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Posted: 3/19/2014 6:25:48 PM EDT
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I made my first trip to the range to try out my very first reloads. I was very excited with high hopes, but sadly I screwed up somewhere. I was testing work-up loads in my full size 1911 with 230gn jacketed bullets with an OAL of 1.242". Using bullseye powder, I went from 3.8-5.0gn in 0.2gn increments. Powder was measured with a Hornady beam scale that was zeroed and verified with check weights. Powder charges were hand trickled and weights were verified on each case. (Measured empty case first plus powder charge). Primers (Federal match) all seemed to seated by hand and none went in too easy (or at least it seemed). Brass is all once fired from either myself or friends of mine that I shoot with.
When I processed the brass, I did it in this order: -dry tumbled -resized/deprimed -cleaned primer pockets (Lyman hand tool) -uniformed flash holes -expand -charge -seat -crimp with Lee FCD http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r183/jaredhayosh/Mobile%20Uploads/B03B1006-3037-4672-A792-240943095E3E.jpghttp://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r183/jaredhayosh/Mobile%20Uploads/1ADE933F-CCDD-4D5E-957F-ECFF35EDED8A.jpg I also noticed that all of the cases had an unusual amount of black soot on the outside of them. Could my barrel be the issue? Did I screw up when I cleaned the primer pockets? As you can see I lost a primer or two in the testing process. I never loaded more than one round at a time in case something went wrong. After testing my loads I burned through a box of factory winchester ammo and I had zero flat primers but I did still notice the external soot on the cases. Any help is appreciated. I have the brass set aside for now as I'll probably just scrap it to be on the safe side. |
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Try some Winchester primers. Sometimes you just have loose primer pockets, it may not be anything you have done wrong. The soot on the brass is something I have seen on some 1911's before and other not. I would point that on the firing pin retaining block angle from what I've read. The angle on the bottom half determines when how long it will take to open the slide. Fitting a new stop plate will make the slide stay closed longer and allow more powder to be burned while the case is still in the chamber. Which may be the cause of the primers blowing out. |
| The soot on the cases is normal. It looks like you have primers backing out on other fired cases in your photo. It may have been your starting loads that backed the primers out, 3.8 gr is pretty low. 5.0 gr of Bullseye is a common load for 230 gr bullets. I usually run 4.6 to 4.8 for 230 gr plated bullets. |
| Primers backing out is often a sign of too low a powder charge. Did you see whether they backed out for the lower charges only, or did you not track the brass shot for shot? The pockets may also be loose, although I haven't encountered that much on 45. If the primer feels way too easy to seat (you'll get a feel for this), it's a good idea to scrap that piece of brass. I also believe you'll find that primer pocket uniforming is a waste of time. |
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Try some Winchester primers. Sometimes you just have loose primer pockets, it may not be anything you have done wrong. The soot on the brass is something I have seen on some 1911's before and other not. I would point that on the firing pin retaining block angle from what I've read. The angle on the bottom half determines when how long it will take to open the slide. Fitting a new stop plate will make the slide stay closed longer and allow more powder to be burned while the case is still in the chamber. Which may be the cause of the primers blowing out. I was thinking along these lines as well. I just finished cleaning the gun a few minutes ago and I noticed that the recoil spring was a coil and a half shorter than my new spare one so I swapped it out. But that still doesn't explain the flattened primers with only a 3.8gn charge. Shouldn't happen as far as I understand. And the firing pin stop plate is one part I've been meaning to change out. It's not worn noticeably but I hate MIM parts lol. |
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Primers backing out is often a sign of too low a powder charge. Did you see whether they backed out for the lower charges only, or did you not track the brass shot for shot? The pockets may also be loose, although I haven't encountered that much on 45. If the primer feels way too easy to seat (you'll get a feel for this), it's a good idea to scrap that piece of brass. I also believe you'll find that primer pocket uniforming is a waste of time. Thanks for the reply. I had two primers back out. One at 4.6gn and one at 5.0gn charges. The flattening of the primers happened on every one although not as pronounced on the 4.8/5.0gn charges. I wasn't necessarily uniforming the pockets. Just cleaning the carbon from the inside of them. |
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Quoted: Soot is normal, I get it all the time in my 1911. Dunno about your charge as I don't use bullseye. Popping primers is usually a sign of high pressure or loose primer pockets. Check your charge. Oh, and I can't believe you did that much brass prep for pistol  99% chance the popped primers are one of those two. |
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Quoted: Also, I just tried hand seating a primer in one of the cases that lost a primer. It didn't work so I'm at a loss  . Does anybody make a go/no-go gauge for primer pockets? Or should I just try a different brand of primers and see how I fare with those?"It didn't work" is a bit short on detail. It didn't work because the primer pockets were so loose they just fell back out, or it didn't work since I couldn't force them back in, but you used the phrase "hand seating", does that mean you used a hand tool, or did you just try to put them in with just your fingers? You need a tool to seat primers, if you can push them in with your fingers they will just fall back out, you need a tool for mechanical advantage, I can't describe how much force it should take, experience will be your guide once you have experience. |
