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Posted: 11/30/2008 5:44:29 AM EDT
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Im looking to get a new safe, I have a stack on steel cabinet with a key lock, im looking for somthing more secure,
I was wondering if one of the stack on safe at dicks like this http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3380486 would be ok. i still plan to keep my current cabinet for ammo and other stuff i only plan to ever have 7 or 8 long guns at the most, and a few handguns, these safes seem like a deal for around 300 bucks, but are they? I also have to get it up stairs , i want to keep the cost downm but at the same time i dont want to worry if some smash and grabber is taking me stuff with a large screw driver, |
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any safe is better than no safe at all. that being said 300 bucks for a safe is on the bottom end of the range..
i will leave you with a thought that was told to me by a person who sells safes. how many guns do you have? what is their value? would you trust a low end safe to do the job of protecting that many guns worth that much money ?? |
| I looked at the stack on safes yesterday and passed on the one you mentioned. I am also considering spending more and getting a snap safe so I can move it by myself and put it in a closet. I have a big Browning safe that I have had for at least 25 years but it is so difficult to move around. I bought a new old house and can't get th browning in through the doors so it has to stay out in the garage. |
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the cheap safes that are all black are basically a beefed up security cabinet
the green or brown ones are fireproof the black and white ones are fireproof and waterproof I just ordered a 36gun fireproof waterproof safe, figured it was worth the extra for the added piece of mind since it'll be going in the garage and I'll feel better that the safe will be air tight and the silica gel will keep things nice and dry. |
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If there is one valuable tidbit of advice I could give you, it is this: Buy a small fire proof safe of reputable manufacture (liberty, fort knox, ect). I am saying one small enough to move up or down stairs with a refrigerator hand truck. Do not buy the stack-on junk.
I say this for two reasons. 1) no gun is truly replaceable. If you buy new, you just give the perverted Uncle Sam one more validation of what you own and when you own it. There may be a day when yo are not allowed to replace it. 2) I would rather have 3 safes in 3 different locations in my house than one large safe. If they find one, the thieves may think it is the only one. If the house is on fire, at least one or two of the three may be spared any worst case event. Small safes can be moved in an emergency, but bolted down to reduce the probability of theft. |
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300 bucks will not get you a good safe. Three times that amount and you're starting to get into the right price range.
Don't worry about getting it up stairs, there's a special dolly made just for that. You should be able to find somebody that has one who you can either pay to move the safe or rent the dolly from. Whatever you get make sure it is 'UL' listed for fire protection. |
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just an fyi, my LIBERTY SAFE= P.O.S (EMAIL ME FOR DETAILS) digital lock failed two times.
it took a 22 year locksmith over 9 hours to break into the safe, this was even knowing the drill points. no way a crook/ thief can break into a safe with a sledge hammer, crowbar...not going to happen. |
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I can get into ANY sub-TL rated safe in under 30 minutes, ok an hour tops by myself. Notice, I said "get into". This will result in the non-repairable destruction of the safe, likely considerable damage to the room, and cost about 2-500 bucks in cutting dics,blades and drill bits on a good day. Most contents will be fine.
No torches involved either. If you're really concerned with theft and thieves with some basic electric and/or gas-powered demo saws and some primitive hydraulic tools then you NEED to get a TL-15 or higher rated safe. They won't go after the door. Just about every "Gun Safe" I've ever run into is UL rated "Residential Security Container" tops... Utter garbage if the thieves are even familiar with basic technique and power tools. A lot of the more expensive looking ones look like tanks, but they just aren't. The rating is all that matters. Seriously.. Don't fool yourself otherwise. So look for the UL rating. TL-30 would be my minimum if you've got something really valuable that'll resist electric and small-engine gas-powered tools even from me for many, many hours. Even a top-notch locksmith with a lot of safes under his belt is going to work for hours if the object is just to open the thing any way possible. It take a LOT longer and a LOT more skill to crack the door in a manner that can be repaired. Look for the RSC rating if you want to keep 1 or 2 guys out who have basic hand tools and aren't that bright.... And bolt it down. If it has no UL security rating and it's new then it's junk as far as criminals are concerned. Maybe it'll keep a kid out. Don't ever put any kind of safe into a garage. Way to easy to carry off in a vehicle and work on somewhere else. It's much harder and essentially impossible to drag a 4000 pound safe out of a basement in any reasonable length of time by 2-3 guys. The dummy-safe in the open is a great idea that has worked many times. Make it 3-400 pounds. Always disguise your real safe as best as you can. Always try to conceal the tops and sides of the safe. The most secure safes are the ones that are never noticed. |
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well, diamond back safes are good, so are sturdy safes.
