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Posted: 4/28/2014 6:26:55 PM EDT
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Any of you guys ever had a form sent back for correction because the name "didn't match exactly" I've had 2 E-Form SBRs come back approved by using "Roberts NFA Trust" but yesterday I get 2 corrections in the mail for using that on my paper forms. WTF??? They had highlighted the Roberts NFA Trust portion in the transferee box. I can only assume they want me to change it to "Roberts National Firearms Act, Revocable Living Trust" will it do any good to call them or do I need to redo my forms and send back? I called and left a message today and surprise, surprise no call back!!
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Quoted:
Any of you guys ever had a form sent back for correction because the name "didn't match exactly" I've had 2 E-Form SBRs come back approved by using "Roberts NFA Trust" but yesterday I get 2 corrections in the mail for using that on my paper forms. WTF??? They had highlighted the Roberts NFA Trust portion in the transferee box. I can only assume they want me to change it to "Roberts National Firearms Act, Revocable Living Trust" will it do any good to call them or do I need to redo my forms and send back? I called and left a message today and surprise, surprise no call back!! It's supposed to match the trust document exactly. You can't abbreviate Revocable Living Trust to RLT, or anything else. EForms will allow you to abbreviate because there's a max number of characters (I think it was 56). However, that doesn't change what goes on the paper forms, or what you should've had engraved. The easier route may be to have an amendment to your trust drafted to change the name. |
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The note from the EForms bulletin:
4. Choosing a short name for your trust isn’t just useful for engraving purposes. It also factors into the eForm as well, it pays to not name your trust in a manner that Fiona Apple named one of her albums:
If the trust or corporate name for an eForm 1, 4 or 5 exceeds 50 characters, you will not be able to submit the application. The trust or corporate names are the entries made in the Licensee/Permittee Name on eForm 1 or as the transferee Business Name on eForms 4 or 5. For example, a trust entitled ‘THE JOHN JAMES DOE AND MARY ANN DOE REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST’ will prevent the submission of the application due to the length of the name. Typically, the form will close when you submit and bring you back to the carousel. You may receive an error message or a message that the application has submitted but it remains in the draft folder. To preclude this error, an acceptable way to decrease the number of characters is to replace ‘REVOCABLE LIVING’ with ‘RL’ as an acceptable abbreviation for the purposes of the application. Thus, the above cited trust would be shown as ‘THE JOHN JAMES DOE AND MARY ANN DOE RL TRUST’ as the applicant maker or transferee. Please spell out as much of the trust or LLC name as possible within the 50 character limitation. |
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Actually, the trust is a RLT, and that is not necessarily part of its name, even if ATF seems to think so. Finsta Family NFA is the name of my trust (a legal entity and a person), and it is a RLT, even though ATF thinks that RLT is part of the legal entity's name, it isn't. If it were, it'd be Finsta Family NFA RLT RLT.
I don't see how they have the lawful authority to prohibit common abbreviations for a Maker (they allow them for Manufacturers) anyways, but whatever. Make them happy and then mark the gun with the Maker's information. |
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Quoted: Actually, the trust is a RLT, and that is not necessarily part of its name, even if ATF seems to think so. Finsta Family NFA is the name of my trust (a legal entity and a person), and it is a RLT, even though ATF thinks that RLT is part of the legal entity's name, it isn't. If it were, it'd be Finsta Family NFA RLT RLT. I don't see how they have the lawful authority to prohibit common abbreviations for a Maker (they allow them for Manufacturers) anyways, but whatever. Make them happy and then mark the gun with the Maker's information. |
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Quoted:
My trust says " This trust shall be known as the Roberts N.F.A. Trust (Roberts National Firearms Act, Revocable Living Trust)" It would just be nice if I could get an answer from the NFA branch as to what exactly I need to change it to.... Have you been able to call and speak to the examiner? Or a supervisor? I'd also send an email to both [email protected] and the program manager Gary, at [email protected]. Include scans of the trust showing the name. The part in parentheses shouldn't count IMO. Heck, I just had a paper form approved that had the date in quotes with the name, and I didn't include it on the form. (Trust says: This Trust shall be know as the "Lastname Living Trust, dated the 26th day of July, 2013)...I fully expected the bold and quotes to be my downfall, to the point I had an Amendment drafted to clarify the name. |
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Used a lawyer. I don't see what the big deal is! they have already approved forms one way and now they want it changed. I did finally speak with an examiner and he said to use the part in parentheses as opposed to what was used originally on these forms. The problem there is you're supposed to have the name on the application engraved, and you probably don't want all that wording on your lowers. Have that lawyer draft you a one page Amendment to clarify/change the trust name. That's what I've done, and many others here have done. |
