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Posted: 9/11/2006 4:55:05 PM EDT
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I have 2 suppressors in .308/9mm, Two in 5.56, one in .22LR. I can suppress/shoot .308, 9mm, 5.56, .22-250, 22LR in either threaded bolt guns or on the SBR and M16 I own a 22 pistol, a 22LR upper for the M16 I have a 11.5" Colt upper for making noise. A 20" 'beater upper' for the Beta mag dumps. I have a 9mm upper as well that I use for hog hunting on the '16. I have a PVS7B and an IR laser for night hunting. I am looking to buy something else for fun/plinking? If the Lakeside LM7 is not quite up to speed, then I'll pass until they get the bugs worked out. What's out there for the guy that has a little of everything and wants something different to collect/shoot? I sold my beltfed 1919 since it was just a bitch to load the gun, ammo, tripod everytime I wanted to go make noise. And..honestly, the M16 was more thrusts per squeeze so the 1919 was no longer needed for that kind of shooting. I have about 3k-4k in cash/available funds. I can continue to save about 1000-1500 per month if I need to wait a month or two to make a purchase. What would you buy? TRG |
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I got an LM7 a couple of weeks ago and am slowly getting it up to speed. Unlike the Ciener conversion, there is a well established company behind this (Lakeside/Tipman) and a discussion board for it. 22LR is difficult to get running in F/A and even more difficult with a belt-fed. But, I'm 100% sure that in the short future they will be running very well. It's a matter of getting the right spring combination and the sear timed for your particulat M16 - they're all a little different when it comes to fire-control .... I'm having a great time working on mine - of course, I knew it was going to be a challange when I got it. The rest of my MG's run like a top - this is my project gun. Let me tell you when they do run, it's more fun than any upper that I've had on my M16 - really zips through the belt. Even more fun than my standard/mini UZI in 45ACP/9MM. Cheap and alot of fun - especially suppressed. I'd locate one now - any updates/modifications are free. |
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Well, gee .... you can never have too much ammo or too many MGs. Both only get more expensive and more difficult to find. IMHO MGs are still the best investment, particularly right now -- if prices pick up around Thanksgiving/Christmas, the way they always have in the past, you could be in the great position of making money before your F4 is even approved. The low end of the market's still pretty solid, too: Think M11/9, M10/45, Uzi. I still treasure my Reising, and believe they are still undervalued, if you want to try out C&R. You can't lose money on any of these. Lately, I've been having the most fun with my suppressed Beretta 92 and my 20-ga SBS "pistola" -- they are a hoot to shoot, and relatively inexpensive to buy and run. They come along on every range/shoot trip, along with a selection of suppressed .22s and the Vector Uzi. None ever seem to require tinkering ... they just run and run. If you really like noise and have not yet detached your retinas, there's always a Serbu BFG50. 
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I am not realy a fan ofthe .50. Too much back pressure on my sinus cavities. I have a friend that is looking to sell a couple of Macs, but...? After owning the '16 it is tough to want to purchase a Mac. they just seem clunky and cheaply made. Uzi? Maybe but, having shot a few, I have found that I don't like the sights on them. LM7 is what I thought I wanted, but... to have to tinker with an 1800.00 upper? Something about that just keeps me under-enthusiatic about it. TRG |
I thought that too and was very apprehensive about getting mine - but the little sucker sort of grows on you ... getting it running has become sort of an obsession .....  
