case lube were you using? Hornady One Shot? Although many people use SB dies with 5.56 chambers they are not needed, SB dies were built for auto loading rifles with SAAMI .223 chambers(like the Mini 14 and some AR's) that are usually much tighter than than a NATO 5.56 chamber which I have never seen(or heard of) a round with the proper headspace getting stuck in, if FL sized with regular FL dies. Lube = CLP. Is this a bad choice??? Yes I have a 5.56 NATO chamber, so I guess I'll get rid of the SB dies and get regular ones. I was noticing that on the few cartridges I was able to complete it was pretty tough to get the bullet in the top of the case before seating. Side note... Should I crimp when seating or not? A high pressure lube is required. Not CLP. You can either wait to buy a lube such as Dillon's, Graf's, or Midway's spray lube, or Imperial Sizing Die Wax (the best lube on the planet for case sizing). If you can't wait, dig up the recipe for home made lube made from isopropyl alcohol and lanlolin bought at the pharmacy. If you don't follow this advice and decide to buy One Shot, read the instructions for its use and follow them to the letter. Otherwise you may be reporting back here about stuck cases, again. Crimping is an optional operation. Especially since this is your first batch, if you decide to crimp, do it as a separate operation from seating the bullet. Seat bullets in every case, then readjust the body die to crimp and back the seater stem out of contact with the bullet to finish. The small base dies are not influencing your bullet seating problem. Deburring the inside of the case mouth helps, especially when trying to seat flat base bullets. The 5.56 chamber likewise has nothing to do with the small base dies. All of the difference is in the chamber throat and leade, the chambers are identical in the body of the case. Since you have the small base dies, you might as well continue to use them. |
Use a proper case lube, spray lube is the easiest. FA lube from Midway, Dillon lube from Dillon. SB dies are not needed for loading 223 for an AR. SB dies will overwork your brass making it fail faster. Properly adjusted FL dies are all you need. Forget the myth in the Speer manuals. 
I use Hornady FL dies and a Lee FCD for when I want to crimp. Get a case gauge to set your sizing die. Read the 4 part Tutorial on reloading 223. Lots of good info there. |
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Tell us what store had clerk advise using CLP as a case lube? I gotta know.....
Get yourself a tin of Imperial Die Wax and never look back. Do not for get to lube the inside of the case neck. FOR GOD'S SAKE STAY AWAY from Hornday One Shot, that alone is a prescription for stuck cases especially for new reloaders. Dillon Spray Lube works well, but you have to let it set up.....Buy yourself a RCBS Stuck Case Remover Kit. Always good to have! Unless your 223 Brass was fired in a sloppy chambered MG there is no reason to use a Small Base Full Length Sizer Die at all. Get a Dillon Case gauge ( they are Stainless Steel vs Wilson being steel). Get a Full Length Sizer Die. I recomend a Redding with a carbide expander ball. |
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If you use Hornady One Shot just make sure you shake it well and often. I've never had a stuck case but came close a couple of times.
Seems that if you don't shake it well, you can spray the carrier rather than the lubricant. The carrier is a poor lubricant. I've had good luck with Hornady One Shot with the above warning. I prefer the Imperial Sizing Die Wax like most. |
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Ok. Here's the final assessment.
I got some of the dillon case lube and generously lubed a new case. This was a remington UMC case that had been tumbled to a nice shine. I ran it through the sizer once and it had a difficult time coming out, so I re-lubed it and tried to size it again, and it got stuck. I had bought an RCBS stuck case remover kit earlier in the day to get out the first stuck case, and so I had to use it again to get this one out. Then I changed over to this Imperial Wax. It worked like a charm I ended up making 40 cartridges with the following specs 35 remington UMC cases 5 American Eagle XM193 cases 22.2 grains of Hogdon Varget powder Federal Premium Match Grade small rifle primer 55 grain Sierra varminter soft point bullets I'm going to test these out tomorrow and I'll post a range report. Thanks! |
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I would not use small base dies unless you really need to. As stated above, they work the brass a lot more and will shorten your case life. I HAVE to use them for my 7.62x51 cases to go in my match grade M1A but, if I did not need to use them, I would not.... hell, if I could get away with neck sizing, I'd do that but, you just can't do that.
