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Posted: 1/9/2016 1:04:58 AM EDT
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The 9mm Parabellum at 50 Yards
The fact is, that the 9mm Parabellum cartridge (aka 9mm Luger, 9x19mm) is every bit as accurate as the 45 ACP cartridge. The issue is, that there aren’t very many mass produced 9mm handguns that are capable of utilizing the intrinsic accuracy of the 9mm Parabellum cartridge, nor does typical factory loaded 9mm ammunition rise to the intrinsic level of the cartridge. As an example, using factory-loaded Federal 124 grain (+P) HST ammunition, my free-floated, Noveske barreled Colt 6450 produced a 10-shot group at 25 yards that had an extreme spread of 0.98”. On the other hand, the ubiquitous Glock 19 turned in a 10-shot group at 25 yards (fired from the bench) that had an extreme spread of 2.29”; more than double the extreme spread of the group fired from the Colt 6450. The Colt 6450, with its Noveske barrel has turned 10-shot groups at 25 yards that have extreme spreads of less than half an inch when using match-grade hand-loads. 
To demonstrate just how accurate the 9mm Parabellum cartridge can be, I conducted an accuracy (technically precision) evaluation of one of my most accurate hand-loads at a distance of 50 yards. This hand-load is topped with the Hornady 125 grain HAP bullet and the groups were fired from the Colt 6450. Three 10-shot groups were fired in a row with the following extreme spreads: 1.00” 0.85” 1.17” for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 1.01”. The smallest 10-shot group . . . 
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I'm not surprised. Any cartridge can be made that accurate with the right components and enough tinkering, especially fired from a purpose-built rifle like that.
What IS surprising is that the Glock did so well considering that its' barrel is about 10 times shorter. |
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What is surprising is that the Glock, lucky to be 15 MOA shooter, could even approach 2" groups at 25 yards. The thing is, you take 10 9x19 off-the-shelf guns and 10 .45 Auto off-the-shelf guns and I'll bet that the .45 beats the 9mm as a group. I have several .45s that can do 2" at 50 yards using a rest. I would consider myself lucky if ANY of my 9x19s could consistency do 2" at 25 yards even if I had a Ransom Rest. "Handloader" several years ago did a test with the S&W 952. It was running 3.0-4.5" at 30 yards with factory ammo and is a custom gun (why would they test at 30 yards? Like G&A does testing at 20 yards far too often). Bullseye shooters (NRA Precision Pistol) are getting their 9x19 close to .45 levels, but they are using 115gn jacketed bullets and 30:1 twist barrels. I wonder how good the .45 guns would be if the Army/AF/civilians spent as much money as they have their 9x19 competition guns. Using the Miller Twist Rate equation, which is NOT designed for pistols (but may still be comparable between two pistol cartridges): For a 124gn 0.355" bullet with a length of 0.4", a 40:1 twist gives an Sg or 1.95 (1.4-2.0 is the goal). I tried a 115gn bullet with a length of 0.35" (pure guesstimate) for a 44:1 twist rate and an Sg of 1.97. For a 200gn 0.453" bullet with a length of 0.64" (H&G #68), a 33:1 twist rate gives an Sg of 1.93. So, if they need a slow twist rate for 9x19 competition, they should also be using a slower twist rate for .45 (maybe 25:1?), but they never NEEDED to optimize twist rate to get great accuracy from a .45. |
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Is Noveske selling 9mm AR barrels now? I've been considering a SBR (10" to 11.5") in 9mm and would love to use a Noveske barrel.
What twist rate did you go with? 9mm seems to come in a wide range of twist rates depending on manufacturer. Hornady HAP bullets have been very accurate for me regardless of caliber. The only other bullet that seems to beat it is Nosler's 185 grain .45acp match bullet sold in 1000 bullet boxes. BTW - Thanks for contributing another great post Molon |
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I have never got my 9mm STI or any other 9mm handgun to shoot my handloads nearly as accurate as my .45. My Kimber prints one hole groups consistently at 15 yards. I'm happy to get 1.5" groups with my STI, and I almost always get a flier to screw the group. Now I'm interested in seeing what I can get out of my 9mm AR15. I"ve always used it as a fun gun and not really tested it's accuracy in a serious way.