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Same here. If you can't think of anything, then ammo is the ticket. The cost is going up. Since you don't like M10/11 family and Uzi....FNC (you know the one that Pacino used  )...Nah, maybe not, it's not that versatile. Maybe another M16?Or maybe it's time to spend a little of that money for reloading since price of ammo is heading north every day. |
TxL is my current bitch for reloading. To be honest, I don't even shoot the M16 that often. the versatility of it makes me hesitant to buy anything else but I am several benjamins sort of another receiver. TRG |
What happen if you break up with her? Always have Plan B. I think you should save for MP5.  |
MP5? I have a 5.5" barrel on my '16 and a 9mm suppressor. It is my Poor Man's Mp5. I have killd several hogs with it already. TRG |
HRT4me just got one of those. Why buy when I can borrow? TRG |
OK...So what do you want?  |
There ya go. Mojo: I dunno. Got money buring a hole in my pocket for NFA? The problem is, when I purchased the M16, I asked this forum for a suggestion on what to buy. I fully expected the M16 to be the only NFA weapon I could ever afford. Now...? I could probably affordf whatever I want, as long as I continue to save each money. The problem is, the M16 is versatile that there is little reason to buy anything other than a different upper and more ammor for it. I looked on subguns for listed MGs. The 15-25k beltfeds are cool. And I think I might just continue to save until I can purchase one of them. The price seems stable so there is not a large reason to buy now instead of saving for a year. TRG |
I'm going to be the odd man out. So far everyone has suggested relatively common guns; they're all good, don't get me wrong! But why not do something unique? Here's what I found and am rebuilding (please excuse the very general captioning; I have non-gun friends who need things pretty basic): www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?folder_id=1722947 (Some of the pics are a little outdated; I now have an original cone flash hider and the barrel is unplugged.) It's a Japanese Type 99 LMG. I bought it as a papered DEWAT, had it REWATTED, and am now chasing down two more parts to make it totally live. I'm not so much recommending the Jap 99, any Jap gun, or any gun in specific. I am recommending that you seek out something unique and fun. Why have the same guns every NFA owner has at the range? If you want an AOW shotgun, find one of the rare double barrel variants. If you want a DD... Actually, not so many folks have DD's at all. You might have some fun here, even with a Streetsweeper/Striker/USAS. But if you really want to have some fun, find a 60mm/81mm/whatever mortar and learn to load for it. If you want a SBS/SBR, seek out some weird C&R version. Machinegun? You've already got a '16, everyone has a Mac/Uzi, and German guns are still pretty common. How about a Japanese gun? Italian? Maybe even a (dare I say it) Frenchie? If you love to tinker and play with things, how about a ChauChat? Breda? Japanese WW2 era guns? I recognize that spare parts and mags are a concern (and do I ever with my Type 99..!); if you're not feeling so adventurous, how about a Sweedish K? FAL? Valmet? I don't know about your budget, but if it's larger (or you're a patient saver  ), how about a Bren? ZB-26? Schnellfeuer? Vickers?I advise you to not follow the crowds. It's a lot more fun, creates interest when you're out shooting or at a show, and becomes financially rewarding when the rest of the world discovers what you already know and drives up the prices. FWIW, Mike |
That's good advice. I enjoyed my SA 1919 for the 'cool factor'. Most kids did not own one. As for the obscure or hard tro keep working guns? I'll pass. Heck, I don't even want to tinker with the LM7. I like the idea of something unique that I can save for. I'll check some of the these you listed and see what catches my eye. TRG PS. We ALL still hate you for the typ3-99 find. you bastard!
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I've been eyeing Jap-99's for a while. They are more common than you think - I saw two at the gunshow I was at this past weekend. They go for about $9-10K. Ammo is hard to get (7.7 Jap). How about something like a Beretta BM-59 - Italian M1-Garand conversion to select-fire, mag-fed 308 - they're going for about $9K or so - very controllable in F/A for a 308 due to tri-compensator - barrel is 18" and every thing from bayo-lug out is compensator. Reese Enterprises has parts - mags are expensive at about $85 - M14 mags don't work. Mine's very reliable and really likes Wolfe ammo. Here's mine set up as a scout comes standard with: - bipod - winter-trigger - gernade launcher - bayo-lug I added the scope-rail and scope. Available also with para and Nigerian stocks. 
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What's the going price fora sear pack? That sounds like something that I should look in to. Versatility. TRG |
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M-11 with a Lage upper and folding stock. It's a sweat little, cheap toy (F/A standards). And I don't think you could wear it out. I'm thinking about keeping it and selling the UZI. Also, LAGE is working on a 22cal conversion for the M-11, I'm on that waiting list now. If you get a chance check out "www.max-11.com" Out of the 4 FAs I have, I like it best next to the m16 Jeff |
If you're thinking about an HK, the only thing I would consider is one of the recently advertised DLO registered HK trigger frames I spoke with Doug at DLO a little over a week ago. These are factory HK machinegun fire control frames that had the front milled to allow them to fit on any semiauto HK receiver. They accept ALL factory HK parts. At $12.5K, this is a LOT of loot but you will have the the flexibility of a sear, with the ability to use all factory parts should something wear out. There are also no timing issues because it uses a factory MG sear. The fire control frame is the serialized registered part. You will NEVER wear one of these out. The only downside is that you can't use a Navy/burst lower. You can use plastic SEF or 0-1-20 lowers. With one of these you can have 308 battle rifle, 308 beltfed, 5.56 carbine, 5.56 beltfed (IF Michael's Machines ever finishes their 23 project), 9mm (fullsize and K), 40s&w, 357 Sig AND you won't have any worries about timing, ever wearing out, or damaging the registered fire control frame. With regards to financing the DLO fire control frame, take advantage of one of the still available zero percent interest credit cards; with your $4,000 current savings and ability to save $1500 per month you could have it paid off before the interest rate kicks up. |
I'm looking at one that's already built as an HK51, and asking for it is around $15.5K. I can build a G3 clone for reasonable money, and if I ever get the itch I can set it up on an HK94 or clone to make an "MP5". I hadn't heard about the registered frame approach until I read Josh's post above. I'll be around a bunch of guru's and SOT's this weekend so I should know a little more by Monday.
