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Sturdy vs. Brown vs. ??? (Page 2 of 3)
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Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
I am enjoying and watching this thread... let's keep the pissing contests to a minimum. Capice? Thanks TheGrayMan, I'll do my best on the pissing contest but I read back through the posts and would like to say a few more things and posts some pics and some sketches to illustrate a few points. |
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Originally Posted By rockola:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
I am enjoying and watching this thread... let's keep the pissing contests to a minimum. Capice? Thanks TheGrayMan, I'll do my best on the pissing contest but I read back through the posts and would like to say a few more things and posts some pics and some sketches to illustrate a few points. Looking forward to more information. |
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Originally Posted By Mabuz:
Thanks a1abdj, I appreciate the info. I was leaning the same way considering the B-Rated safe, just haven't really looked into anything with that type of rating much until recently, so I wasn't sure on if it was that much of a step up over what Sturdy offers, as far as being more secure or providing a little more resistance in event of an attack. Either way I go, it will be a manual dial lock, not interested in electronics for something like this. With a double door safe, it wouldn't matter. 2 is one, one is none. If one lock completely failed, you would still be able to get in. Electronics are very scary things to many people who talk safes. Mechanical locks can be quite fragile, and do fail. If you open your safe 4 times a day, guess which lock is going to fail quicker? if you don't want to bolt down the safe but want it to still stay put).
Let me clear this misnomer up too. Weight has very little to do with being able to move a heavy safe. With very little training, I moved a 3000# safe with fairly simple tools, out of a house, and into a truck––three times. It didn't take very long. It didn't attract any attention. Fact is, regardless of how much a safe weighs, the most important thing you can do is bolt that thing down. |
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Originally Posted By rockola:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
I am enjoying and watching this thread... let's keep the pissing contests to a minimum. Capice? Thanks TheGrayMan, I'll do my best on the pissing contest but I read back through the posts and would like to say a few more things and posts some pics and some sketches to illustrate a few points. Information is always welcome. |
"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism-
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism-
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I would be interested to hear from jimbojones21 and others as to if I had a budget of around $2500 what safe would you recommend me to look at. For that price range I was looking at a 5ga Sturdy but open to suggestions. It seems to me you have to break this discussion down to price point. Its great to point out there are better safes out there. But I am in the "Toyota Camry" range. Don't get me wrong I would love to have a Lambo but thats just not happening. I respect the knowledge jimbojones21 and others are offering but it seems to be removed from the context of price points.
As a side note also interested in hearing if I would be better going with the 5ga 60" Sturdy option or a 7ga 72"? Basically is the benefits of height worth the difference in 5-7ga steel? |
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Originally Posted By bchance1:
I would be interested to hear from jimbojones21 and others as to if I had a budget of around $2500 what safe would you recommend me to look at. For that price range I was looking at a 5ga Sturdy but open to suggestions. It seems to me you have to break this discussion down to price point. Its great to point out there are better safes out there. But I am in the "Toyota Camry" range. Don't get me wrong I would love to have a Lambo but thats just not happening. I respect the knowledge jimbojones21 and others are offering but it seems to be removed from the context of price points. As a side note also interested in hearing if I would be better going with the 5ga 60" Sturdy option or a 7ga 72"? Basically is the benefits of height worth the difference in 5-7ga steel? For that price range, I would go with a Sturdy. You could get a B rate Brown and stay under $2500 but it would have to be a smaller model. Choosing between a bigger 7 gauge safe or a smaller 5 gauge one, I would go with the bigger safe because the difference in steel thickness is so small. As most gun safe owners would tell you, they fill up fast. |
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I still think Sturdy makes a damn good gun safe compared to most of the market, and I will almost certainly buy a fire-lined Sturdy when I get a house (with hopes of getting a Brown someday). I will say that Sturdy's warranty policies have bothered me since I first saw them on their website (i.e. $150 additional fee for full coverage, partial nullifications when chosing an e-lock or hardplate upgrade). |
R.I.P. Jasper 12/23/2011
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
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Do you think this could be done with a B rated Brown? Looking at mine it would seem very unlikely.
Sure. I think it could be done with most anything out there that's using less than 1/2" steel plate (composite safes are another story all together). This is why most commercial carriers will not cover them for any substantial amount, and that most professionals will tell you that a B rate safe is not to be used for the overnight storage of cash outside of a change fund. Once you get to 1/2" plate and thicker, you're in a territory where you will not bend it with normal hand tools. 1/4" plate is pretty tough compared to what you'll see in most gun safes, but it's still a tin can in the realm of real safes. It can be bent and deformed with hand tools. |
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First off I'd like to say, I don't think Sturdy Safe's 5ga model is superior to Brown's B rate safe nor do I think the Brown B rate is superior to the Sturdy; I'd consider it a tie especially knowing that additional plating can be added to the Sturdy safe for still less cost of a Brown B rate safe delivered.
