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Posted: 7/11/2010 10:49:52 AM EDT
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When your working up a load, checking velocity, playing with seating depth and trying to shrink you groups. What range do you test them at? If the load your developing is for long range should shoot your groups at say 500 instead of 100 yards? I read or heard that if your gun groups well at a 100 yards it might not at extended ranges. Is there any truth to this?
I rarely shoot at 100 yards with my .308. I mostly just go out and ring steel at 700 out to 1000. We shoot 12" x 12" ar 500 steel plates. I'm just happy to see them swing and here the ding. I want to try some lapua scenar bullets I have laying around and I'm just wondering whats the best way to come up with a good load. I always work my loads up starting in half grain increments until I get close to max then back down to like .2 increments, working up looking for pressure. Looking for good speed and consistent speeds aswell as groups size. Just looking for some advice. Thanks RM |
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RM
Changes in groups at 100 yards are not going to be linear with changes in groups at 500 yards. The change is going to be exponential to some degree. There are a lot of variables. Wind, gravity, velocity...you know the drill. Working up loads will certainly be more practical at 100. If you don't have a vehicle walking 500 through mud and muck gets old quick. However, sub-moa groups at 100 are probably still going to be "good" groups at 500 yards. I am with you, I don't shoot much at 100 yards, especially with .308. I am also happy just ringing steel. I shoot my .223 at 445 with nothing but an EOTech. That is on small humanoids that are about 7" by 12" or so. I shoot my Colt 9mm AR at 175+ and can even make hits on 13" by 25" steels at 300. I also shoot my .22LR out to 300. It always gets my attention when some guy pulls up to the range with a M1 Garand and starts shooting at the 185 yard targets. For the most part they miss. They get a big grin on their face, satisfied with shooting and having fun. Me? I'm plinking away at the targets at 445 with no magnification hitting with greater consistency on smaller targets. My theory is, if you want to be a good shot at 500 yards, then shoot at 500 yards. In saying that, it probably won't hurt you working up loads at 100. jonblack |
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Thanks for the reply John. The palma shooters and F class guys that shoot unreal groups at long range, do you know what method they use? I realize the equipment they use is better than my savage 10 and my budget optic. But the load development method they use might be helpful to guys like us who are just looikng to get on steel at long range.
Just a thought. Thanks RM |
| There's a guy named Chad over on Sniper's Hide that has done some load development for my son and his friend. Both Army Snipers. Jonathan said he tests at the 300 hundred yard range using ladder load development with the rifle you provide for intended load. What he winds up with as a finished load for each rifle is something beyond spec. They are heavy bullets like 208 AMAX in .308 and they don't group well at 100 yards. It usually takes 300 yards to stabilize them. His company is " Dallas Reloaders." Or something close to that. |
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First I must say I am jealous of your 1000yd range availablility... the place I shoot at is only 600yds... been trying to find a place to get out to 1000yds.
But as far as load testing. I use in my 308 168gr SMK IMR 4064 - 45gr CCI large rifle primer Hornady match brass 2.800" approx oal(hard to measure SMKs since the tips aren't always uniform and I don't have ogive measurement tool) Out of my 10FP I am geting 2825fps average w/ this load (24" barrel) My load testing was loading up in 0.5gr ... then taking (2) 5 shot groups off a bench with each load.. until I found what appeared to be the most accuate... you can tell where you accurate spikes... for me betwen 43.5 and 44gr I tightened my group up by 1.5MOA. I tested all these loads at 100yds, reason for this is because past 100yds you start getting environmental affects on the bullets so you cannot be sure if its you/wind/ammo causing said afffects on the target. From there I found 44gr as being the most accruate.. and then I went on to build up velocity... I went ahead and just jumped to 45gr and tested velocity/accuracy.. it gave me 80fps more over 44gr... gave me the same accuarcy so I stuck w/ it. I think this next shooting trip I plan to test 45.5-46gr to see if I get fast or if I show pressure signs just becuase I can haha. If I do my part... this ammo will shoot sub 0.3MOA all the way out to 600yds. Mike. |
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Quoted: Thanks for the reply John. The palma shooters and F class guys that shoot unreal groups at long range, do you know what method they use? I realize the equipment they use is better than my savage 10 and my budget optic. But the load development method they use might be helpful to guys like us who are just looikng to get on steel at long range. Just a thought. Thanks RM Ladder tests and chronographs to measure velocity spreads. |
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168 grain Sierra's are great 600 yard bullets, buy usually won't retain enough velocity to be competitive at 1000 yards. Try Sierra's 175 grain Match King instead.