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It actually depends how it is written in your trust. If your verbiage states that "this trust hereby named XYZ revocable living trust" then that is exactly what needs to be on the form and engraved on the lower (unless eform letter count prohibits). If it states "this revocable living trust hereby named XYZ Trust" then the RLT wouldn't be needed. There really is no uniformed answer for anything that involves the verbiage of an individual's trust since no one knows how said individual's trust is written. Quoted:
Quoted:
Actually, the trust is a RLT, and that is not necessarily part of its name, even if ATF seems to think so. Finsta Family NFA is the name of my trust (a legal entity and a person), and it is a RLT, even though ATF thinks that RLT is part of the legal entity's name, it isn't. If it were, it'd be Finsta Family NFA RLT RLT. I don't see how they have the lawful authority to prohibit common abbreviations for a Maker (they allow them for Manufacturers) anyways, but whatever. Make them happy and then mark the gun with the Maker's information. It actually depends how it is written in your trust. If your verbiage states that "this trust hereby named XYZ revocable living trust" then that is exactly what needs to be on the form and engraved on the lower (unless eform letter count prohibits). If it states "this revocable living trust hereby named XYZ Trust" then the RLT wouldn't be needed. There really is no uniformed answer for anything that involves the verbiage of an individual's trust since no one knows how said individual's trust is written. I would say that any trust named "XYZ RLT" is due to a typographical error or grammatical misunderstanding and not intention. That's like registering your 2006 Honda Civic 2dr Auto Auto with the DOT. A more correct approach is to name it "XYZ, a RLT." Articles matter. That said, find me a probate judge that is going to buy into any of ATF's bullshit on this. I agree on the amendment if the ATF are going to be dicks about it. |
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I agree on the amendment if the ATF are going to be dicks about it. ...and just to add something from my experience, make sure you trust doesn't have any wording that prohibits you from changing the name. When I asked my lawyer about changing mine from "Lastname Living Trust, dated this 26th day of July, 2013" to simply "Lastname Living Trust", he responded with: That presents quite the conundrum, as the trust specifically states that the name of the trust can not be changed. It's set up this way to prevent an unwitting client, trustee, or successor trustee from later changing the name of the trust (such as in a case like the one you find yourself in where it seems like a convenient idea) and end up causing an illegal transfer or illegal possession of the NFA items. As your trust does not yet hold any NFA items, that concern does not apply. However, the fact remains that the trust name can not be changed. However, you're not really asking for the name to be changed. You're clarifying that the name of the trust is just the "Lastname Living Trust" part and that the date was never intended as part of the name, but as additional identifying information to distinguish it from other trusts that may exist under the same name as yours. So what I'm sending you may actually fall more into the category of a "restatement of trust" as opposed to an amendment, but it's going to be titled an amendment because I fear the restatement would just confuse the good ole boys at ATF. Also, you may want to consider waiting to see if they send you a denial letter before sending this to them. As you said, there is a good chance your paperwork will go through as is. And there is also a chance that sending in this change could gum up the works even more, in light of the provision that the name can't be changed--I wouldn't be surprised if the fine distinction between a name change and a clarification might be lost on the ATF examiner. However, it's up to you in the end. Just wanted to mention that in case anybody was on the DIY route. While it would've seemed like a single sentence stating what the new name was is all I needed, I would've violated my trust by doing it that way. There was a full page of legalese in the Amendment he wrote for me, but the couple of sentences pertinent to this discussion said: EFFECT OF AMENDMENT
Trust Agreement Shall Remain in Full Force and Effect. The above amendments are intended to clarify the Settlor's original intention that the name of the Trust is the "Lastname Living Trust". Due to a scrivener's error, the original Trust Agreement included inadvertent formatting that suggested that the trust name was the "Lastname Living Trust, dated the 26th day of July, 2013". However, the Settlor's intention in including the date of the agreement was only by way of further identification of the trust to distinguish between it and other possible trusts of the same name.[/span] |
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You people choose some asinine names for your trusts. Mine is "Lastname Trust". That's it. 2 words and not even "the" is used in my trust title. If I fully understood what I was doing beforehand, And the true implications the trust name would have, I'd have done the same. I was trying to get on the "before 41P" bandwagon. Luckily mines just the Lastname Living Trust...17 total letters. |
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