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Posted: 12/15/2016 8:54:51 PM EDT
| So....I know where there is an unregistered Thompson in a police evidence room. Been locked up since a bank robbery in 1934. You know where I'm going with this. Is there any means to get the thing registered if the CLEO decided to auction it off? |
| I have a cousin in a sheriff's office that has an unregistered Thompson. They worked with their local ATF agent to do a check if it had been registered and no luck. Hope yours works out differently. For LE ATF will register it so it is not contraband, but if it won't be transferable if it hadn't been previously registered. |
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I have a cousin in a sheriff's office that has an unregistered Thompson. They worked with their local ATF agent to do a check if it had been registered and no luck. Hope yours works out differently. For LE ATF will register it so it is not contraband, but if it won't be transferable if it hadn't been previously registered. This makes no sense. Does the DEA pray over heroin in the evidence rooms of police departments so it's not contraband? |
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Nope, they just allow them to possess the heroin.
ATF Form 10 |
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If you have access to it, get the S/N, & photos if you can, & post them up on Machinegunboards.com, in the Thompson section.
or post it here, & I'll do it. They try to keep track of all of the Colt guns. They've also been successful getting some back in circulation.(the folks on the site) You most likely won't be able to get FOIA info, as you need to be the registered owner to get it, it's tax info, no matter how redacted. |
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If you have access to it, get the S/N, & photos if you can, & post them up on Machinegunboards.com, in the Thompson section. or post it here, & I'll do it. They try to keep track of all of the Colt guns. They've also been successful getting some back in circulation.(the folks on the site) You most likely won't be able to get FOIA info, as you need to be the registered owner to get it, it's tax info, no matter how redacted. yes, do this. Plenty of "unregistered" guns turn out to be registered. I personally know of two Thompsons that were in police inventory, the chief of police wrote to ATF and said that he wanted to sell the guns to buy updated equipment, but he couldn't because he did not have the registration paperwork for the guns. The ATF responded that the guns were in the NFA registry and the chief sold the guns to a class 3 dealer. |
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I know exactly how you feel. In the safe at the PD I work for, we have an M2 Carbine that had been presented to the PD by a local sporting goods dealer in the '50's, I think. The gun had been buffed and reblued and had a brass plate added to the stock with the sporting goods dealer's name and "To The XXXXX Police Department" but no date. I tried getting info about the Carbine from the ATF a few years ago, thinking we could sell it and buy some new equipment if it was in the Registry. As far as anyone can tell, it is not, and never has been, in the Registry, so that is that.
I even thought about writing to the Tech Branch to see if we could remove and destroy the M2 parts and sell the gun as an M1. However, there is a problem with that, too. Remember how I said they had buffed the gun and reblued it? Well, when they buffed it, someone got overly enthusiastic on the rear of the receiver. One number of the serial number's numbers is pretty much undecipherable and another is very faint. Restamping serial numbers is not acceptable, so if we ever get rid of it, it will have to be destroyed, Sad, since it is in very good condition and shoots very well (yes, I took it to the range a few times, with the Chief's permission). If I could figure out a way around the serial number issue, I would offer to buy it from the PD myself. I love Carbines and, since this one has been modified, there is no collector' value and it would make a dandy, handy trunk gun or fun gun. Bub75 |
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bub75 wrote:
I even thought about writing to the Tech Branch to see if we could remove and destroy the M2 parts and sell the gun as an M1. However, there is a problem with that, too. Remember how I said they had buffed the gun and reblued it? Well, when they buffed it, someone got overly enthusiastic on the rear of the receiver. One number of the serial number's numbers is pretty much undecipherable and another is very faint. Restamping serial numbers is not acceptable, so if we ever get rid of it, it will have to be destroyed, Sad, since it is in very good condition and shoots very well (yes, I took it to the range a few times, with the Chief's permission). If I could figure out a way around the serial number issue, I would offer to buy it from the PD myself. I love Carbines and, since this one has been modified, there is no collector' value and it would make a dandy, handy trunk gun or fun gun. If it's marked "M2," that would preclude what you're thinking about, regardless of the serial number issue. Being marked "M2" means that at one time it was a machine gun, and, according to the ATF, "once a machine gun always a machine gun." In the 1950's, the Army sold a lot of surplus carbines to civilians through the DCM. They didn't care about the markings, as long as the guns didn't have the full-auto parts. So, a fair number of carbines marked "M2" got into civilian hands. Unless they were registered during the 1968 amnesty, they are now contraband. I've seen one or two such "M2" marked carbines on tables at gun shows, being sold by old geezers who didn't know any better. (They think that it's an ordinary M1 carbine since it was sold to them by the government.) If you see something like that, RUN. Don't even touch it. |
