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Posted: 5/3/2023 8:18:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wearing armor is a hassle. More armor is more of a hassle. But I've probably watched 100+ drone drop videos from first Syria and now Ukraine. With a ground impacting 30mm or 40mm VOG, the vast majority of the wounds look to be fragmentation to the legs. So if one is talking about shifting focus from rifle plates to more frag protection, then it stands to reason to focus on protecting areas that are actually receiving the most frag. Soooo none? I don't remember anyone advocating dropping rifle plates. There are plenty of videos of dudes getting shot by rifles... And as terrified as I would be of catching frag in my junk, I'd rather take some frag to the lower extremity that is, in large part, able to be TQ'd, then drop my rifle plates to wear a quilt and have any type of sucking chest wound from a round zipping through my torso. |
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Posted: 5/3/2023 10:55:34 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Soooo none? I don't remember anyone advocating dropping rifle plates. There are plenty of videos of dudes getting shot by rifles... And as terrified as I would be of catching frag in my junk, I'd rather take some frag to the lower extremity that is, in large part, able to be TQ'd, then drop my rifle plates to wear a quilt and have any type of sucking chest wound from a round zipping through my torso. The other question is, how many Russians have TQ available, and with the shit logistics they have what is the chance of having a medic, Medivac, or hospital care for that matter. Its something that my resemble where this country may be heading at. Lack of logistical support, and trying to be self reliant. No doubt the reason we have seen some of the Russian soldiers suck starting their Kalashnikov. They know they will lay there in agony bleeding to death. May as well get it over with. I could see being so bogged down in armor that you end up easy pickings. Its a hard question to answer. I will keep what I have but I will plan to get a ballistic helmet to add to the mix at some point. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 1:58:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Soooo none? I don't remember anyone advocating dropping rifle plates. There are plenty of videos of dudes getting shot by rifles... And as terrified as I would be of catching frag in my junk, I'd rather take some frag to the lower extremity that is, in large part, able to be TQ'd, then drop my rifle plates to wear a quilt and have any type of sucking chest wound from a round zipping through my torso. That's why the frag kilt idea is just to cover your pelvis from penetrating frag. Ideally it would be even shorter like a frag skirt so you can move your legs more freely and make jokes with the boys. It could velcro under a two piece belt system and extend about halfway down the thigh. Maybe two size versions, a frag skirt and a frag kilt, one that goes halfway down the thigh and one that goes past the knee, for different mobility/protection scaling. Kevlar shoulder covers might start making a lot of sense too, since that is an entry angle to the vitals from an airburst. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 2:18:56 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, I've only ridden in Amtracks and they don't have shit. Ridden on top of tanks, but not in them. I thought the Army had cooling vests that hook up to a chilled water system in the tank, but maybe that was an experiment. Installing an air conditioner in a vehicle wouldn't even need to involve finding somewhere to install it. They make portable air conditioners now that actually do fit inside a day pack and just need a power source and somewhere to run an air hose to for venting hot air. The vehicle just needs to have a power outlet and a window or hatch that can be cracked. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 2:24:37 PM EDT
[#5]
Figured tracking and triangulation of the transmitter/pilots location and some 155mm counter-battery fire would be a priority.
In other words harder for enemy to replace a skilled operator than a small inexpensive drone |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 2:35:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No tanks have A/C. LeClerc, kind of. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 2:36:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @stanprophet09 Do you think they make sense as a battlefield logistics solution? For example, how many ammo cans and MRE boxes could that hexcopter lift and how far could it actually carry them? I’m interested in the communications possibilities. Modern carrier pigeons! |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 2:37:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Early days yet in dealing with "Attack" or "Recon" drones. I expect that progressing technology will play a part in attack/defense concerning such drones. One thing's for sure: Drones are here to stay, and they can be effective.
I suspect (not being an Expert) that there is a "certain" level of "detectability" of drones, likely based on their size, composition, and electronic/sonic/visual signature. Everyone will be trying to minimize drone detection, while maximizing detectability of enemy drones. Same thing with the "radar war" with U-boats during WW2. Suggest (no Expert) that "detectability" is key to providing effective electronic/kinetic countermeasures. Can't "see" it, can't hit it. I suspect specific electronic/kinetic anti-drone countermeasures are in their infancy, and changing due to progressive drone construction. Adding-on yet more armor to ground troops seems to me to be like adding-on steel helmets during WWI; useful, but not entirely effective/useful. The Germans had the provision for an additional steel plate to be hooked over the Frankenstein lugs of their WW 1 helmets, but few wore it due to its' weight. Not an option on issued WW 2 German helmets. I expect that current technology has a certain "plateau" for drone development, as with all things. Perhaps not yet reached, but it is there. It's certain that effective drone detection and countermeasures are being researched, along with making drones less detectable. I expect that the Russians have the necessary brain-power/research capability to do so, but perhaps not the necessary components and infrastructure to manufacture such items in quantity. Ukrainians will likely benefit from Western research and provided equipment. "Interesting Times" for sure! I have no "special knowledge", just writing with a background including general technological advances, and military technology in particular. Note that there were no acronyms used in above post. 