I do think it is a little unrealistic to compare rifle results to a handgun though. I would think at that point it is more about the platform than the ammunition. |
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Quoted:
Is Noveske selling 9mm AR barrels now? I've been considering a SBR (10" to 11.5") in 9mm and would love to use a Noveske barrel. What twist rate did you go with? 9mm seems to come in a wide range of twist rates depending on manufacturer. Hornady HAP bullets have been very accurate for me regardless of caliber. The only other bullet that seems to beat it is Nosler's 185 grain .45acp match bullet sold in 1000 bullet boxes. BTW - Thanks for contributing another great post Molon The Noveske barrel has a 1:12" twist. |
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Okay, I need to take my kel tec sub 2000 out to 50 for giggles I routinely shoot my 40S&W Sub2K out to 100 yards shooting at 8" steel knockdowns. I don't hit every shot but hit plenty enough. I can't imaging the 9mm version being that much weaker and I would think the Sub2K in 9mm would be fantastic at 50 yards. Especially on a nice proper handload for the gun. |
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Interesting test and that is quite an accurate custom AR you have. I may have to throw a scope on my 9mm AR just to see what it can do. In all honesty, if my 9mm AR were to group 2" at 50 yards I would be astonished. Will the 9mm carbines average about a 6 MOA or so? Not counting specially tuned one's like the one shown earlier in this thread of course. |
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Yup. That's what I'm talkin' about! |
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Quoted: What's surprising to me is placing this thread in the reloading forum instead of the Pistol Caliber AR15 Forum. What does this have to do with reloading? Pic removed, this is a Technical forum. If you want to post foolish pics, go to GD, general discussion for that. Here are the rules; SPECIFIC TO THE TECH FORUMS The tech forums (Ar15,AK47,Handgun,Armory,Training,Outdoors) are more "formal" and actions permitted in the GD forum aren't permitted there. These forums are there to share information and as a result, trolling, heated arguments,insulting others,etc won't be ignored. dryflash3 |
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Yup. That's what I'm talkin' about! That's what I want. |
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To be honest, this is one reason I chose a 10.5" barrel for my short 9mm AR upper. It's much easier (and cheaper) to effectively bench rest a rifle than it is to do so with a pistol.
The Accuracy X test used a Ransom Rest, and they're sweet machines, but you need to spend $500 no have a solid (and dedicated) concrete shooting bench to make the most of a Ransom Rest. On the other hand, using established, well documented and repeatable bench resting techniques with an AR takes some quality sandbags and a little patience. I'll also point out from personal experience that the shooting bench plays a role in how well you can bench a rifle - if the bench moves, your rifle isn't really bench rested. |
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I'm not surprised. Any cartridge can be made that accurate with the right components and enough tinkering, especially fired from a purpose-built rifle like that. What IS surprising is that the Glock did so well considering that its' barrel is about 10 times shorter. I'd agree with you, that is had the .40 S&W never been invented. I've yet to see anything chambered in .40 shoot on par or outshoot the other 2 in the same platform. |
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Yup. That's what I'm talkin' about! |
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Very Nice ! I just bought a 9mm Upper.
Now I am going to have to throw a scope on it and check its accuracy ! Lol... 