There was some good info and dimensions given on this thread about Brown Safe's and information is always a good thing and much appreciated on this forum. I suspect though that whoever made that comments (I'm pretty sure of the source) about Sturdy safe really hasn't done the things he says he has with regards to the safe. After all, how could a person in the industry drill through a Sturdy safe's hardplate and not know that that is where the external relock is located? Anyway, I'll play along I'll just refer the the threads as "the person who posted this said". Door Gap:
The Sturdy door gap is smaller than the Brown and with good reason. The Sturdy uses a thin bent steel frame and a thinner door so a small gap is more important. Brown's 1" thick solid steel frame and solid steel plate door .50" thick minimum means that you won't be able to pry it regardless of the 0.04-0.07 gap. There's a reason that Graffunder's cost a lot more than Brown and have incredibly low tolerances. If you want a real safe with awesome craftsmanship and tolerances than definitely get a Graffunder. But the security of the Brown is not affected and it has still passed UL's tests. 5ga steel is not much thinner than the steel on the Brown's B rate body so it seems stupid to be considering a plate with 0.04 inches more in steel thickness as "thick" and another with 0.21" as thin. Regardless of this though, the statement above is wrong. The person who posted this said that Sturdy's bent steel frame is a weakness whereas Brown's solid frame is a strength (some refer to this as the door jamb) but I think the opposite is true based on the bolt support and/or door frame of both. Here's a couple photos and some sketches to illustrate some points: Sturdy Safe's 7ga (3/16") 3 x 5" steel door frame and bolt guide. In case anyone is wondering, I painted my safe not too long ago; not finished yet. Also, it was just above 0 F when these photos where taken ... hands where cold and photos were rushed. 
Uni-body door (5ga (0.21") steel being considered) with bent door jamb / seat and no welds needed which means greater strength. 
Sturdy's uni–body construction and especially around the door seat / jamb is definitely a strength. The door seat is able to flex and absorb forces as well as allow forces to be distributed over a larger area. A door seat that is too rigid will concentrate forces at a point which ultimately will lead to an early failure. The following two sketches I hope will illustrate the point. Scale is close but not actual. The plate thickness is relative. As you can see, plate thickness is shown Sturdy 5ga vs 1/4" and also with additional 7ga plate option on Sturdy. 
To reemphasize, I'm not saying the Brown B rate safe is vulnerable to a pry attack with pry bars because the strength is beyond what could be generated by hand held levers, however, due to the non-recessed door and the thin strip plate bolt support design, the safe still might be susceptible to pry attacks with stronger prying tools.. 
More Sturdy safe tolerance photos: Credit card 0.02" thick and won't quite fit in top gap of door. 
Door opening about the thickness of a penny or 0.04 to 0.05" 
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Not that either safe would be easy to pry open, but I'm already noticing two things missing from your drawings above.
I'm not seeing any measurments showing the length that the bolt is extended behind the door frame. I'm also wondering why the pry forces that you're showing are only on the door in an outward fashion. Usually the door frame is bent outwards prior to the door itself. Either way, let's be real here: Available at Lowes Home Improvement: 
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= You can go here to watch the videos: http://www.evolutionpowertools.co.uk/us/steel_downloads_videos.html Several other videos can be seen on Youtube. 1/4" is not a problem, and a plunge cut isn't difficult to make. I could cut a Sturdy Safe in half in probably less time than it took you to make those drawings showing how forces aren't really applied during a pry attack. 
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Your drawing of the Brown door frame is incorrect. I guess the photos weren't good enough so now I'll have to make a drawing to help you understand it.
Also, the way the force is being applied and the stress points are wrong. Standby for a nice long post explaining why
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How thick of a plate safe is needed to be a royal PITA in such a cutting attack?
It depends on what you're cutting it with. Any material, of any thickness can be cut. In my experience, anything 1/2" and thicker would be pretty robust against an amateur. The problem with a B rate safe is that the door is a solid 1/2" plate, but the body is still 1/4" which can be deformed during a simple brute force attack with hand tools. I have also seen a TL rated safe cut up into little chunks with a gas powered concrete saw by burglars. Since most residential burglars don't even touch the safe, the use of any type of safe (too large to carry) will go a long way from a statistical point of view. So long as you are using your gun safes for guns only, and carrying an insurance rider, a typical gun safe is fine. If your collection is of extraordinary value, then you should be using a safe suitable for that type of protection. All of the "other stuff" that usually finds its way into a gun safe would be better off in "other stuff" safes (or containers) designed to offer suitable protection. |
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The problem with a B rate safe is that the door is a solid 1/2" plate, but the body is still 1/4" which can be deformed
That's why placement is key. If anyone tried tried to break into my safes they would have to go through the doors. Unless in one case they wanted to break in and remove a bolted down liberty or in another case knock down a wall in a high rise apt building. |
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That's why placement is key.