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Posted: 5/4/2023 2:43:37 PM EDT
[#9]
Recon drones have been around since the 1970's. Attack has been around since the 90's.
Even the modified COTS drones have been around en masse since about 2014. This is nowhere near a new or even new-ish problem. Quoted: Kevlar shoulder covers might start making a lot of sense too, since that is an entry angle to the vitals from an airburst. The Army tried that years ago and it was an absolute disaster. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 2:47:38 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Installing an air conditioner in a vehicle wouldn't even need to involve finding somewhere to install it. They make portable air conditioners now that actually do fit inside a day pack and just need a power source and somewhere to run an air hose to for venting hot air. The vehicle just needs to have a power outlet and a window or hatch that can be cracked. I'll go back to my original comment that this shouldn't matter in Ukraine- it is not hot there and most of the open hatch drone drops looked to be on parked vehicles, many with no crew. Close your hatch when you lagger up on the front lines. Better bunkers/fighting holes as well |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 2:53:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll go back to my original comment that this shouldn't matter in Ukraine- it is not hot there and most of the open hatch drone drops looked to be on parked vehicles, many with no crew. Close your hatch when you lagger up on the front lines. Better bunkers/fighting holes as well A/C isn't a thing even when it's hot out for a reason, and that reason is not that they hate soldiers and love seeing us suffer. The vehicle would need a mechanism to provide enough amperage to run an air conditioner without draining the batteries and killing vital systems. A tiny air conditioner would do little to nothing aside from cooling maybe one person anyway. The Abrams had to add an EAPU generator to keep the batteries charged when the engine wasn't running, that generator is not going to run an air conditioner when the engine is off, which is most of the time when not actually driving. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 3:56:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A/C isn't a thing even when it's hot out for a reason, and that reason is not that they hate soldiers and love seeing us suffer. The vehicle would need a mechanism to provide enough amperage to run an air conditioner without draining the batteries and killing vital systems. A tiny air conditioner would do little to nothing aside from cooling maybe one person anyway. The Abrams had to add an EAPU generator to keep the batteries charged when the engine wasn't running, that generator is not going to run an air conditioner when the engine is off, which is most of the time when not actually driving. Current AFVs have add-on A/C for electronic components, but not for crew, AFAIK. As mentioned previously, retrofitting full-scale A/C within an AFV is a very substantial task, likely requiring a complete factory/armory level of work, and considerable expense. Just my own opinion, but the Army will likely buy/build a new tank (with full-scale A/C) and maybe retrofit A/C to existing M1 tanks. I wouldn't hold my breath on such retrofitting. Possibly added-on crew A/C is one of the many reasons for retiring the M1 Abram. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 4:01:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A/C isn't a thing even when it's hot out for a reason, and that reason is not that they hate soldiers and love seeing us suffer. The vehicle would need a mechanism to provide enough amperage to run an air conditioner without draining the batteries and killing vital systems. A tiny air conditioner would do little to nothing aside from cooling maybe one person anyway. The Abrams had to add an EAPU generator to keep the batteries charged when the engine wasn't running, that generator is not going to run an air conditioner when the engine is off, which is most of the time when not actually driving. AFAIK, with the M1 being considered for replacement, I reckon adding on A/C to existing tanks is not a priority, although it ought to be, IMHO. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 4:02:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IIRC, just watching a vid on YouTube, Army's new "All-Purpose" armored vehicle, just now being delivered, has air conditioning. Current AFVs have add-on A/C for electronic components, but not for crew, AFAIK. As mentioned previously, retrofitting full-scale A/C within an AFV is a very substantial task, likely requiring a complete factory/armory level of work, and considerable expense. Just my own opinion, but the Army will likely buy/build a new tank (with full-scale A/C) and maybe retrofit A/C to existing M1 tanks. I wouldn't hold my breath on such retrofitting. Possibly added-on crew A/C is one of the many reasons for retiring the M1 Abram. AFV's are not tanks, and they have more room for other systems and do not have to sling a giant heavy turret under electrical power. The AMPV is also not a tank. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 4:06:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: . AFV's are not tanks, and they have more room for other systems and do not have to sling a giant heavy turret under electrical power. The AMPV is also not a tank. PLS check your IMs. We both have useful things to say; regret that we have somehow become "opponents". i expect most folks have seen our "adversarial" comments in different threads. I was advised by Mod/Staff to "ignore" you lest either of our accounts be sanctioned. Not so sure how that opposition happened, but sometimes folks with strong opinions differ. Sometimes folks just make mistakes. If I made mistakes in my past posts, I regret them, and welcome corrective posts by others. That's how we all learn. I would like both of us to be respectful and polite to each other, instead of adversaries. "Olive Branch" offered in IM, and here. Am looking forward to both of us being polite and respectful to each other. Response requested. Sincerely, raf. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 4:30:59 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A/C isn't a thing even when it's hot out for a reason, and that reason is not that they hate soldiers and love seeing us suffer. The vehicle would need a mechanism to provide enough amperage to run an air conditioner without draining the batteries and killing vital systems. A tiny air conditioner would do little to nothing aside from cooling maybe one person anyway. The Abrams had to add an EAPU generator to keep the batteries charged when the engine wasn't running, that generator is not going to run an air conditioner when the engine is off, which is most of the time when not actually driving. Whatever comes after the Abrams will have a shit ton of electrical power both with and without the engine running. Whether they’ll want an AC then (and those are much lower draw now if you want them to be) is another question. It’s technically feasible though. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 5:59:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Using the Abrams as a template for a future tank is "failure-thinking". Kinda like fighting the last/previous war.
One would hope that future AFVs would improve on current platforms in many ways, air conditioning for the crew being one of many possible improvements. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 7:00:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its something that my resemble where this country may be heading at. Lack of logistical support, and trying to be self reliant. Quote HistoryQuoted: Its something that my resemble where this country may be heading at. Lack of logistical support, and trying to be self reliant. In what context (civ or mil?). And regardless, why do you say that? Quoted: That's why the frag kilt idea is just to cover your pelvis from penetrating frag. Ideally it would be even shorter like a frag skirt so you can move your legs more freely and make jokes with the boys. It could velcro under a two piece belt system and extend about halfway down the thigh. Maybe two size versions, a frag skirt and a frag kilt, one that goes halfway down the thigh and one that goes past the knee, for different mobility/protection scaling. Kevlar shoulder covers might start making a lot of sense too, since that is an entry angle to the vitals from an airburst. What experience do you have that makes all of this seem like people would actually wear it? Quoted: Installing an air conditioner in a vehicle wouldn't even need to involve finding somewhere to install it. They make portable air conditioners now that actually do fit inside a day pack and just need a power source and somewhere to run an air hose to for venting hot air. The vehicle just needs to have a power outlet and a window or hatch that can be cracked. How much time do you have in military vehicles? In an operational environment, they're almost always packed full. Many don't have random power outlets, especially ones that aren't being used for mission essential equipment, and all of the armored ones are essentially sealed so you can't just duct tape it to an open window. Up-armored HMMWV windows can only be opened like two inches, you really have to open the door to talk to anyone outside. Quoted: Figured tracking and triangulation of the transmitter/pilots location and some 155mm counter-battery fire would be a priority. In other words harder for enemy to replace a skilled operator than a small inexpensive drone A lot of the COTS versions don't take much skill to fly. Dropping ordnance, I have no idea, but flying isn't too hard. Counter fire would likely be effective in the PsyOps side though. Drone pilots will probably be a lot more hesitant to fly if they start getting IDF minutes after launching so the idea definitely has merit. Quoted:Note that there were no acronyms used in above post. Well yeah, you really didn't say anything of any value. All of your posts in this thread have been vague generalizations that lots of people could come up with. Quoted: I'll go back to my original comment that this shouldn't matter in Ukraine- it is not hot there and most of the open hatch drone drops looked to be on parked vehicles, many with no crew. Close your hatch when you lagger up on the front lines. Better bunkers/fighting holes as well Lots of mil vehicles get hot as shit inside though, regardless of outside temp. Doors and windows are often left open for communications too. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 7:21:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IIRC, just watching a vid on YouTube, Army's new "All-Purpose" armored vehicle, just now being delivered, has air conditioning. Current AFVs have add-on A/C for electronic components, but not for crew, AFAIK. As mentioned previously, retrofitting full-scale A/C within an AFV is a very substantial task, likely requiring a complete factory/armory level of work, and considerable expense. Just my own opinion, but the Army will likely buy/build a new tank (with full-scale A/C) and maybe retrofit A/C to existing M1 tanks. I wouldn't hold my breath on such retrofitting. Possibly added-on crew A/C is one of the many reasons for retiring the M1 Abram. The JLTV has been out for a little while and does have A/C, as do a lot of armored vehicles. I can't speak to tanks or Brads but general rule of thumb for light vehicles is that if its armored, it has A/C. Whether or not it is functional and/or effective is an entirely different conversation. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 7:51:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The JLTV has been out for a little while and does have A/C, as do a lot of armored vehicles. I can't speak to tanks or Brads but general rule of thumb for light vehicles is that if its armored, it has A/C. Whether or not it is functional and/or effective is an entirely different conversation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: IIRC, just watching a vid on YouTube, Army's new "All-Purpose" armored vehicle, just now being delivered, has air conditioning. Current AFVs have add-on A/C for electronic components, but not for crew, AFAIK. As mentioned previously, retrofitting full-scale A/C within an AFV is a very substantial task, likely requiring a complete factory/armory level of work, and considerable expense. Just my own opinion, but the Army will likely buy/build a new tank (with full-scale A/C) and maybe retrofit A/C to existing M1 tanks. I wouldn't hold my breath on such retrofitting. Possibly added-on crew A/C is one of the many reasons for retiring the M1 Abram. The JLTV has been out for a little while and does have A/C, as do a lot of armored vehicles. I can't speak to tanks or Brads but general rule of thumb for light vehicles is that if its armored, it has A/C. Whether or not it is functional and/or effective is an entirely different conversation. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 8:09:28 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your comment above is "a vague generalization[s] that lots of people could come up with." Correct. I also didn't include a lame comment about acronyms that was pointed towards someone that actually provides valuable input in this convo. |
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Posted: 5/4/2023 8:52:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct. I also didn't include a lame comment about acronyms that was pointed towards someone that actually provides valuable input in this convo. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Your comment above is "a vague generalization[s] that lots of people could come up with." Correct. I also didn't include a lame comment about acronyms that was pointed towards someone that actually provides valuable input in this convo. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 2:35:10 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Recon drones have been around since the 1970's. Attack has been around since the 90's. Even the modified COTS drones have been around en masse since about 2014. This is nowhere near a new or even new-ish problem. The Army tried that years ago and it was an absolute disaster. More of a disaster than frag going through your shoulder and into your vitals? |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 3:54:13 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More of a disaster than frag going through your shoulder and into your vitals? Yes, because the corresponding negative effects of a reduction in mobility and an increase in the potential for heat injuries is a much higher statistical probability than taking airbursting drone grenades. That's how force protection and risk acceptance work. The vast majority of drone dropped munitions are modified and/or improvised and have no airburst function. Also, have you ever tried to carry a backpack with DAPS on? |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 7:47:32 AM EDT
[#25]
Well there it is. The point being you can't be so influenced by the coverage of things, such as drones, that you forget how the added weight and range of motion will affect you in other ways.
Or go turtle up. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 8:20:05 AM EDT
[#26]
I think I'd rather carry a man portable jammer than uparmor everywhere and become a heat casualty that can't move very well.
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Posted: 5/5/2023 8:49:41 AM EDT
[#27]
I'm with daemon on this one, you just can't armor up to solve the problem.
Sure, the infantryman will make whatever he can to live better during war and increase his survivability, be it wearing crochet helmet covers in winter, strap police kevlar vests to their hummer doors or use overhead fishing nets against drones. However we still don't have portable force fields or Starcraft type powered combat suits, so you can armor up to a certain point. How much is the most protection you think a soldier can have? A bomb suit for everyone? i don't think it is feasible. let's say a IED may pose a similar shrapnel threat to a drone dropped grenade. USMC for Iraq war fielded 5000 sets of "full body" frag protection, the Quadgard IV. They used it for turret gunners. Would you think this is a viable option? I think not.  I am against the general consensus when i say the army have been doing good studies on armor, trying to slim armor design down to a certain point. For sure they highlighted the importance of pelvic protection (i wore the tier 2 and it's reasonably usable, can be carried stowed and quickly deployed). I am also of the stout opinion that if you give infantrymen money to buy whatever they want and the freedom of choice a significant percentage of them wouldn't wear any armor (probably just a fast type ballistic helmet) and just take the risk. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 9:12:25 AM EDT
[#28]
If you have a transmitter you can be detected, with the right gear this can be quick <30s, that means you can be targeted accurately and hit quickly.