If you have a 600 yard range available use it. That's a better testing base than anything shorter and still may not give you the information you need. I suggest you enter some 3x600 tournaments firing your rifle in the F-Class division. They allow scopes and bipods as well as rear bags. Front rests are allowed if you prefer them over bipods (I do). This will allow you to take the best loads you develop at the shorter ranges and actually shoot them at distance. You'll need at least 22 rounds for each of the three stages. Two of them (or more) are allowed for sighting shots. Shoot the first tournament using one load. The next stage using a different load and so on. This will give you a chance to see how each load performs over a twenty shot string at 600 yards. Honestly, this is the only way you can develop and test long range ammo. It will give you valueable feedback because after every shot the target is lowered and the bullet impact is marked with a spotter. You can graph it on paper using your scope. |
| I believe there are many rifles that shoot 1 MOA or less groups at 100 yards but are not capable of shooting MOA groups the further out the target is. It might be really easy for a rifle builder to guarantee 1 MOA at 100, but they know it won't hold that further out, and that's not what they guaranteed you anyway. |
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Quoted:
168 grain Sierra's are great 600 yard bullets, buy usually won't retain enough velocity to be competitive at 1000 yards. Try Sierra's 175 grain Match King instead. If you have a 600 yard range available use it. That's a better testing base than anything shorter and still may not give you the information you need. I suggest you enter some 3x600 tournaments firing your rifle in the F-Class division. They allow scopes and bipods as well as rear bags. Front rests are allowed if you prefer them over bipods (I do). This will allow you to take the best loads you develop at the shorter ranges and actually shoot them at distance. You'll need at least 22 rounds for each of the three stages. Two of them (or more) are allowed for sighting shots. Shoot the first tournament using one load. The next stage using a different load and so on. This will give you a chance to see how each load performs over a twenty shot string at 600 yards. Honestly, this is the only way you can develop and test long range ammo. It will give you valueable feedback because after every shot the target is lowered and the bullet impact is marked with a spotter. You can graph it on paper using your scope. I do shoot 175s. I just had some 155gr lapua scenars to burn up. I never said anything about 168s.  Though I have tried them but just had better luck with the 175s.
My brother told me about a ladder test method, where you color the bullets of your load ie. 5 bullets at 44.5gr blue, 5 bullets at 45 gr green and so on useing different colors for your different charge weights. You only need to color the tips until just before the o-give. Then shoot them at the same target at like 500 yards useing a white sheet of paper or tag board. Then you can see how your different lots group by the color of the hole in the paper. I hope I explained that right. Anybody try this? |
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Quoted:
My brother told me about a ladder test method, where you color the bullets of your load ie. 5 bullets at 44.5gr blue, 5 bullets at 45 gr green and so on useing different colors for your different charge weights. You only need to color the tips until just before the o-give. Then shoot them at the same target at like 500 yards useing a white sheet of paper or tag board. Then you can see how your different lots group by the color of the hole in the paper. I hope I explained that right. Anybody try this? I have not heard about this before but it is interesting. Tell us more, like what he used to color the bullets. Thanks jonblack |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
My brother told me about a ladder test method, where you color the bullets of your load ie. 5 bullets at 44.5gr blue, 5 bullets at 45 gr green and so on useing different colors for your different charge weights. You only need to color the tips until just before the o-give. Then shoot them at the same target at like 500 yards useing a white sheet of paper or tag board. Then you can see how your different lots group by the color of the hole in the paper. I hope I explained that right. Anybody try this? I have not heard about this before but it is interesting. Tell us more, like what he used to color the bullets. Thanks jonblack Use a sharpie. Don't use black, uncolored bullets tend to leave a blackish grayish circle around the hole. Once you have shot all your different loads, you can transfer the data to a plain sheet of paper or your shooting book. Place your target with all your holes with colored rings around them, over a sheet of paper and take a sharpie( the same color as the particular shots you want to transfer and color the holes. Do this for all the different loads on seperate pages and you can see clearly what loads grouped better, or what kind of stringing you are getting. The idea is not to hit the intended point of aim, say a black square or whatever, but to be above or below it to so you can be on a clean slate where it is easy to identify the marked bullets. Hope that clarified things a bit. I suck ass at explaining things. RM |
You cant just make a load and shoot out to 600 and expect accuracy. For ever new load you try, you gotta start at 100 yards and work your way out to the desired distance that you want to shoot at. So if you want to shoot at say 1000 with a new load I'd recommend 10 shots at every 100-150 yards.(if your range has this capability) That way you can see what your loads are doing along the entire distance. It is possible for loads to group well at 100 and 600 but terrible at 400.(just an example) Especially at the farther ranges as the 308 goes transonic (the time between supersonic and subsonic) the 308 becomes terribly unstable. But will restablize. Thats why some shooters can hit sub MOA at 1200 yards with a 308 because the bullet has slowed enough to restabalize itself. Given that your loads are "perfect" at that distance the shooter and elements are your biggest enemies. But since you've already shot out to 1000 yards ill assume you are a decent shot. 
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I just started using the "optimal charge weight method" as written up a fellow named Dan Newberry.
I just used it to develop a good .223 load using relatively lower grade components. I posted the results in the precision rifle forum,and probably here as well. It appears to have pretty good merit so far as I can tell,and uses less test loads than the ladder/audette method,as well as avoiding the issue of needing a bigger range as the ladder method requires. I found that the ladder method gave great results as well,but was more difficult to implement,and harder to read on the target than the OCW method. |
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