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bub75 wrote: If it's marked "M2," that would preclude what you're thinking about, regardless of the serial number issue. Being marked "M2" means that at one time it was a machine gun, and, according to the ATF, "once a machine gun always a machine gun." In the 1950's, the Army sold a lot of surplus carbines to civilians through the DCM. They didn't care about the markings, as long as the guns didn't have the full-auto parts. So, a fair number of carbines marked "M2" got into civilian hands. Unless they were registered during the 1968 amnesty, they are now contraband. I've seen one or two such "M2" marked carbines on tables at gun shows, being sold by old geezers who didn't know any better. (They think that it's an ordinary M1 carbine since it was sold to them by the government.) If you see something like that, RUN. Don't even touch it. I'd have to look again to make sure but I'm almost positive it is marked M1, not M2. It's been a while since I even looked at it because I get depressed every time I do. That's why I was considering seeing if it was legal to remove the M2 parts and sell as an M1. However, that was another issue I didn't want to bring up. I already know the ATF would say "Once an MG, always an MG", and wouldn't move beyond that, so I never asked. Bub75 |
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The conversion parts are the MG, so if they're removed, and the receiver isn't marked M2, then it isn't a MG. Kitbuilder, I don't want to come across as an ass, but do you have a cite for that? I'm honestly curious. If anyone has a cite from the ATF about this issue, I'd strip out and torch cut the FA parts and see about buying it myself in a heartbeat. Thanks. Bub75 |
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Look at chapter 2 in the NFA Handbook on page 12 (8 in the PDF). It describes a “combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun” as conversion kits, or conversion sears. These are considered to be the machineguns which make a Title I host select-fire when installed. Other common examples are the AR-15 DIAS, Lightning Link, and HK sear or registered trigger box. These are all registered as machineguns, and can be moved from host to host. The Title I host firearms are not registered as NFA firearms, just these conversion devices.
You don't have to destroy all the conversion parts, just separate them from the Title I firearm. Leave them at the PD. ATF recognizes that some surplus M2 parts were commonly used to build semiautomatic carbines, which is why they specifically mention the M2 sear, operating slide, trigger housing and stock as being appropriate for use in semiautomatic M1 carbines. If you possess the entire M2 conversion kit, then you possess a machinegun, whether there's a carbine present or not. Receivers marked M2 fall under the "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" rule (because the receiver was registered as the MG). Conversion devices are the exception to that rule. |
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Bub75 wrote:
Kitbuilder, I don't want to come across as an ass, but do you have a cite for that? I'm honestly curious. If anyone has a cite from the ATF about this issue, I'd strip out and torch cut the FA parts and see about buying it myself in a heartbeat. Thanks. Here's what the ATF has to say about this, officially: Special Note
Carbine receivers marked M-2 are machine guns, even though they may only be capable of semiautomatic fire. M-1 Carbines altered by substitution of M-2 kits to permit automatic fire are also machine guns. Possession of an unregistered M-2 conversion kit, which consists of the following seven parts, constitutes possession of an unregistered NFA firearm; regardless of whether or not assembled; Selector Selector spring Selector lever assembly Hammer Disconnector Disconnector spring Disconnector plunger https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guide-identification-firearms-section-1#M-2Carbine Thus, it appears that an "M-2 conversion kit" is like a drop-in auto sear for an AR-15. There are unregistered carbine conversion kits (felonies) and there are registered conversion kits (valuable), just as there are unregistered and registered DIAS, with the same legal consequences. The host carbine (provided it's marked "M-1" and not "M-2") is like a host semi AR-15, and would be a machine gun (or not) depending on the parts that are installed. There are some obvious caveats. A carbine conversion kit consists of all the listed parts, versus one part (really, an assembly) for the AR DIAS. A question then arises as to which of the seven parts must be marked and serialized for a registered kit. And what if someone possesses some, but not all, of the parts in question? The ATF rule that "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" could have tricky application here. Suppose an unregistered conversion kit was once installed in an M-1 carbine, and was later removed. Does that mean that the gun can never revert to non-machine gun status? (And who's to know, after the parts are removed?) If the ATF takes the position that every M-1 carbine that ever had full-automatic parts installed remains a machine gun for all time, then logically it must say that every AR host of a DIAS remains a machine gun for all time. If that were the case, then every time a DIAS was removed from an AR, it would amount to the creation of a new (unregistered) machine gun, something that's precluded by the 1986 Hughes Amendment. I don't think the ATF wants to open that can of worms. |
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I'd have to look again to make sure but I'm almost positive it is marked M1, not M2. It's been a while since I even looked at it because I get depressed every time I do. That's why I was considering seeing if it was legal to remove the M2 parts and sell as an M1. However, that was another issue I didn't want to bring up. I already know the ATF would say "Once an MG, always an MG", and wouldn't move beyond that, so I never asked. Bub75 The intent of the NFA laws is to regulate machine gun ownership. How would those laws apply to an M1 Carbine that was never registered as a machine gun and has no full auto parts installed? |
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cyborg543 wrote:
The intent of the NFA laws is to regulate machine gun ownership.