both are good prices via shipping to your garage. just think, all these "gun safes" are UL listed as a residental safe. If fortknox was good, it would be listed as a UL15, which I have not seen one listed as such. UL15 is very expensive. food for thought. do not believe the hype. Just get one in your budget. get a safe and get a security system with it, have it in an area with a secondary door with a bolt lock on it, have the security system rigged to the inside and to the door. that way, when a person pries open the door, the alarm will be sounding off, police coming, and the guy will just steal your TV. |
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Fort Knox safes are junk for what they cost. They don't specify what level of UL rating they have but I can tell it ain't over RSC.
Here's from their own website from one of their more expensive models: Internal 10 gauge stainless steel reinforced liner (5/16" total steel thickness, 1 3/4" overall body thinkness) Any idea how fast I can cut two sheets of mild steel totaling 5/16"? Lol... Filled with cement? Unlikely they are but still not a problem. Add another 20 minutes. A prepared thief goes through one of the other 5 sides of the safe. Much quicker. The marketing BS makes you look at the door and all of those stupid shiny bolts and intricate relockers and other crap that'll likely break one day. Makes me crazy thinking of people wasting money on these things thinking they're really getting "Fort Knox"..... Just know what you're getting guys. Here's an example of a long-gun sized "real" safe that would resist a very determined but torchless or c4-less thief many hours to open. http://thesafewarehouse.com/detail.php?pid=180 If you're prepared to spend Fort Knox money then make sure it's a TL-30 or better. |
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$1000 gun safe, two guys with one crow bar and one 4' pry bar, door opened in under 2 minutes (skip to 2:30):
video Note that they had to put the safe on its back to get leverage on the bars. |
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$1000 gun safe, two guys with one crow bar and one 4' pry bar, door opened in under 2 minutes (skip to 2:30): video Note that they had to put the safe on its back to get leverage on the bars. Good point. Make sure you bolt your safe to the floor and/or wall. |
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Fearme - I appreciate your comments. What are your opinions of these 2, say for someone that can't blow $5k on a safe? http://www.sturdysafe.com/ http://www.zanottiarmor.com/ Both of those brands are what we call 10 minute jobs. When evaluating any brand just check for the actual UL rating. If there's none then it might be something that could keep a kid or a crackhead out. If it's UL RSC then figure an hour tops for a thief with power tools who's a slow learner, less than 30 minutes for a smarter one. I hear you about the money but unfortunately there's no real 'cheap' TL-15 or higher safes unless you buy used. That's a real consideration you should make. Hell, with all these banks going out of business you'd think the market would be flooded with them! But it seems there was never any real money in most of these banks I guess.... The other consideration is the sheer weight of a real long-gun sized TL-15/30 rated safe. You're probably looking at 3000 pounds+. That's a serious consideration for a wood-frame house. You'd want a lot of re-enforcement underneath like those lightweight steel jacking columns in the basement for the first floor. Forget the second floor. Remember that in a house fire, most fire-rated safes will come apart after falling into the basement from the second floor. But if you must settle for a RSC rated container then get the heaviest one you can and don't spend over $1200 or so for