So far, with a 3 MOA Red Dot at 50 yards... it liked the Swiss GECO 124gr FMJ best. Nice consistent group... most bullets touching. Winc. Nato 124gr FMJ load was "looser" grouping..... as well as Rem. 115gr FMJ. The oddity was Perfecta 115gr FMJ.... quite a few were in the same ragged hole... but just as many were fliers. We will see , first time out I was happy. |
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I'm a BE and Service Pistol shooter. 9mm will shoot amazingly tight groups if the gun is capable. CZ pistols are the most accurate mainstream 9mm pistols. I've gone to a CZ Target II for BullsEye and haven't looked back. With 147gr hand loads, I'm giving up nothing in the accuracy department to my .45. |
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I'll also point out from personal experience that the shooting bench plays a role in how well you can bench a rifle - if the bench moves, your rifle isn't really bench rested. Yup. https://app.box.com/shared/static/v8d40jbmaixv0rqcbcio15hlmvb9gbhh.jpg .... Try using a plastic topped picnic table as a base for your rest and see how "stable" your shooting is. It's frustrating, to say the least, to have a good rest, good bags, and good positioning, and then find that your first shot moves the whole thing... That's a whole big gripe session I'm going to hold off on for a while. 
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Interesting Post, good to see you posting again Molon, I always enjoy your technical analysis.
The Finns built their 9mm Suomi sub gun to very high accuracy expectations. Of course this has nothing to do with your reloads, but does speak to the inherent accuracy of the nine. Here is a photo of a 100 meter acceptance target for the 12" barreled KP-31 sub machine gun used to fight the "Winter War" against the Russians in 1939. Unfortunately the dimensions are not given, but the eye tells the story. Guns not meeting expectations were re-barreled, and they all came with two barrels with a matched POA, as the gun had quick change capability. 15 round semi group on the left, 50 round full auto burst on the right 
Link to Article |
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Quoted:
Interesting Post, good to see you posting again Molon, I always enjoy your technical analysis. The Finns built their 9mm Suomi sub gun to very high accuracy expectations. Of course this has nothing to do with your reloads, but does speak to the inherent accuracy of the nine. Here is a photo of a 100 meter acceptance target for the 12" barreled KP-31 sub machine gun used to fight the "Winter War" against the Russians in 1939. Unfortunately the dimensions are not given, but the eye tells the story. Guns not meeting expectations were re-barreled, and they all came with two barrels with a matched POA, as the gun had quick change capability. 15 round semi group on the left, 50 round full auto burst on the right http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad172/sureshot31/SuomiTarget_zpstutlsstq.jpg Link to Article If this quote from the article is correct: "Semi-automatic test shooting was conducted by factory test-shooters using just a simple bench rest. All ten shots must hit on the bullseye of the target at one hundred meters. Diameter of the bullseye was 100 millimeters . . ." 
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Thanks for a very informative post. I would gladly send you some Zero bullets to test. I have a theory that .356 diameter hollow points are the best choice in most 9mm's. In every Glock I have tried the Zero .356 JHP, they have produced good results. The Hap being .356 has always produced identical stellar results.
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Quoted:
Thanks for a very informative post. I would gladly send you some Zero bullets to test. I have a theory that .356 diameter hollow points are the best choice in most 9mm's. In every Glock I have tried the Zero .356 JHP, they have produced good results. The Hap being .356 has always produced identical stellar results. Thank you for your gracious offer, but I already have some of the Zero 125 grain JHP conical bullets on hand. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from a distance of 25 yards using the Zero bullets. The group has an extreme spread of 0.87". 
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Quoted:
Thanks for a very informative post. I would gladly send you some Zero bullets to test. I have a theory that .356 diameter hollow points are the best choice in most 9mm's. In every Glock I have tried the Zero .356 JHP, they have produced good results. The Hap being .356 has always produced identical stellar results. Are you referring to the 9 mm or the .38 super Zero bullets? Just asking because I see them listed online as being .355 and .356 respectively. Just last week I acquired and loaded some 147 gr and according to my calipers they were .356 which I felt is probably a good thing. |
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I think this is a great thread.
OP: can I ask what powder/charge/OAL you used with the Hornady HAP bullets? To the Bullseye shooters here who use 9mm, is there a prefered "accuracy load" for 50 yards, in your opinion? Care to share any of your accuracy tips for 9mm in general? TIA. |
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