How would those laws apply to an M1 Carbine that was never registered as a machine gun and has no full auto parts installed? Just to play Devil's Advocate, we know that this M1 carbine had an M2 parts kit installed, while in the possession of a police department (meaning that there are witnesses that would have to be truthful about this). Therefore it's on record as having been fully automatic at one time. Under the ATF's "once a machine gun always a machine gun" doctrine, this status cannot be undone merely by removing the FA parts. Unless it was registered by the police department (presumably using an ATF Form 10), it's now contraband. If it was registered using a Form 10, it's not transferable. That's the worst case that can be made. I personally think that it would be treated like an AR-15 host that had a DIAS installed. Remove the DIAS, and it reverts back to a Title I weapon. Just to be on the safe side, the police department could ask for an advisory opinion by the ATF Technical Branch. It's not as though M1 carbines are great rarities that would be lost to the collecting community in case of an adverse decision by the ATF. |
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Under the ATF's "once a machine gun always a machine gun" doctrine, this status cannot be undone merely by removing the FA parts. Unless it was registered by the police department (presumably using an ATF Form 10), it's now contraband. If it was registered using a Form 10, it's not transferable. That's the worst case that can be made. I personally think that it would be treated like an AR-15 host that had a DIAS installed. Remove the DIAS, and it reverts back to a Title I weapon. If the PD were to register the conversion kit as a machinegun on Form 10, they'd be putting their info on one of the M2 conversion parts (traditionally the disconnector lever) and serializing it. None of the info from the receiver would be needed, because it isn't the machinegun. |
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Very interesting info, guys. Obviously, I'm not real familiar with full auto stuff and the licensing, which is why I was asking. I can see, and it makes perfect sense, that the gun (provided it is marked M1 and not M2) would be legal to own without the M2 parts, same as an AR and a DIAS. However, just because it makes perfect sense to us, doesn't mean that it makes perfect sense to the ATF. I guess I'll have to do some looking about M1 vs M2 according to the ATF.
Even if it turns out that the gun would be perfectly legal as an M1, the M2 parts would be destroyed. They aren't stamped and registered, I can tell you that from when I stripped the gun to clean it after shooting it. No engraving, no serial numbers, no nothing. Since it wasn't registered, and it doesn't seem that there will ever be another amnesty, I'll cut them up if I do this. Again, thanks, guys. I appreciate the info and will do some more research. Sorry for the thread drift, OP. Bub75 |
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Very interesting info, guys. Obviously, I'm not real familiar with full auto stuff and the licensing, which is why I was asking. I can see, and it makes perfect sense, that the gun (provided it is marked M1 and not M2) would be legal to own without the M2 parts, same as an AR and a DIAS. However, just because it makes perfect sense to us, doesn't mean that it makes perfect sense to the ATF. I guess I'll have to do some looking about M1 vs M2 according to the ATF. Even if it turns out that the gun would be perfectly legal as an M1, the M2 parts would be destroyed. They aren't stamped and registered, I can tell you that from when I stripped the gun to clean it after shooting it. No engraving, no serial numbers, no nothing. Since it wasn't registered, and it doesn't seem that there will ever be another amnesty, I'll cut them up if I do this. Again, thanks, guys. I appreciate the info and will do some more research. Sorry for the thread drift, OP. Bub75 Whether it's an M1 or M2, why not have the chief write a letter to ATF asking for a weapon history report on the gun? It will show how the gun was registered. Or not registered. If it's an M1 and not registered as an MG, then you could take out the full auto parts and just keep it as a regular title 1 firearm. If it's an M2 and not registered as an MG, then it could be registered by the PD for their own use. I know that the ATF says "Once a MG, always an MG" but surely that means guns that were once registered or manufactured as an MG. Suppose someone came to your house and stuck some MG conversion parts into your AR15, while you sleeping. Like the Magical MG Fairy. Does that mean that in the morning you would have to turn your AR15 into the ATF? Because it caught MG Herpes from the conversion parts and is infected with MG germs? Or could you just remove the MG parts and dispose of them properly? |
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Here's a thought, so you ran the number on the receiver, have you tried running any numbers that might be on the M2 parts since as previously mentioned, that is where that info was usually engraved? I haven't ran any of the numbers. I'll ask for them next weekend when I have the chance. At a minimum it is a shame to be locked up in a closet...there are plenty of museums that could be a much better place for it. |
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