Some people don't even know that they're already using small base dies.... dillon, for example only sells small base dies if you buy rifle dies from them.... they don't tell you that but, they are. Take your time getting the brass prepped make sure everything is just right before you load anything.... my advice would be that if you're new to reloading, get a case gauge and make damned sure the case both, a) goes all the way down to the bottom notch of the gauge and sits completely flush...when you're done resizing it and, b) the length is correct. If you do all of that with full length dies, you should have ammo that works pretty well but, make sure you check the case gauge and don't rush through this process. When you load for a semi-auto rifle, case prep is the most important process in reloading them, IMHO. You can get away with a LOT of stuff loading for a bolt gun but, if you screw up the cases in a semi-auto rifle you will get ammo that will both hang up and not eject correctly. Also, I believe dryflash3 is correct in another thread where he states that some people get small base dies and have corrected problems of some folks not knowing how to set up their sizing dies in the first place.... I'd just get the case gauge and make sure you know how it works and to use it correctly, this should solve any and all problems before you even encounter them. I can't wait, a bud of mine is coming over and we're going to have a reloading fest today and throw some steaks on the grill and have a few beers. He's got about 300 175gr sierra match kings he wants to load up and, he doesn't have his, "reloading room" set up at his house yet so, we're going to do some loading in the garage today. We went out to Tiger Valley and shot the 1000yd range a few weeks ago and, my old M1A SuperMatch seemed to shoot better than his AR10 24" bbl custom he built that he was shooting his Federal Gold Medal Match.... I convinced him to quit paying over 1.50/rd and get his ass over to the garage. We had an, "A zone" steel set up at 800yds and we had a winter front blowing in.... 20mph wind gusts but, luckily the wind was blowing in at 1 o'clock so, I only had about 5min windage on my gun ( which is still about 40" at that range LOL ).... hearing that "CLANG" every shot... when he drove his suburban down to paint the steel again... you could hold your arm out as far as it would go and you could cover the entire suburban with your pinky nail..... Hell, 880yds is 1/2 mile. What a RUSH.... it just doesn't get much better than that to load 10 rounds and, "clang, clang, clang, clang" with a gas gun at that range. We had a bolt gunner that was shooting with us but, he had not put a chrono on his rounds and, he loaded them too light and, he was having trouble at the 800yd line with his loads.... bullets were getting unstable and were going everywhere for him.... hell, he was shooting 175s but, he only had them at about 2400fps... they just didn't reach before they went subsonic and got unstable. Can't wait to get back there in a few weeks.... T.J. is great. I'm new here to this forum but, I've heard that T.J. comes here quite a bit and has a login but, I don't know what it is. He's got a great range and he's good people though, I can say that without a doubt. Saw him at the Dallas gun show yesterday too. LOL |
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Ok. Here's the final assessment. I got some of the dillon case lube and generously lubed a new case. This was a remington UMC case that had been tumbled to a nice shine. I ran it through the sizer once and it had a difficult time coming out, so I re-lubed it and tried to size it again, and it got stuck. I had bought an RCBS stuck case remover kit earlier in the day to get out the first stuck case, and so I had to use it again to get this one out. Then I changed over to this Imperial Wax. It worked like a charm I ended up making 40 cartridges with the following specs 35 remington UMC cases 5 American Eagle XM193 cases 22.2 grains of Hogdon Varget powder Federal Premium Match Grade small rifle primer 55 grain Sierra varminter soft point bullets I'm going to test these out tomorrow and I'll post a range report. Thanks! Just finished my range report. Here's a link to it. My First Handloads - Range Report (with pics) Thanks for all your help! |
| I highly recommend Unique Case Lube. I use Imperial Case Sizing Lube sometimes when I am doing some small jobs and only resize 3 or 4 cases. Unique is a lot like Imperial, but not as thick of a wax and spreads on the cases much easier. You can dip a Qtip in the wax and run it through the necks of all the case, and resolve a lot of issues. Put a dime size on your finger rub it across all the others and just rub the bottom 1/4 of the case when you pick them up. Never had a stuck case using it! With One-Shot I have had about a dozen in a month before I threw it all in the trash. The wax sets up in the bottom of the can and the Hornady guys said they have had several bad batches out there. Too much work having to pull cases when your trying to do other things. |
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Well Imdandman for what it's worth. I've been using RCBS small base die for a while now. I have a set of brass (R-P and Win) that I have loaded at least 7 times now. Now granted I load them moderate load. Still have to see any manifestation of overworked brass on the set. I use the RCBS lube pad that came with my press kit. I never have any problem with it. |
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IMO, I like the RCBS Case Lube-2 formula over the Imperial Wax. The Imperial has a higher viscosity, but does not seem to provide the level of lubricity offered by the RCBS-2 (smaller ram load during sizing). The Imperial is more difficult to remove when cleaning up after resizing. On the otherhand, the RCBS-2 is water based, easier to remove, and may require reapplication in some scenarios where the Imperial will "stick" with you.
I've never had a stuck case with my SB .223 die unless I failed to apply lube to the case. As far as SB vs. Standard FL sizing, alot depends on the objective of the final product. If you are feeding three or four semi-auto rifles that may have variations in bore size, and these are not used for match precision, and you have enough "never fired, and once fired" brass in the reload cycle to go three or four rounds in your lifetime, then SB is probably the way to go. If you are loading for precision in one semi-auto rifle, or loading for hunting in a bolt gun, then standard FL sizing, or neck sizing often with periodic FL sizing may be your cup of tea. If you are loading for precision in a bolt gun, and have only a few precious pieces of Lapua brass in your reload cycle, then neck sizing often, with periodic standard FL sizing only if necessary may be the best route. |
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STAY AWAY from Hornday One Shot, that alone is a prescription for stuck cases especially for new reloaders. Dillon Spray Lube works well, but you have to let it set up.....Buy yourself a RCBS Stuck Case Remover Kit. Always good to have!
Unless your 223 Brass was fired in a sloppy chambered MG there is no reason to use a Small Base Full Length Sizer Die at all. Get a Dillon Case gauge ( they are Stainless Steel vs Wilson being steel). Get a Full Length Sizer Die. I recomend a Redding with a carbide expander ball. +1 and then some. Personally I used to like Dillon spray the best but my last bottle was "off" and I got some stuck cases. Prefer the RCBS spray. On SB dies....you don't need them. SB dies actually caused problems then I switched to regular dies and all was fine. |
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