Armory Sponsor
Posted: 9/15/2010 3:27:15 PM EDT
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Sorry if this topic has been beat to hell. I don't post much.
I'm planning on making a purchase for a YHM .22-MITE sound suppressor (mainly b/c of cost and the fact that I'm a college student and I can't exactly afford a $400+ suppressor). I was at the local police supply store (GT Distributors if anyone knows what it is). They told me that I have two options for getting the paperwork done: 1) Submit ATF Form 4 w/ fingerprints, passport photos, and Sheriff's signature. Getting the Sheriff to sign off shouldn't be a problem. Wait 3-6 months 2) Submit ATF Form 4 and spend ~$200 to form a Trust (clerk gave me a card for a Lawyer) and no need to sent prints, photos, and LEO signature. Wait 2-4 months. My main questions are: 1) Is getting a trust worth the money? Any potential risks going this route? 2) Is the wait time the clerk told me accurate? 3) Does anyone in the Austin, TX area know of any other reputable lawyers? 4) A friend told me that the trust route is "iffy" and that I may need to put an NFA Lawyer on my Speed Dial. Thanks. |
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Sorry if this topic has been beat to hell. I don't post much. I'm planning on making a purchase for a YHM .22-MITE sound suppressor (mainly b/c of cost and the fact that I'm a college student and I can't exactly afford a $400+ suppressor). I was at the local police supply store (GT Distributors if anyone knows what it is). They told me that I have two options for getting the paperwork done: 1) Submit ATF Form 4 w/ fingerprints, passport photos, and Sheriff's signature. Getting the Sheriff to sign off shouldn't be a problem. Wait 3-6 months 2) Submit ATF Form 4 and spend ~$200 to form a Trust (clerk gave me a card for a Lawyer) and no need to sent prints, photos, and LEO signature. Wait 2-4 months. My main questions are: 1) Is getting a trust worth the money? Any potential risks going this route? Yes, its worth it, there is actually LESS Risk going trust route, its an entity. 2) Is the wait time the clerk told me accurate? Wait times are what they are, no matter trust or Individual 3) Does anyone in the Austin, TX area know of any other reputable lawyers? cant help you here 4) A friend told me that the trust route is "iffy" and that I may need to put an NFA Lawyer on my Speed Dial. Your friend is a fucking moron and you can tell him I said so. Trust route is as legal as LLC, association, partnerships and individual, there is no need to have an NFA lawyer you speeddial, if you must be friends with this tool, please stop taking his advice Thanks. You also need citizenship form and I think something else when going individual, not sure as I went Trust route. |
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I had a friend use Quicken to make my trust and I have two suppressors on it already, so the trust is good to go.
Look around before you pay someone $200 to start a trust, because that is pretty high. I prefer to the trust as it does seem a bit faster on the approval and is alot less hoops to jump through once the trust is set up. |
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I had a friend use Quicken to make my trust and I have two suppressors on it already, so the trust is good to go. Look around before you pay someone $200 to start a trust, because that is pretty high. $200bux to setup trust is actually average to below average for a lawyer to do it I prefer to the trust as it does seem a bit faster on the approval and is alot less hoops to jump through once the trust is set up. |
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the two shops i have dealt with for my suppressors and a sbr both said go the individual route anytime you can. a few reasons they gave were its cheaper and just cause you make a trust on will maker or whatever other program and get your stamp approved dosent always mean you are legal(whatever that means).