Moreover, what is been seen in UA, although interesting, reflects both sides inability to mount highly mobile, effective combined arms actions with air superiority. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 4:42:53 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you have a transmitter you can be detected, with the right gear this can be quick <30s, that means you can be targeted accurately and hit quickly. Quote HistoryQuoted: If you have a transmitter you can be detected, with the right gear this can be quick <30s, that means you can be targeted accurately and hit quickly. Maybe. Depends upon what kind of link you're using. Directional links are much harder to detect, as at that point you're basically looking for any spurious emissions outside of the direction the antenna is pointing, and in an EW-heavy battlefield like UA, let alone one where at least one of the combatants is modern, that can be even harder. Also frequency shifting and hopping, burst transmissions, and more can make any kind of RDF take longer at the very least. But that's why we built tools like the HARM. Quoted: Moreover, what is been seen in UA, although interesting, reflects both sides inability to mount highly mobile, effective combined arms actions with air superiority. Well. *One* side is trying to do that, the other has AA that can't even stop regular drones with precisely zero air superiority. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 7:08:32 PM EDT
[#30]
I think some folks are missing the point here. The best defense against any attack is being undetectable. If the OPFOR know where you are they will use whatever is available to neutralize the threat. If drone dropped grenades don’t kill you, mortars will. If mortars won’t do it, time for bigger artillery. Especially if you’re bogged down with mobility-reducing full-body armor, your mobility is hindered making you an easier target.
Further, as has been brought up numerous times in this forum, how is this situation to be solved by civilians? If we’re going to jump the shark and assume civilians are being targeted by drones, I doubt the Army’s 50 pounds of body condom armor is a solution. Avoidance and minimal RF outputs is the solution. Other than that I’m not sure what options you have. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 9:02:07 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, because the corresponding negative effects of a reduction in mobility and an increase in the potential for heat injuries is a much higher statistical probability than taking airbursting drone grenades. That's how force protection and risk acceptance work. The vast majority of drone dropped munitions are modified and/or improvised and have no airburst function. Also, have you ever tried to carry a backpack with DAPS on? If the grenade being dropped has a fuse, then airbursting is just a matter of timing the height of release. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 9:12:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the grenade being dropped has a fuse, then airbursting is just a matter of timing the height of release. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes, because the corresponding negative effects of a reduction in mobility and an increase in the potential for heat injuries is a much higher statistical probability than taking airbursting drone grenades. That's how force protection and risk acceptance work. The vast majority of drone dropped munitions are modified and/or improvised and have no airburst function. Also, have you ever tried to carry a backpack with DAPS on? If the grenade being dropped has a fuse, then airbursting is just a matter of timing the height of release. Air bursting time fuzes sucks, that why VT was an amazing break through. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 9:16:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think some folks are missing the point here. The best defense against any attack is being undetectable. If the OPFOR know where you are they will use whatever is available to neutralize the threat. If drone dropped grenades don’t kill you, mortars will. If mortars won’t do it, time for bigger artillery. Especially if you’re bogged down with mobility-reducing full-body armor, your mobility is hindered making you an easier target. Further, as has been brought up numerous times in this forum, how is this situation to be solved by civilians? If we’re going to jump the shark and assume civilians are being targeted by drones, I doubt the Army’s 50 pounds of body condom armor is a solution. Avoidance and minimal RF outputs is the solution. Other than that I’m not sure what options you have. There have been some stories of guys breaking opsec by posting on Telegram. But more so there have been some reports that some of the HVT’s have been targeted by getting pings off of cell towers and sending MLRS fire their direction. Im guessing this is an intelligence tool using mac address or IEME and access to the telecom systems. But think about the use of a stingray could effectively do the same thing. Best way to avoid detection is going to keep any RF from going out period. Im subscribed to Russian and Ukrainian telegram channels and there is a lot that can be learned by doing so. Acoustic monitoring can be used as well to help find drones. The big question as well is can thermal pinpoint a small drone in flight. That is something I have never tested. I have several 640x512 30hz cameras and can test them. I do not have a Mavic Mini anymore but can borrow one to do some testing. Can they see a small drone approaching and how far? If there is enough interest I could put something together in the next week and post it in a new thread. OP: Sorry if this is getting off if topic. But I think avoiding detection and detecting UAS threats are going to be the best way to keep from getting fragged pretty hard. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 9:25:36 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the grenade being dropped has a fuse, then airbursting is just a matter of timing the height of release. I am aware of the abilities and limitations of ordnance. You seem to be under the impression that these "grenades" are UZRGM style hand grenades. The vast majority are not, because that is incredibly difficult and unsafe to work with since the pins have to be pulled by somebody at launch. Most are VOGs or submunition style PD fuzing. When dealing with modified or fabricated ordnance the ability to control safe and arming mechanisms is hard enough, adding in airburst timing sounds great until you are actually trying to make it. There's a reason we haven't really seen that outside of very early exploratory attempts. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 10:26:52 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am aware of the abilities and limitations of ordnance. You seem to be under the impression that these "grenades" are UZRGM style hand grenades. The vast majority are not, because that is incredibly difficult and unsafe to work with since the pins have to be pulled by somebody at launch. Most are VOGs or submunition style PD fuzing. When dealing with modified or fabricated ordnance the ability to control safe and arming mechanisms is hard enough, adding in airburst timing sounds great until you are actually trying to make it. There's a reason we haven't really seen that outside of very early exploratory attempts. I know there is a mix of stuff used and that the fuses on hand grenades aren't really precise enough for accurate airbursts. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 10:37:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know there is a mix of stuff used and that the fuses on hand grenades aren't really precise enough for accurate airbursts. The group 1 dropped grenade issue is a small subset of the overall drone problem, and the airbursting UZRGM is a much smaller subset of the group 1 dropped grenade problem. There is DOTMLPF-P analysis occurring, but armored skirts and pauldrons aren't really part of it. |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 11:01:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The group 1 dropped grenade issue is a small subset of the overall drone problem, and the airbursting UZRGM is a much smaller subset of the group 1 dropped grenade problem. There is DOTMLPF-P analysis occurring, but armored skirts and pauldrons aren't really part of it. But have they considered ballistic shin guards? |
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Posted: 5/5/2023 11:27:17 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe. Depends upon what kind of link you're using. Directional links are much harder to detect, as at that point you're basically looking for any spurious emissions outside of the direction the antenna is pointing, and in an EW-heavy battlefield like UA, let alone one where at least one of the combatants is modern, that can be even harder. Also frequency shifting and hopping, burst transmissions, and more can make any kind of RDF take longer at the very least. But that's why we built tools like the HARM. Well. *One* side is trying to do that, the other has AA that can't even stop regular drones with precisely zero air superiority. (1) You can identify links and repeaters and take them out and thereby the connection. You can pick up directional tx. That doesn't mean some wont get through, they will but their effectiveness will be limited. (2) Drones will be used using swarm technology going forward - this ability has been around since the early norties (RuAF and UA does not have this technology - CHN PLA likely does). (3) The reason its a stalemate is because both sides are ineffective at LSCOs with fully integrated combined arms and are unable to deliver air superiority. In this regard its a near peer conflict. When there is no decisive advantage, stasis ensues and casualty rates rapidly increase. This is lose - lose for both sides. (4) UA could clean the plate if they were given a modern NATO armory (strategic weapons advantage) with sufficient resupply (logistics dominance) and assuming they could train rapidly and integrate effectively (by no means a foregone conclusion) - however, the drip feed approach reflects a number of factors ranging from cynicism, ineptness, fear and stupidity on the part of EU/NATO/various sovereign nations. (5) The consequences of (4) are increased global instability an emboldened CHN and reduced USA. TL;DR Don't worry about drones worry about your own signal and CHN. |
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Posted: 5/6/2023 11:31:35 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If there is enough interest I could put something together in the next week and post it in a new thread. I'd like any thread where SME's such as yourself, discuss how to employ consumer (read Prepared US Citizen) COTS drones while minimizing the "getting killed because of it" factor. Is waypoint flight the only way (assuming functioning/non-spoofed GPS) |
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Posted: 5/6/2023 1:27:40 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like any thread where SME's such as yourself, discuss how to employ consumer (read Prepared US Citizen) COTS drones while minimizing the "getting killed because of it" factor. Is waypoint flight the only way (assuming functioning/non-spoofed GPS) |
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Posted: 5/6/2023 1:59:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Go through youtube. You'll find dozens of video examples of ISIS drone attacks on Iraqis dating back to 2016-17 using DJI hobby-class drones pretty effectively against personnel, Humvees, and tanks. Followed by drone war in Nagorno-Karabakh. The Ukrainians are a quick study.