Placement, and the other layers of security. In the end, if somebody has enough time to pry on a safe without being noticed, they have enough time to cut on it without being noticed. Cutting is a lot faster, so if somebody is coming after the safe, they'll probably be a bit more prepared than just having a prybar. This is why most residential burglars are not attacking safes. They aren't prepared. This is also why UL is only testing gun safes against what essentially amounts to a hammer and screwdriver. These are the tools that a common residential burglar may have with him for prying open a door or window.. |
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For some reason, someone started talking about how hydraulic spreading tools could open the Brown safe but not the Sturdy and they said this, "You can't do this type of attack on Sturdy's door because it is impossible to get it started due to the recessed door and the tight tolerances around the door."
So that's why I'm even talking about it. I don't think hydraulic spreading tools have any place in a conversation about B rated and gun safes. Crowbars, drills and sledgehammers are much more appropriate. My point, as I have already said, is simply this: "If it is possible, then just imagine what the tools would do to a Sturdy with it's .20" thick frame (vs 1" for Brown) and .31" thick door (vs .50" for Brown)." Also, most of these tools need at least a .25" gap to insert the jaws so your not going to walk up to a Brown or Sturdy and use one without wedging and prying the frame apart. This drawing is incorrect: 
Please enjoy my crappy drawing showing a correct Brown B rated door frame: As I've said several times already, the 1/4" thick bolt supports are not "thin" by any standards. I've already mentioned TL rated and tested safes that have those same supports and other safes that have thinner ones and pass the tests. Don't know what else I can say. Instead of prying right to left and having the bolts engage the door frame, you would pry left to right and bend the hollow frame away from the door. The door would be pressed in and the bolts would barely be touching the frame. 
I'm not saying that you can or can't pry open this safe, I'm saying that when you apply a lot of pressure, thinner steel with air behind it is not stronger than solid thicker steel. And finally, this illustration addresses the claim that you cannot use hydraulic tools on a Sturdy because the door gap is too small. 
And since we're now talking about the fact that both these safes could be easily cut open with a power saw, remember that the Brown's door has 38% more steel than a Sturdy and the body of a Brown is 16% thicker than a 5-gauge Sturdy. Not a tremendous amount of difference but worth mentioning none the less. Also, with a Sturdy, you can make one vertical cut through the .20" thick steel along the door frame, then 2 small horizontal cuts on the top and bottom right above and below the last bolt, and then the door of the safe will open. For the Brown, you have to cut through 1" thick steel (or .50" thick steel + each 1" hardened bolt so you would just cut the body or door instead) to do the same thing. Again, not a big deal but it's something worth mentioning. So I've listed feature after feature comparing these 2 safes with photos, drawings and other facts and information. I'm not going to go back and forth forever with one or two people essentially repeating myself. All the info is there in this and my previous posts, so I hope it was helpful to at least some people. jimbojones21 is out 
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Lessons learned:
Can we agree on these? |
R.I.P. Jasper 12/23/2011
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
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Originally Posted By aklferris:
Lessons learned:
Can we agree on these?
Defense-in-depth is a time-tested philosophy. |
"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism-
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism-
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Rockola- This is getting slightly off topic, but nice paint job. Seriously. I know there was a user here that ordered a Sturdy safe in black, and was disappointed that the guys at Sturdy had painted over the standard paint job. This left the safe with a rough texture. Is your safe surface rough after repainting it? Back to the topic at hand, I think jimbo's detailed write up of Brown safes is worthy of a tack. Maybe we can have a thread with nothing but detailed pics and write ups of various gun safe options. Plenty of people here, including rockola, have posted detailed pics of Sturdy safes that show various options, and these should be included as well. just MHO. |
R.I.P. Jasper 12/23/2011
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
AKΛ and KΨ FOR LIFE
"I want people to be afraid of how much they love me" -Michael, "The Office"
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Originally Posted By aklferris:
Rockola- This is getting slightly off topic, but nice paint job. Seriously. I know there was a user here that ordered a Sturdy safe in black, and was disappointed that the guys at Sturdy had painted over the standard paint job. This left the safe with a rough texture. Is your safe surface rough after repainting it? Back to the topic at hand, I think jimbo's detailed write up of Brown safes is worthy of a tack. Maybe we can have a thread with nothing but detailed pics and write ups of various gun safe options. Plenty of people here, including rockola, have posted detailed pics of Sturdy safes that show various options, and these should be included as well. just MHO. I think something like that would be a great idea. It would probably cut down on all the threads that start out like this one too...  There has been lots of good stuff in this thread, I've got to thank everyone for all the good discussion and contributions.