the best one. Try to hide it by drywalling around it. Use a little creativity and you'd be able to hide just about anything if it's in your own house. Remove all external brand name markings/model numbers/serials/etc.... Go to a real safe store and find the brand/model name for a safe rated TXTL60(torch, tool, explosive resistant). Make a realistic label and affix that to the front of your safe. Make it look professional. Look up that brand on the net and try to duplicate the look of the label/stenciling. Everything you can do or spend just buys you more time. There is no safe that you can afford that can't be eventually cut open. I just want to be sure most people realize RSC gun-safes are NOT really safes, they are "residential security containers" like the rating says.... |
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Fearme - I appreciate your comments. What are your opinions of these 2, say for someone that can't blow $5k on a safe? http://www.sturdysafe.com/ http://www.zanottiarmor.com/ Both of those brands are what we call 10 minute jobs. When evaluating any brand just check for the actual UL rating. If there's none then it might be something that could keep a kid or a crackhead out. If it's UL RSC then figure an hour tops for a thief with power tools who's a slow learner, less than 30 minutes for a smarter one. I hear you about the money but unfortunately there's no real 'cheap' TL-15 or higher safes unless you buy used. That's a real consideration you should make. Hell, with all these banks going out of business you'd think the market would be flooded with them! But it seems there was never any real money in most of these banks I guess.... The other consideration is the sheer weight of a real long-gun sized TL-15/30 rated safe. You're probably looking at 3000 pounds+. That's a serious consideration for a wood-frame house. You'd want a lot of re-enforcement underneath like those lightweight steel jacking columns in the basement for the first floor. Forget the second floor. Remember that in a house fire, most fire-rated safes will come apart after falling into the basement from the second floor. But if you must settle for a RSC rated container then get the heaviest one you can and don't spend over $1200 or so for the best one. Try to hide it by drywalling around it. Use a little creativity and you'd be able to hide just about anything if it's in your own house. Remove all external brand name markings/model numbers/serials/etc.... Go to a real safe store and find the brand/model name for a safe rated TXTL60(torch, tool, explosive resistant). Make a realistic label and affix that to the front of your safe. Make it look professional. Look up that brand on the net and try to duplicate the look of the label/stenciling. Everything you can do or spend just buys you more time. There is no safe that you can afford that can't be eventually cut open. I just want to be sure most people realize RSC gun-safes are NOT really safes, they are "residential security containers" like the rating says.... Negative on the Sturdy Safe. They make the best safes this side of TL30 safes. Far stronger then your Ft Knox, Browning's, Liberty's and even the AMSEC's. The Sturdy Safes are not pretty but their steel is much thicker and their locking system is better. Read upon their site, it's pretty informative. I built a Vault in my home. I could have had any Vault door I wanted as price was no problem. After reading up for months I went with the Sturdy. They build doors for Banks and Police stations.......they are the real deal. |
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I thought strudy safes where good until I goggled them and found a few messageboards where a bunch of locksmiths knocking the messages the owner's daughter down on what she was claiming on the safes.