there are some advantages of going the other ways. no signoffs needed, others can be added and use your items whan you are not there(wife,etc.), and i think things can be transfered to others but i could be wrong on that. |
| I went with individual. Took two months to get it back. Paperwork wasnt bad either. For me,I got the paperwork from the dealer, went to the Sheriff's Office, they took my prints for $5, then walked upstairs and the Sheriff signed it within 10 minutes. Took the paperwork back and mailed it. |
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Go ahead and get a trust. You can add/remove people as you see fit. Also, I know that after you get one, you'll get more. Who wants to deal with getting prints and waiting on a LEO to sign your form each time? A trust has to be quicker as well, no waiting on background checks as trusts don't have backgrounds to check. |
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Sorry if this topic has been beat to hell. I don't post much. I'm planning on making a purchase for a YHM .22-MITE sound suppressor (mainly b/c of cost and the fact that I'm a college student and I can't exactly afford a $400+ suppressor). I was at the local police supply store (GT Distributors if anyone knows what it is). They told me that I have two options for getting the paperwork done: 1) Submit ATF Form 4 w/ fingerprints, passport photos, and Sheriff's signature. Getting the Sheriff to sign off shouldn't be a problem. Wait 3-6 months 2) Submit ATF Form 4 and spend ~$200 to form a Trust (clerk gave me a card for a Lawyer) and no need to sent prints, photos, and LEO signature. Wait 2-4 months. My main questions are: 1) Is getting a trust worth the money? Any potential risks going this route? Yeah, you will want more NFA items when you get your first one done. 2) Is the wait time the clerk told me accurate? Pretty much, but 200 is cheap for a Lawyer to do it. 3) Does anyone in the Austin, TX area know of any other reputable lawyers? Not sure of Austin, but Sean Cody ([email protected]) is the person to talk to in Texas if you want a trust done. I know for a fact that he has done hundreds of trust for people around the state. For some reason the CLEO in Texas in the major cities do not sign off and most people go with the trust route. 4) A friend told me that the trust route is "iffy" and that I may need to put an NFA Lawyer on my Speed Dial. Does your friend have any NFA items or did he get his learn on from the interwebs? Thanks. |
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On the topics of trusts. If I start one with just me and then want to add a person later how do I do it? Do they need to go through some kind of background check or is it just resubmitting the form or just updating the trust paperwork with the local county? wow..you need to talk to a Trust/family lawyer. Basically you are treating the trust like a WILL, which is what it is, if you are adding something or someone , you go see the lawyer just like you would if you were updating a WILL> It has nothing to do with the BATFE |
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The county doesn't have anything to do with it either.
I established a trust so my son would inherit trusteeship of it on my demise, and not have to incur any transfer fees or red tape along the way, simply assuming control of the trusteeship. The items in the trust are owned by the trust and administered by me, my heir(s), and anyone else I include in the declaration as a trustee. Trustees can be added or removed at will, simply by having the sheet naming them altered and then notarized. There is no filing with the county, state, or federal govt. Adding items to the trust inventory is done the same way, after purchasing said item and getting the serial number, simply add it to the inventory sheet and have it notarized, then submit a copy of the trust paperwork with the application for the tax stamp and wait. I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice, merely a description of my management of the trust I have established for my heir(s). |
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Thanks that answered most of my questions. Why does a individual need to go through all the hassle of fingerprints and a CLEO sign off when with a trust you just pay and wait? It seems almost too easy especially when you want to add people, just update the trustee sheet, notarize and attach to your copy? I take it that you also need to keep a copy of the trust paperwork with you tax stamp to be legal so you can prove to LEO that you actually own and can use said item?
Is that really all there is to it or am I missing some vital part of the process? Doesn't seem right that a individual has to jump through tons of hoops but a trust bypasses most of them and stops the issues of your children having to cough up the $200.00 cash each when you die. |
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Thanks that answered most of my questions. Why does a individual need to go through all the hassle of fingerprints and a CLEO sign off when with a trust you just pay and wait? It seems almost too easy especially when you want to add people, just update the trustee sheet, notarize and attach to your copy? I take it that you also need to keep a copy of the trust paperwork with you tax stamp to be legal so you can prove to LEO that you actually own and can use said item? Is that really all there is to it or am I missing some vital part of the process? Doesn't seem right that a individual has to jump through tons of hoops but a trust bypasses most of them and stops the issues of your children having to cough up the $200.00 cash each when you die. A trust is an entity, there is no real way to do a background check on a fictional thing (meaning an entity wont have fingerprints, etc) Going individual route has them doing background checks and that takes longer. (Im simplifying the explaination, im sure there is more to it). The only thing you need to keep with the firearm is a copy of the Form 1 or Form 4 , no need to keep the trust paperwork with firearm, LEO isnt going to know what a trust is suppose to do, most time they dont even know what they are looking at on the Form1/4, they just look at it and assume its correct. Before WILLMAKER, most Trusts were expensive to setup, its bad enuff paying 200bux for the stamp each time. Most ppl didnt want to go thru all the hassles. I live in a NON Signing CLEO area, so the Trust route was the only way, plus you can use a Trust for other purposes. That $200 bux we pay, while it sux , is the only tax that hasnt increased EVER, it was designed to only allow the RICH to purchase NFA items and im sure it helped off set the cost to operate the BATFE branch. who knows for sure. People think the Trust route is something new, Its nothing new and has been an option since 1934 with the NFA Act first came on the scene. Also, not just Trusts or LLCs, but Partnerships and associations can own NFA items. Also the CLEO isnt the only person to sign, there are judges and anyone high up with arrest capability. |
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I set up my trust using Quicken as a basis, modified it slightly, then had an estate planning attorney look it over. Briefly explained NFA. He said mine will be fine for what I want it to do. Mine is a valid trust, and he said the overall language wasn't his style but would suffice. I may do a restatement and amendment to trust in the future to fine tune it, but there weren't the much-publicized trust-invalidating errors alluded to on websites. I still feel it was worth the effort to have a trust specialist review it.