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Originally Posted By aklferris:
Rockola- This is getting slightly off topic, but nice paint job. Seriously. I know there was a user here that ordered a Sturdy safe in black, and was disappointed that the guys at Sturdy had painted over the standard paint job. This left the safe with a rough texture. Is your safe surface rough after repainting it? Thanks aklferris, I did like the original look but since it is in my garage and my new garage faces towards the road, I wanted it to look less safe like. I was going for a "textured" look so I painted with Rust-Oleum tool hammered grey, I sprayed some but used a roller for most. When I'm done painting, it will be camouflaged to blend the safe with the contents of my garage. I see more comments added to the above: To pry a safe open you pry away the body from the door??? On a 5ga safe??? Must be a few steps missing from the procedure such as first cutting through the body around the door above and below the bolts to allow that to happen. I also guess I should have put some force vectors on the drawing too and see I didn't have the corner construction right on the Brown either ... might have to come back for that but I really think this is about it for me. |
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Ok this is long and sorry for that but I think that is it for me discussing safes after this, it's just not worth it to me anymore with all these "experts" about ridiculing anyone's opinion that happens to disagree.
I researched safes for about a year and a half before finding Sturdy and purchasing their gun safe and after 3 years of ownership, I'd buy one again and probably will in the future. For myself, they are the right balance between security, weight, reliability, price and customer service. There are many other good gun safes out there but I own a Sturdy and have a lot of knowledge about how it is made (especially after 2+ years of arguing with "safe experts") so when someone asks about them, I give my opinion; no I don't work in the safe industry but I do have bachelors and masters degrees in engineering and 21 years experience in the metals industry (it's my heat treat furnaces that make virtually all of the 7075 alloy used in US made AR receivers) seen hundreds of safes, read thousands of threads and articles on the subject. So a 5 ga Sturdy verse and Brown B rate. Okay because the Brown B rate has more steel on the door I'd give it an edge over the Sturdy; however, for still less than the cost of the Brown; a Stainless steel plate can be added over the lock box and 5ft steel plates can be added to the sides to give 1/2" of steel over the lock box and 3/8" steel on the sides which is likely where a saw cut attack will occur. All this can be done on the Sturdy which gives you more steel where you need it and you save the 700 to 800 on the shipping; so for me at least, the Sturdy is the better option:http://www.sturdysafe.com/model4824-6.htm The impression has been made that because Sturdy safes are made with bent steel that they are somehow weak and especially around the corners and doors. Well I don't know this person's background who said this but he doesn't know much about steel fabrication. In fact, a master fabricator like Terry Pratt of Sturdy Safe has forgotten more about steel then he will ever know which I only point out because of the condescending statements made towards Sturdy by this self proclaimed "expert". Instead of prying right to left and having the bolts engage the door frame, you would pry left to right and bend the hollow frame away from the door. The door would be pressed in and the bolts would barely be touching the frame.
Nice thing about Sturdy is that they are not afraid to put their safes to the test. Yes some "safe experts" will make fun of their videos but short of an actual UL TL rating there is not much for a consumer to judge by. Here's over 5 tons of tension pulling on the body ... no movement in the sidewalls. Video Fork Truck Test of Body Strength So how do they make the bends in their safes and how much force is needed to do that? Alyssa Pratt mentioned on a forum a couple years back that they use a 250 Ton Brake Press to create the bends in the body of their safes. To illustrate what kind of force is needed here is my simple non-structural engineers 'close enough' approximation and there is a lot more to consider for sure (steel grade, Poisson's ratio, Young's modulus, spring back etc etc). As we know, yield strength of a metal is the maximum amount of stress the metal can take before it will no longer returns to it's previous state (Elastic Deformation). Ultimate tensile strength is the maximum stress the metal can take before it breaks. Since stress = force / area (cross section of sample) then we should be able to come close to what force will be needed to bend a 5ft piece of 5ga A36 steel (grade 50 normally used with 7ga) Yield strength of A36 = 36,000 PSI Thickness of 5ga = 0.2092" Cross sectional area of steel to bend = 60" x 0.2092" = 12.552 Sq Inches So to bend the A36 plate we need to apply a force to the plate greater than 36,000 PSI to achieve plastic deformation without exceeding the metal's tensile strength. Force > Area x (Min Stress needed) = > 12.552 x 36,000 = > 451872 LBS / 2000 LBS / Ton = > 226 Tons So basically, the 250 ton brake press is really working on this stuff. There is nothing weak about 5 ga plate other than the thickness against a high speed cutting tool but that would be true for 1/4", 1/2" or even higher with some modern blades. In short, the bends in the body aren't going to be beaten down with a sledge hammer or the body pried away from the door on the Sturdy. So what if the intent is to cut the body with a saw above and below the bolts then pry the body away from the door? Of course, that can also be done on the Brown so it comes down to how much steel will be needed to be cut. Well Brown's safe door jamb is solid and Sturdy's is "hollow" surely there will be more steel to have to cut through on the Brown right? Let's see: 
So although it's not much, there is more steel to have to cut through on the Sturdy's door jamb and likely if your circular saw blade isn't 12" you'll have to overcut into the door and bolt carrier to cut the jamb on the Sturdy. Then in both cases you have to bend a long strip of plate steel to clear the bolts which as can be seen in the above calculations is no easy task. Here's the updated Sturdy drawing showing forces on a pry attack (a conventional representation of an attack trying to brute force open the door) I'm showing the safe with relative thickness of metal with door plate options added. 