Hundreds of examples using 30mm grenades or modified rifle grenade. Ukrainians modify 40mm grenades, RPGs, and howitzer rounds. Drones are the newest thing -- and they're not going away.  Attached File   ISIS using drones as effective tool in arsenal |
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Posted: 5/6/2023 3:12:20 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go through youtube. You'll find dozens of video examples of ISIS drone attacks on Iraqis dating back to 2016-17 using DJI hobby-class drones pretty effectively against personnel, Humvees, and tanks. Followed by drone war in Nagorno-Karabakh. The Ukrainians are a quick study. Hundreds of examples using 30mm grenades or modified rifle grenade. Ukrainians modify 40mm grenades, RPGs, and howitzer rounds. Drones are the newest thing -- and they're not going away. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18978/drone_payload_jpg-2807741.JPG https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AvX34XIacaw/maxresdefault.jpg https://video-images.vice.com/articles/63dc0278f6f32d92c8fa41de/lede/1675362937090-bqti03sfkvea1.jpeg?crop=1xw:0.6958xh;0xw,0.2147xh  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18qp-8oP4CcI run the counter-drone program for my field. You tube will give you a decent immersion into potentials, but the actual scope of the problem is immense. The technology around it moves faster than anything we have ever seen in warfare. It's got so many facets that "drones" isn't capable of being a single discussion, and as such the countermeasures aren't either. You have low tech VEO mods on low tech platforms, high tech state sponsored mods on low tech platforms, high tech on high tech, etc...and everything in between. Just assume whatever you are looking at in OSINT is simple rehashes of old news, or simply old news. Both ISIS and Ukraine capitalize more on the IO side of weaponized commercial platforms than utility, the actual utility side is huge but much, much different. Houthi employment is similar to the Azeris, IAMGs pretty much traverse the entire spectrum, however Russian drone usage is an entirely different concept altogether. |
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Posted: 5/6/2023 5:18:54 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: (1) You can identify links and repeaters and take them out and thereby the connection. You can pick up directional tx. That doesn't mean some wont get through, they will but their effectiveness will be limited. Quote HistoryQuoted: (1) You can identify links and repeaters and take them out and thereby the connection. You can pick up directional tx. That doesn't mean some wont get through, they will but their effectiveness will be limited. If you can see the link. That's the point you seem to be missing. Not all antennas are omnidirectional. Directional antennas aren't exactly new science. A properly made beam or yagi will have very little spurious emissions outside of the path of travel. If you move to an optical method such as laser than that becomes effectively zero. With a directional link, you're only picking it up if you're in the path of the link. And in a battlefield littered with receivers and transmitters, there's going to be a *ton* of spurious emissions. Go look at some of the videos of Ukrainian pilots flying. Some start their radars and their RWRs immediately get 4 or more tags. Quoted: (2) Drones will be used using swarm technology going forward - this ability has been around since the early norties (RuAF and UA does not have this technology - CHN PLA likely does). Swarm drones are likely autonomous. They may become loitering munitions and the signal/target is delivered via transmission, but that's quick and can be delivered by a mobile transmitter. Final course corrections and target ID can be made with EOTS. Quoted: (3) The reason its a stalemate is because both sides are ineffective at LSCOs with fully integrated combined arms and are unable to deliver air superiority. In this regard its a near peer conflict. When there is no decisive advantage, stasis ensues and casualty rates rapidly increase. This is lose - lose for both sides. You think it's a stalemate.  Nicolas Cage laughing |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 8:29:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like any thread where SME's such as yourself, discuss how to employ consumer (read Prepared US Citizen) COTS drones while minimizing the "getting killed because of it" factor. Is waypoint flight the only way (assuming functioning/non-spoofed GPS) No, so with a TOF Lidar(Time Of Flight Laser) as an altimeter, and an optical flow sensor, it can hover in GPS denied environments. Any DJI can be flown in Atti mode. Atti or altitude mode uses the Barometer for altitude. This and the compass for heading information. The PID (Proportional, Integral, Derivative) system needs to have some basic information in order to operate. Bad GPS is worse than no GPS on these systems. Or bad compass calibrations. Altitude mode or Altitude hold/Stabilize mode for arducopter pixhawk based controllers and firmware, ignore all but very basic sensor information. This is the get out of jail modes in case of GPS denial or sensor failures causing flight issues. Of course this is manual flight, waypoint would require GPS for automated flight. Jamming the control link would screw that up. But you can use the Telemetry link for command and control as well and use a Joystick on a computer. This is how we program mission critical aircraft. So Video may be 5.8Ghz native C2 link 2.4GHz and grounds station on 915Mhz. See you can mix match C2 links using radio modules in the back of the remote. Makes it tough to guess whats coming an on what frequency. Jam that and I have a backup. Analog video would be best, and you can run multiple transmitters at on different frequencies. Nothing is fail safe, but there are tricks that can be done. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 8:37:14 PM EDT