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Gus, give Doug at DLO a call. He is an absolute expert in the NFA world. He's the one who made a pile of 1919 Browning sideplates, the only MAG58 sideplates, a pile of Sterling and STen tubes, not to mention a number of other conversions. I spent about 45 minutes on the phone with him today and he said prior to releasing these frames, he had previously only sold a handful back (from what I gathered it was in the late 70's and early 80's). These are serialized HK frames that accept all factory parts and fit on any semiauto HK-pattern receiver; what's not to like? Call Doug and I bet you'll be buying one instead of a sear .
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The 1919 doesn't show up at a lot of shoots; while they're out there, most owners of the C&R guns don't let them outside the confines of a climate controlled safe. Maybe a solid and well build sideplate gun or a good REWAT might be up your alley? If you want to avoid obscure calibers and tinkering, you'll want to toss the Chauchat and all Japanese guns (unless you buy a 7.62x39 caliber conversion kit for a Jap 96/99 ONLY) from consideration. The Breda and ZB-26 are questionable, as parts kits are drying up quickly but are around right now. Italian guns, the Valmet, the Vickers, and the Schnellfeuer may or may not give you fits with parts. The Swedish K, FAL, 1919, and Bren are great for reliability, availability of mags, and availability of spare parts. You might also consider a Grease Gun, a Thompson (1921/28 or M1), the BAR... I'll second DFRCOLT's BM-59 recommendation; I cannot speak to spare parts but they seem to be an out-of-the-box reliable gun. HK sear packs, trigger packs, etc., are also fun when you consider your ability to go modular. GUS and JOSHNC are very right. If you really want the mother of all HK mg's, see if you can have a HK-51B cooked up. See www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsgarchive.cgi?noframes;read=418579 for a nifty pic-- you can't tell me that l'il flamethrower is anything but fun! Mike PS. I learned to thrive on being hated. Once it's together, perhaps I'll have to take a run into TX and you can give her a spin...
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Actually, they're becoming 'more common' as time goes on. The generation that captured these guns is quickly passing on, and they're coming out of closets, attics, etc., in droves. A common refrain in my search for a bolt and spring is "You shoulda called me last year when I couldn't give 'em away..!" LMO, Andrewski, Black River, Lomont... Each of those guys reported that the number of Japanese MG's being brought to them for REWATTING has increased exponentially within the last year or two. The MG world wasn't into them because parts weren't exactly common, they fired odd calibers, mag prices were through the roof ($1,000+ each), and the quality was perceived as low. Other than parts still being rare, they've "improved". 1. Replacement aftermarket mags are being made; 2. A drop-in 7.62x39 caliber conversion kit is being produced for the 96 and the 99 (using modified AK mags), and an additional .308 conversion kit is available for the 99 (using modified M14 mags); 3. Folks are coming to realize that while Japanese steelwasn't so great, that these guns are made well and that it's a LMG that is (was) available inexpensively; 4. Some replacement parts are finally being fabricated (but still not a %$#@! bolt!); 5. A mount is being made so as to allow them to be fired from a MG-42 tripod. All in all, I still think they're a sleeper with a lot of possibilities-- and still a relatively uncommon to rare gun. FYI, check out Graf's for inexpensive 7.7x58 (Jap) brass. Take care, Mike |
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XMG MG34 conversion - I hear they work pretty well. www.brpguns.com/xmg.htm |
Takes some major mods to the lower to make that work, right? TRG |
Dave, I thought you usta own one of those? |
Did, but never really used it - wanted something else and it had to go. Now, I sure the hell wish I would have kept it - had a dedicated RR for it with a 4-position selector - this is one of the time's that having the burst and full-auto options would have been real cool. Rats!!!!! Of course, selling the XMG, RR, spare uppers (including a Gemtech Talon), and Accuracy Speaks 22LR conversion got me the following at no cost - in fact I had some bucks left over: - NIB mini Vector UZI - NIB standard Vector UZI - new/no box Beretta BM-59 That was back when the vectors were $4K/$5K and the BM-59 was about $5.5K. |