Here is the Brown drawing again with a more accurate representation of construction and calculations on stress to bolt carrier while an opening force is applied to door. I have no idea what the grade of metal is used on the bolt carrier but I suspect with the welds, bends, tapping, drilling etc that it is plain old mild steel as used on the rest of the safe. To note, a TL rated safe has to have a minimum plate door thickness of 1 1/2" or equivalent which is a whole lot more rigid than 1/2" plate. What this means is forces applied to one portion of a 1 1/2" plate door will be more evenly distributed across the bolts than on a 1/2" door. So how much will 1/2" plate flex when force is applied? Here's that original fork truck test Sturdy Safe video but now watch the 1/2" plate that the safe is attached to flex with around 9000 Lbs of force being applied. Video Sturdy Safe Fork Truck Door Test while attached to 1/2" plate 
So would the Brown B rate fair as well doing the same test as Sturdy did to their safe? I think the Brown B rate might have some troubles. |
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(especially after 2+ years of arguing with "safe experts") Life is too short for that, my friend. I hear there are wonderful things to do outside Here's a guide to tell you when to stop arguing on the internet: Link
Terry Pratt of Sturdy Safe has forgotten more about steel then he will ever know which I only point out because of the condescending statements made towards Sturdy by this self proclaimed "expert". Absolutely, you're correct! But I've forgotten more about real and high security safes and locks from all over the world, and how to open them, then he'll ever know. And I'm only pointing this out because of condescending statements made towards me
I'm not even going to bother responding to the drawings that were made showing a door cut on both safes. The person who spent all their time making them clearly has no idea what I was talking about or how the cuts would be made. Instead of prying right to left and having the bolts engage the door frame, you would pry left to right and bend the hollow frame away from the door. The door would be pressed in and the bolts would barely be touching the frame. Not sure why this statement that I made is causing any confusion. Someone made extensive drawings showing a pry attack in only 1 direction. I'm saying that there are 2 directions that can be used to pry a safe. During a pry attack, it's safe to assume, at the very least, that both would be used. So would the Brown B rate fair as well doing the same test as Sturdy did to their safe? I think the Brown B rate might have some troubles. I disagree with this statement that the Brown B rate might have problems with the same test. Even with a .50" thick door, the force applied to one area of the safe door will be distributed across the 5 bolts (or 7 bolts if you add the top and bottom bolt option). You're not going to be able to apply pressure to just one bolt at a time while the others just sit around and drink margaritas. I not claiming the pressure will be distributed evenly, but it will be distributed across the bolts none the less. And since you're talking about "shearing" the 1/4" thick bolt guides which would allow bolts to break free and the door to open (bending them a little still won't allow the safe to open), why don't we use the Ultimate Tensile Strength or Tensile Strength of the A36 steel? As I'm sure you know, it's 58,000–80,000 psi. So, assuming your calculations of the maximum force applied to each bolt are correct, that would be 7250lb-10000lb per bolt. So at the low end, using the Yield Strength, it would take 22,500lb-31500lb to deform or bend the 1/4" bolt guides, and using the Tensile Strength, up to 50000lb-70000lb to shear all the bolt guides. Of course, here we are again talking about the tens of thousands of pounds of pressure required to pry open a gun safe and a B rate safe. As I've already said, I don't think hydraulic tools that can apply that kind of pressure have any place in this discussion. You would need a 1/4" gap in-between the door and frame to insert the tools and neither of these safes have a door gap that big. I also know it would be harder to move a small part of the solid 1" frame and .50 thick door of the Brown to get this gap than the .20" hollow frame and .31" thick door of the Sturdy (about .07 for the Brown and .04 for the Sturdy). You don't need a 250-ton press to enlarge the gap from .04 to .25 in .20" mild steel next to .31" mild steel across only a few inches to fit a hydraulic tool in. I've already compared the 2 safes on almost every feature and, as I feel like I've said 100 times already, "I'm also not trying to say that Sturdy makes crappy safes. I think they make a good solid basic gun safe that's better than most cheap gun safes and imports. They offer a good value and are a great option for some people. But they are not comparable and are not in the same class as real commercial safes....On a similar note, Brown makes quality commercial safes at a reasonable price that are a good option for some people. " I'd love to do this back and forth forever, but I just don't have the time. This is the last post I will be making on this forum (for real this time ). Enjoy your gun safes!
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jimbojones21 - Thanks for the great info. Rockola is just argueing for the sake of argueing now...and I don't think anyone is even listening to him anymore. Like you said, they're both great safes. It's like comparing a Ferrari 599 to a Bugatti Veyron . They're both awesome, but in a race, the Buggati will win. But you're also going to pay more for the Bugatti too. Thanks again for the specs and info!