[#45]
 Attached FileFound this on Telgram. Here are some of my builds.  Attached File Attached File Attached FileMost of these are older builds. This is stuff I did on my own time and not for work. So that is funded by me. Work I have some expensive stuff I work with.  Attached FileCustomized BFD with a 100mp Medium Format Camera. |
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Posted: 5/8/2023 8:20:46 AM EDT
[#46]
In a somewhat related vein, from the Institute For the Study of War (ISW):
"CNN reported that Russian electronic warfare (EW) jamming has limited the effectiveness of Ukrainian HIMARS strikes in recent months. CNN cited five US, UK, and Ukrainian sources as saying that US and Ukrainian forces have had to adapt workarounds to counter "evolving" Russian EW jamming efforts, and that Russian forces have subsequently developed countermeasures to those workarounds.US officials stated that destroying Russian EW systems is a high priority in maintaining the battlefield effectiveness of HIMARS. ISW is unable to confirm this report, but Russian forces retain at least some ability to adapt to battlefield conditions despite significant degradation." |
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Posted: 5/8/2023 12:09:32 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your post: Nice! Thanks. |
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Posted: 5/8/2023 7:21:41 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In a somewhat related vein, from the Institute For the Study of War (ISW): "CNN reported that Russian electronic warfare (EW) jamming has limited the effectiveness of Ukrainian HIMARS strikes in recent months. CNN cited five US, UK, and Ukrainian sources as saying that US and Ukrainian forces have had to adapt workarounds to counter "evolving" Russian EW jamming efforts, and that Russian forces have subsequently developed countermeasures to those workarounds.US officials stated that destroying Russian EW systems is a high priority in maintaining the battlefield effectiveness of HIMARS. ISW is unable to confirm this report, but Russian forces retain at least some ability to adapt to battlefield conditions despite significant degradation." I think that is why we are seeing heavily degraded video from the FPV drones. The high angle of attack is 2 fold, makes it harder to see and keeps the video feed stronger. The drop down to ground level will degrade the signal. This is why most of the time you do not get to see the final 10 feet or so. I have no doubt that Russia has some EW capabilities, but if their logistics on ammo and food are terrible, would imagine many troops are entering the grinder without EW kits. Keep in mind all you really have to do is jam the video link. Do that and they are blind. Analog is key, all you have to do is over power the signal. I |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 4:33:46 PM EDT
[#49]
What to do to avoid drone strike?
1) Detect the drone in advance, and countermeasure it effectively. Easier said than done. 2) Be undetectable by the drone. Drone will bypass undetectable things and move toward richer targets. This might involve all sorts of "personal" signatures which are detectable by the drone/drone user. Visual/electromagnetic/heat signatures come to mind, but not limited to such. Move around frequently so as to avoid pre-targeted drones. 3) Armor-up if in a static position. Both personal armor, and overhead cover sufficient to reduce effects of drones. That only goes so far. 4) Spoofing. Probably the most effective, but hardest thing to do. Figure out how the drones are targeted and provide decent false targets for them. An attacking drone wasted is an expensive drone wasted. Not an Expert, but that's my simple-minded outlook. In the event that a war of movement becomes a possibility, then some different drone measures/countermeasures will come into play. I have no idea how the newly introduced drones will work out. Likely an ever-escalating Electonic Countermeasures effort will prove most useful, but I don't exclude some kinetic and electronically guided countermeasures. |
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Posted: 5/13/2023 2:16:01 AM EDT
[#50]
As Daemon and others have pointed out, countering drones is not a one shoe fits all solution. There is too many variables and rapid advancement in drone technology to make it a simple solution to counter. I've been in the UAS world for 15 years on everything from COTS to group 1-5 and can tell you that it is a constant ever-changing problem.
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