If they are so good, then they would be labeled as a 15 minute safe. Their fire protection is hype. Its a known fact that the moisture in drywall is what causes the lower temps in the safe. If you buy a strudy, don't go with the fire protection, just add in your own drywall for less then 10 bucks. hehehe. I do not know, they seem good but if you look at the steel thickness chart. Those few extra microns of more width doesn't really "add" to the security. Their locking bolts seem to be no hype and seems to be good. They are way better then the Cannons but then again the strudys are twice the price. For all intents and purposes, like all the other safe post, you need a security system and a average safe to protect your guns. If you leave your house for work, the robber will have 8-10 hours to defeat the safe. Right? Now, which safe do you REALLY need given the time the cops respond to the call? I cannot answer the question. |
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I thought strudy safes where good until I goggled them and found a few messageboards where a bunch of locksmiths knocking the messages the owner's daughter down on what she was claiming on the safes. If they are so good, then they would be labeled as a 15 minute safe. Their fire protection is hype. Its a known fact that the moisture in drywall is what causes the lower temps in the safe. If you buy a strudy, don't go with the fire protection, just add in your own drywall for less then 10 bucks. hehehe. I do not know, they seem good but if you look at the steel thickness chart. Those few extra microns of more width doesn't really "add" to the security. Their locking bolts seem to be no hype and seems to be good. They are way better then the Cannons but then again the strudys are twice the price. For all intents and purposes, like all the other safe post, you need a security system and a average safe to protect your guns. If you leave your house for work, the robber will have 8-10 hours to defeat the safe. Right? Now, which safe do you REALLY need given the time the cops respond to the call? I cannot answer the question. They use ceramic wool rated to 2,300 degreese. It is far better then dry wall. They use 7 and 8 guage for the body. Much thicker the 10 and 12 guage most RSC's use. 7 is 3/16 thick. Check out this page and also look at some of the videos on there: http://www.sturdysafe.com/minuteman.htm Also check out how they fire line their safes: http://www.sturdysafe.com/fireliner.htm |
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take a look at the steel thickness chart. Its not much difference in 7 vs 10 gauge.
and no studies were ever shown that ceramic wool is better then drywall. Look at other major safes, they use drywall because it works. Its not instulation, its the moisture in the drywall that is released inside the safe at high tempts that keeps the contents cool for a certain amount of time. All that ceramic wool does is to add 500 or more bucks to the price tag. http://www.diamondbackgunsafes.com/ (and other safe companies) will save you enough to buy another gun. basically they offer the same security. Even the AR15 sponser safe company is cheaper then sturdy. I am saying price wise, its not worth it, due to people using power tools and such. I am going by what well expierence locksmiths say. Not what the company says about their safes. Yeah they show cheap safes getting pryed open, do they show theirs under the same conditions? no. because all cheap safes (all manufactures) will FAIL unless they are 15 or 30 rated safes. |
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take a look at the steel thickness chart. Its not much difference in 7 vs 10 gauge. and no studies were ever shown that ceramic wool is better then drywall. Look at other major safes, they use drywall because it works. Its not instulation, its the moisture in the drywall that is released inside the safe at high tempts that keeps the contents cool for a certain amount of time. All that ceramic wool does is to add 500 or more bucks to the price tag. http://www.diamondbackgunsafes.com/ (and other safe companies) will save you enough to buy another gun. basically they offer the same security. Even the AR15 sponser safe company is cheaper then sturdy. I am saying price wise, its not worth it, due to people using power tools and such. I am going by what well expierence locksmiths say. Not what the company says about their safes. Yeah they show cheap safes getting pryed open, do they show theirs under the same conditions? no. because all cheap safes (all manufactures) will FAIL unless they are 15 or 30 rated safes. I agree with you on this. But Sturdy Safes are the best RSC's this side of TL15/TL30 safes. I made my choice to buy one not based on their website...they didn't even have one when I bought mine. I read up on different forums and talked to several lock smiths on line to determine how well the Sturdy's were built. They are very good RSC's and better then all the main line Ft. Knox Liberty ect. They are also cheaper then many of these options for the most part. |
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I agree, Sturdy has the options and wall thickness that would cost 1000 or more from liberty or fort knox. Sturdy would be an opition for a budget safe. its simple and would protect the goods. Did you get yours firelined? Mine is fire lined. Here is a picture of my set up. The door is just under 1/2 inch thick: 
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| call a safe guy...a guy that might have used old safes in his store or warehouse...the guy i bought from showed me how easy it is to get into these safes they sell these days and i was less than impressed...in the end i bought a fire proof and water proof old safe that weighs right about 1300lbs and is only the size of a 22 or 24 gun safe...it was used and not pretty but seeing the difference in the metal thickness and the fireproofing and the hinges i was sold...in the end i spent $750 delivered and i am very happy...call around see what you can find |
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