Price is 4750.00 for the complete XMG? Should I be looking at the package deal? Or just buy the upper and some belts? I had looked at the XMG a while back and was discouraged from getting it based on the advice here about attaching the RR lower to the XMG upper. But... It would be in my price range, and satisfy the fun factor required. TRG |
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TRG, the problem with the XMG is that it does not and cannot use a standard receiver extension (buffer tube). That means that every time you want to run the XMG, you need to swap out the tube, which (a) is a PITA, (b) increases the risk of losing the two small springs it retains, and (c) most important, it increases the wear-and-tear on the receiver's threads, one of the weak spots of the AR design. Unless you have a GI SS lower receiver, the XMG is best for a dedicated setup. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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I have a Sendra converted lower. Buffer tube? Yup, that rings a bell. Still an interesting idea though. And... it is in the price range. LM7 vs. XMG. LM7 = pin on and tinker? XMG = disassemble and reassemble... Tough call. TRG |
LM7 = change recoil-buffer, pin on, and tinker ...... The LM7 is being fine-tuned by a couple of other SOT/machinists besides Lakeside and will probably be near 100% shortly - as 100% as you can get with bulk 22LR. Biggest problem now is bolt-bounce - real problem with a high ROF (800RPM) and a very light bolt in a blow-back system - there is no "lock up" as with the standard M16 upper - more or less like a VERY light 9MM. For example, the bolt in the LM7 is 107 grams while the bolt in the full-auto 10/22 is 207 grams - light weight stuff. The three biggest improvements lately are: - anti-bounce buffer - lighter hammer-spring (works also with standard/other M16 converisons) - lighter firing-pin spring |
since Lakeside is not selling direct, are any of the SOTs that are tinkering with them selling the 'tinkered with' versions now? TRG |
No, when the upgrades are blessed by Lakeside and become part of the production units, those with older units will be able to get the upgrades. Whether there will be a charge, I don't know - I would say yes ..... But, the upgrades will amount to a weight or a few springs or something like that, not a whole upper/bolt/........ |
Forget about everything mentioned here, I want to know how you can save that much a month. After gas and food each month, I barely have enough left for toilet paper!! (and less of that keeps my food bills down). Guess you don't buy much ammo. |
I got divorced. That is the biggest reason. I eat cheap. I use the A/C sparingly. I turned off the cable TV. I drive a fuel efficient car that is paid for (no payments other than Ins.) I also turn off any extra appliances (deep freeze, kitchen water heater, etc.) In addition to the money I save I pay extra on my mortgage on my house each month and on the adjacent property mortgage. Those extra payments amount to about 750-1000 paid to the principal on those mortgages each month. I live frugally, but still enjoy a meal out with the FD, or drinking beer with my buddies around a pond. Live frugally, save where I can. Pay extra on any debt. Simple plan. I also teach extra courses each semester to increase my take home pay. I work a parttime (24hr) shift at hte FD once per month. And I have a third job for spending money each month doing electrical sales (125.00 a month or so) I stay busy, enjoy life, and avoid wasting money. My TV is 9 years old, TRG |
| Just my $0.02: I own a few old WW2 SMGs like Stens, M3, 1928, Ppsh41 and a couple HMGs as well as FAL, M14, AKs etc. - fantastic wall decorations thay all are with alot of history. They don't go shooting much. When I feel like busting off a few hundred caps it's always through the M16 9mm upper and Keuhl .22 upper, the MP5 or the Sterling. They are modern, hugely reliable, easy to maintain, easy to load, don't need alot of cleaning, easy to suppress. If you want something to shoot alot and truly enjoy in addition to the M16 stuff you already have buy an MP5 or NFA equivalent (that part I can't advise on). It is only a matter of time until HK stop making the MP5, it's their last metal gun and only in production due to Arab sales that haven't slowed down. I have no experience with Uzis other than shoooting one once (thanx Tony) but will soon have a Mini. |
Cause borrowing isn't OWNING......   Best NFA purchase I ever made!!!!!! Semper Fi, M60-E4  RIA M60 W/ US Ordnance E4 Upgrade  |
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