We talked about the successor trustee needing to check on current NFA requirements upon my death. That needs to be put in the letter to successor. If only I had any NFA stuff now. The trust only has some cash and a couple stripped lowers. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
| I have read conflicting reports on whether you need to send in the citizenship form when going the trust route. Surely a trust has no citizenship and when you pick up the can you still have go through a 4473 as an individual at your Class III dealer anyway, so does anyone have the definitive answer on that? |
Some examiners want the Citizenship form for the Grantor of the trust, as they are transferring the materials/items to the schedule A. Some don't require the citizenship form. I send a Citizenship form with every Form 1/Form 4 I send with the trust name as Item 1 and my name as Item 2. I haven't had one turned down yet 
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Some examiners want the Citizenship form for the Grantor of the trust, as they are transferring the materials/items to the schedule A. Some don't require the citizenship form. I send a Citizenship form with every Form 1/Form 4 I send with the trust name as Item 1 and my name as Item 2. I haven't had one turned down yet I can find the Form 4 and other forms on the ATF website but don't see the citizenship form, anyone have a link to that form? |
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In one of the recent FFL newsletters it said that the citizen ship form was not required for trusts, but my local SOT said that some had been kicked back. It's one sheet of paper. I always send more rather than less.
As far as Trusts being to good to be true, you have to go back to 1934 and read some history. The government was trying to keep NFA item out of the hands of the individual. The big corporations made sure that they could still get machine guns. Only the Internet and Quicken type software made trusts and even corporations available to the little guy. |
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I am going individual for now, It is my understanding that the tax write offs for work related items will evaporate Jan 1. My question is if I go this route, and in 10 or so years want to set up a trust so that my kid can use the NFA items without my immediate presence, will it take a $200 tax to transfer the NFA items that I own to the trust?
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I am going individual for now, It is my understanding that the tax write offs for work related items will evaporate Jan 1. My question is if I go this route, and in 10 or so years want to set up a trust so that my kid can use the NFA items without my immediate presence, will it take a $200 tax to transfer the NFA items that I own to the trust? Yip, you get to pay another $200bux. you are transferring from an individual to an entity like a trust, doesnt matter that its the same person doing it. |
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Some examiners want the Citizenship form for the Grantor of the trust, as they are transferring the materials/items to the schedule A. Some don't require the citizenship form. I send a Citizenship form with every Form 1/Form 4 I send with the trust name as Item 1 and my name as Item 2. I haven't had one turned down yet I can find the Form 4 and other forms on the ATF website but don't see the citizenship form, anyone have a link to that form? Link to the citizenship form (cert. of compliance, 5330.20): http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5330-20.pdf |
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I had a friend use Quicken to make my trust and I have two suppressors on it already, so the trust is good to go. Look around before you pay someone $200 to start a trust, because that is pretty high. I prefer to the trust as it does seem a bit faster on the approval and is alot less hoops to jump through once the trust is set up. I also used quicken, although my first suppressor still hasn't been approved... (I am no 62 days in since my check was cashed). $200 actually sounds cheap. I was quoted $600 for a basic trust here 
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I had a friend use Quicken to make my trust and I have two suppressors on it already, so the trust is good to go. Look around before you pay someone $200 to start a trust, because that is pretty high. I prefer to the trust as it does seem a bit faster on the approval and is alot less hoops to jump through once the trust is set up. I also used quicken, although my first suppressor still hasn't been approved... (I am no 62 days in since my check was cashed). $200 actually sounds cheap. I was quoted $600 for a basic trust here
hopefully you included some NFA specific language in your trust |
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I had a friend use Quicken to make my trust and I have two suppressors on it already, so the trust is good to go. Look around before you pay someone $200 to start a trust, because that is pretty high. I prefer to the trust as it does seem a bit faster on the approval and is alot less hoops to jump through once the trust is set up. I also used quicken, although my first suppressor still hasn't been approved... (I am no 62 days in since my check was cashed). $200 actually sounds cheap. I was quoted $600 for a basic trust here
hopefully you included some NFA specific language in your trust I think I mentioned something about paperclips, rubber bands, and shoelaces in there somewhere. ATF should get a kick out of that. 
Just called the ATF, paperwork went pending on Auguest 25th. He said their goal is to have them approved within 4 months of it going pending. |
Armory Sponsor