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Originally Posted By FireStalker:
jimbojones21 - Thanks for the great info. Rockola is just argueing for the sake of argueing now...and I don't think anyone is even listening to him anymore. Like you said, they're both great safes. It's like comparing a Ferrari 599 to a Bugatti Veyron . They're both awesome, but in a race, the Buggati will win. But you're also going to pay more for the Bugatti too. Thanks again for the specs and info! Sorry but you don't speak for everyone. And for the record, and as the only person on here who owns both safes, I don't agree with you at all regarding the safes, specs, info or his condescending attitude. |
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Originally Posted By FireStalker:
jimbojones21 - Thanks for the great info. Rockola is just argueing for the sake of argueing now...and I don't think anyone is even listening to him anymore. Like you said, they're both great safes. It's like comparing a Ferrari 599 to a Bugatti Veyron . They're both awesome, but in a race, the Buggati will win. But you're also going to pay more for the Bugatti too. Thanks again for the specs and info! +1 |
Paying debt to karma...
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So if anyone cares, I ended up going with Sturdy. I think it will be more than enough for my needs, and the price is more in line with what I can plunk down on a safe currently.
The shipping on the Brown was actually closer to $1,000 after factoring in crating it up and delivery to the garage (ETA: this shipping estimate was also for their 36" since I decided to go with this size, not the 48" wide in my OP...I have no idea how much more the 48" would cost to ship), and I decided to go with fire lining in the safe. It was just getting too expensive for me with the additional handling costs and adding their fire lining in as well (another $1300 for fire lining). I will say both companies were very helpful with answering questions for me, and neither one tried any sort of pressuring arguments to get me to buy their safe, which wouldn't have worked and would have just would have pissed me off, so good on both companies for being helpful and courteous! Also, when asking questions, both companies just laid out why they think theirs is a good safe, and that was that. I would honestly recommend either place to deal with based on my experiences. Your needs would decide which place makes what you want to go with I guess. Thanks again for all the informative posts/arguments/comments throughout the thread fellas. 
ETA: shipping note. |
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Originally Posted By aklferris:
Cool! Details? Pics? Did you go with the 5ga option detailed in your OP? I did end up with the 5 gauge body, but after talking with a few guys that have moved a few safes in their time and know more about safes than I do, I decided to get a 36" wide safe vs. the 48" I originally wanted. I want to get the safe down a set of steps into my basement, and it was recomended that trying to get one of the huge ones might not go too smoothly. Sturdy is going to be building it for me soon, so it will take a couple months until it gets delivered. I'll update with some pics whenever it gets delivered. |
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Originally Posted By Mabuz:
Originally Posted By aklferris:
Cool! Details? Pics? Did you go with the 5ga option detailed in your OP? I did end up with the 5 gauge body, but after talking with a few guys that have moved a few safes in their time and know more about safes than I do, I decided to get a 36" wide safe vs. the 48" I originally wanted. I want to get the safe down a set of steps into my basement, and it was recomended that trying to get one of the huge ones might not go too smoothly. Sturdy is going to be building it for me soon, so it will take a couple months until it gets delivered. I'll update with some pics whenever it gets delivered. Congrats Mabuz, very nice choice. I have a 36" wide and have moved it twice and it has been no problem with a heavy duty appliance cart and a couple friends helping. So did you get the fire lining in the Sturdy? It's an excellent option if you did and one I regret not getting myself. Post pics when you get it and your thoughts as well if you don't mind. |
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Originally Posted By rockola:
Congrats Mabuz, very nice choice. I have a 36" wide and have moved it twice and it has been no problem with a heavy duty appliance cart and a couple friends helping. So did you get the fire lining in the Sturdy? It's an excellent option if you did and one I regret not getting myself. Post pics when you get it and your thoughts as well if you don't mind. I did go with the fire lining. I wasn't really considering it at first, but decided if I'm buying a safe, I may as well have as much protection as I can get. The size I got should suffice for quite a while, as my collection is relatively small compared to a lot of folks here. Will do on the pics and my opinions on the safe...it'll be a bit though, probably not for another couple months as Sturdy said they were just getting ready to set up tooling to make more 5 gauge safes. They wanted to be sure I knew it would be a little longer of a wait than usual though, which I appreciated, but it wasn't an issue as I've gone this long with just a small locking metal cabinet to store things. |
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Originally Posted By peligro113:
I think I'm buying a C-rated Brown thanks for the posts fellas Well I'm sure you'll be happy and it's certainly is a nice gun safe but a non-fire lined C-rate Brown of 72"x28"x26" dimensions goes for $7688 according to the website with another $700 to $800 for shipment. For that kind of money, you probably could be into a nice Graffunder. |
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Originally Posted By Mabuz:
Originally Posted By aklferris:
Cool! Details? Pics? Did you go with the 5ga option detailed in your OP? I did end up with the 5 gauge body, but after talking with a few guys that have moved a few safes in their time and know more about safes than I do, I decided to get a 36" wide safe vs. the 48" I originally wanted. I want to get the safe down a set of steps into my basement, and it was recomended that trying to get one of the huge ones might not go too smoothly. Sturdy is going to be building it for me soon, so it will take a couple months until it gets delivered. I'll update with some pics whenever it gets delivered. Congrats! I'm actually waiting on a call back from Terry. I'm waiting to get a final estimate on the 4827-6 from Sturdy, and he mentioned briefly the five gauge upgrade, but the mentioned it would not be available for a few more months as well. The pricing so far was reasonable, and within my budget. I had an original estimate with the safe in seven gauge, with the stainless sections on the front and sides, fire lined, with upgraded lock at a good price, but wanted to see what the additional costs of the five gauge would be. The kicker here is I got a call from a local Liberty dealer on a Presidential 50, which is slightly smaller than the Sturdy I'm working out, slightly used for under two years, for a substancially lower price than retail. Should this even be a consideration at this point? Regardless of which safe I go with, it's going to be temporary, sort of. My fiance and I agree that when we buy our next house, by then we'll have more guns and will need something bigger. our next house will acocunt for that, and we'll most likely be looking at a Graffunder or a Brown at that point. I'd say within the next five to seven years that purcahse will come around, so I have to start saving pretty much right after this purchase... ahahah Jerry |
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Originally Posted By rockola:
Originally Posted By peligro113:
I think I'm buying a C-rated Brown thanks for the posts fellas a non-fire lined C-rate Brown of 72"x28"x26" dimensions goes for $7688 according to the website with another $700 to $800 for shipment. For that kind of money, you probably could be into a nice Graffunder. Here's a Brown C-rate 72"x28"x26" gun safe for $4154 + either $268 or $234 for the interior http://www.brownsafe.com/features_weapon_safes/Weapon_safe_single_door.html You can get one with 2.5" thick high-PSI concrete amalgamate cladding (in addition to the solid steel .50" thick body and 1" thick door) for fire and additional burglary protection for $5,434. I would also consider a Brown double door safe for a little more (like the one OP is comparing to a single door sturdy in this thread) because they have 2 separate boltworks and locking systems. So you get a total of 8 relockers, 2 locks, 2 hardplates, and 10-14 locking bolts. The solid steel door frame also has twice as much steel as the single door model. An additional benefit of having 2 smaller doors, is that they're more rigid and won't flex as much as 1 bigger door. If you want the best security, they can weld a .50" thick (or whatever thickness you want) steel plate in the middle of the safe so you'll have 2 separate safes in 1; someone would have to open both doors without firing 1 of the 8 relockers or they would have to cut 2 holes in the doors or walls to get the contents of both safes. You can also have them put a LA GARD redundant lock on each door so you have quick electronic access through the keypad, but if the electronics fail, you can still open the lock with the mechanical dial. |
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The best feature of a double door safe like this is complete redundancy. If one lock malfunctions or you have any other problems, you just open the other door and then remove the malfunctioning lock and replace it and you're good to go. No drilling or anything else and you never lose access to your safe. Old bank vaults (and some modern European ones) used to have a small emergency access door for someone to crawl through in case the main door malfunctioned. It was just as strong and secure (if not more) as the main vault door. You can even use different brands of locks on the doors to really guarantee that they both won't fail at exactly the same. Or, you could put an electronic lock on one for quick access and mechanical lock on the other. Or, you can put a LA GARD redundant lock on each door so you have quick electronic access through the keypad, but if the electronics fail, you can still open the lock with the mechanical dial. Brown can also put a redundant lock on a single door safe. It's not as good as the full door redundancy like you have with a 2-door safe, but still better than just an electronic lock. This is great information that I never thought of. Thank you very much for bringing it up. I never really gave much thought to a double door but the redundancy aspect is very VERY appealing! |
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The best feature of a double door safe like this is complete redundancy. If one lock malfunctions or you have any other problems, you just open the other door and then remove the malfunctioning lock and replace it and you're good to go. No drilling or anything else and you never lose access to your safe.
Do the double door Browns use a single interior space, or do they run a divider in the middle? I have never seen one of their double doors in person, but many of the other double door gun safes I have seen have two seperate compartments. |
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Originally Posted By a1abdj:
Do the double door Browns use a single interior space, or do they run a divider in the middle? I have never seen one of their double doors in person, but many of the other double door gun safes I have seen have two seperate compartments. They do, and how far the divider goes up depends on the interior option selected. Of course it's just wood shelving, so you would just take it apart and move it out of the way. |
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Originally Posted By rssc:
The best feature of a double door safe like this is complete redundancy. If one lock malfunctions or you have any other problems, you just open the other door and then remove the malfunctioning lock and replace it and you're good to go. No drilling or anything else and you never lose access to your safe. Old bank vaults (and some modern European ones) used to have a small emergency access door for someone to crawl through in case the main door malfunctioned. It was just as strong and secure (if not more) as the main vault door. You can even use different brands of locks on the doors to really guarantee that they both won't fail at exactly the same. Or, you could put an electronic lock on one for quick access and mechanical lock on the other. Or, you can put a LA GARD redundant lock on each door so you have quick electronic access through the keypad, but if the electronics fail, you can still open the lock with the mechanical dial. Brown can also put a redundant lock on a single door safe. It's not as good as the full door redundancy like you have with a 2-door safe, but still better than just an electronic lock. This is great information that I never thought of. Thank you very much for bringing it up. I never really gave much thought to a double door but the redundancy aspect is very VERY appealing! I'm not sure that will work. The doors on my double Brown are tapered, so you open the right before the left. Icancheck to be sure, but fairly sure I cant open the left without first opening the right |
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Originally Posted By krecon1:
I'm not sure that will work. The doors on my double Brown are tapered, so you open the right before the left. Icancheck to be sure, but fairly sure I cant open the left without first opening the right My mistake if that's how they're making them now. I'll edit my post. It definitely increases the security of the safe, but me personally, would rather have redundancy. |
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Originally Posted By jimbojones21:
Originally Posted By krecon1:
I'm not sure that will work. The doors on my double Brown are tapered, so you open the right before the left. Icancheck to be sure, but fairly sure I cant open the left without first opening the right My mistake if that's how they're making them now. I'll edit my post. It definitely increases the security of the safe, but me personally, would rather have redundancy. Yeah, it's a no-go. Right must open before the left. Had I known about the internal divideder I would have added that to my safe. |
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So, just to update anyone that's interested in following along, my safe was delivered last week; a Sturdy 3627-7, 5 Gauge body, painted green, which is currently in my "gun room"! I'll get a pic or two up some time this week, I've been busy since I got back home.
The safe would have been here about 5-6 weeks earlier, but I had to take a 4 week trip to China for work. As my luck seems to go, Sturdy called me about a week before I was leaving to say it was done but they were waiting for the paint to fully cure before shipping, and they wanted to try to confirm a date on which I would be home to receive delivery. Unfortunately, it wouldn't have gotten here before I left, so Sturdy offered to hold it in their shop for me until I returned. Got back to the US, gave them a call, and I had the safe in my garage about 5 days later, including a weekend. Then the fun part of moving it out of the garage and to where I wanted it started. However, a good friend, Egyptian methodology to move heavy items (just dowel rods under the safe to roll it across the floor), and some ingenuity (and gravity), and the safe is now in place and being loaded up. Overall, I really like it. It's nothing fancy, but that's not what I cared about, and it seems like the build quality will more than do what I wanted it to, if the need were to arise. Now, I'm not saying the safe is ugly by any means, the painted finish is actually pretty nice, some inconsistencies are noticeable if you're looking for them in the finish, but overall it looks great to me. The safe arrived packaged up well, and the freight companies Sturdy used did their job well by not dinging the packaging up at all. I also had a small bottle of color matched touch-up paint inside the safe that came in handy after getting a few dings on the paint from moving it. |
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Originally Posted By Mabuz:
So, just to update anyone that's interested in following along, my safe was delivered last week; a Sturdy 3627-7, 5 Gauge body, painted green, which is currently in my "gun room"! I'll get a pic or two up some time this week, I've been busy since I got back home. The safe would have been here about 5-6 weeks earlier, but I had to take a 4 week trip to China for work. As my luck seems to go, Sturdy called me about a week before I was leaving to say it was done but they were waiting for the paint to fully cure before shipping, and they wanted to try to confirm a date on which I would be home to receive delivery. Unfortunately, it wouldn't have gotten here before I left, so Sturdy offered to hold it in their shop for me until I returned. Got back to the US, gave them a call, and I had the safe in my garage about 5 days later, including a weekend. Then the fun part of moving it out of the garage and to where I wanted it started. However, a good friend, Egyptian methodology to move heavy items (just dowel rods under the safe to roll it across the floor), and some ingenuity (and gravity), and the safe is now in place and being loaded up. Overall, I really like it. It's nothing fancy, but that's not what I cared about, and it seems like the build quality will more than do what I wanted it to, if the need were to arise. Now, I'm not saying the safe is ugly by any means, the painted finish is actually pretty nice, some inconsistencies are noticeable if you're looking for them in the finish, but overall it looks great to me. The safe arrived packaged up well, and the freight companies Sturdy used did their job well by not dinging the packaging up at all. I also had a small bottle of color matched touch-up paint inside the safe that came in handy after getting a few dings on the paint from moving it. Looking forward to seeing pictures.
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Sturdy vs. Brown vs. ??? (Page 2 of 3)
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