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99% chance the popped primers are one of those two. Quoted:
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Soot is normal, I get it all the time in my 1911. Dunno about your charge as I don't use bullseye. Popping primers is usually a sign of high pressure or loose primer pockets. Check your charge. Oh, and I can't believe you did that much brass prep for pistol 99% chance the popped primers are one of those two. I can guarantee the charge. So it has to be loose pockets. I'll scrap the brass and try another batch. |
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"It didn't work" is a bit short on detail. It didn't work because the primer pockets were so loose they just fell back out, or it didn't work since I couldn't force them back in, but you used the phrase "hand seating", does that mean you used a hand tool, or did you just try to put them in with just your fingers? You need a tool to seat primers, if you can push them in with your fingers they will just fall back out, you need a tool for mechanical advantage, I can't describe how much force it should take, experience will be your guide once you have experience. Quoted:
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Also, I just tried hand seating a primer in one of the cases that lost a primer. It didn't work so I'm at a loss . Does anybody make a go/no-go gauge for primer pockets? Or should I just try a different brand of primers and see how I fare with those?"It didn't work" is a bit short on detail. It didn't work because the primer pockets were so loose they just fell back out, or it didn't work since I couldn't force them back in, but you used the phrase "hand seating", does that mean you used a hand tool, or did you just try to put them in with just your fingers? You need a tool to seat primers, if you can push them in with your fingers they will just fall back out, you need a tool for mechanical advantage, I can't describe how much force it should take, experience will be your guide once you have experience. Sorry that I was a bit vague. I tried to literally push one in with my hand against the table(not putting too much force on it) merely to test a theory that I had. I figured that if the pockets were THAT loose then it should work, but it did not. It was based off of something I had read on other reloading forums. All of these primers were originally seated using a hand priming tool. |
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I can guarantee the charge. So it has to be loose pockets. I'll scrap the brass and try another batch. Quoted:
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Soot is normal, I get it all the time in my 1911. Dunno about your charge as I don't use bullseye. Popping primers is usually a sign of high pressure or loose primer pockets. Check your charge. Oh, and I can't believe you did that much brass prep for pistol 99% chance the popped primers are one of those two. I can guarantee the charge. So it has to be loose pockets. I'll scrap the brass and try another batch. I'll dispose of it for you!
I have fired 1000's of used cases and have not had primers back out. I doubt it is the primer pockets or primers causing the issue. |
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I'll dispose of it for you!
I have fired 1000's of used cases and have not had primers back out. I doubt it is the primer pockets or primers causing the issue. Quoted:
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Soot is normal, I get it all the time in my 1911. Dunno about your charge as I don't use bullseye. Popping primers is usually a sign of high pressure or loose primer pockets. Check your charge. Oh, and I can't believe you did that much brass prep for pistol 99% chance the popped primers are one of those two. I can guarantee the charge. So it has to be loose pockets. I'll scrap the brass and try another batch. I'll dispose of it for you!
I have fired 1000's of used cases and have not had primers back out. I doubt it is the primer pockets or primers causing the issue. What would you suggest the problem is then? |
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Also, I just tried hand seating a primer in one of the cases that lost a primer. It didn't work so I'm at a loss . Does anybody make a go/no-go gauge for primer pockets? Or should I just try a different brand of primers and see how I fare with those?Yes, Ballistic tools. I have this set as I sometimes ream crimped primer holes with Hornaday's pocket reamers and though they have a positive stop and difficult to mess up with, I use them as a double check before priming; http://ballistictools.com/store/three-gage-pack |
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What brand /style bullet are you loading? Where did you find your specs? My Lyman manual calls for 1.270 col for 230 grn jacketed. Where are you located? Feel free to IM me , if you live close I would be happy to try and help. I would agree with this info. I use 4.9-5.1 gr. Of bullseyewith a plated or fmj loaded to 1.265". +/- .005 |
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Where in MI are you bud?
Primers look just fine in the photo. I am new to reloading also. I use bullseye to and it works just fine at 4.5gn under 230gn lead The soot is just fine. Mine does the same thing.. If your close I can lend some CCI primers if you cant find any. |
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I'm unfamiliar with the Lyman hand tool for primer pockets and uniforming the flash holes.
I started loading with .45 ACP and have never had a problem with the primer pockets. That would lead me to believe that your load was way to hot or your extra attention to the primer pockets caused the problem. |
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I'll dispose of it for you!
I have fired 1000's of used cases and have not had primers back out. I doubt it is the primer pockets or primers causing the issue. Quoted:
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Soot is normal, I get it all the time in my 1911. Dunno about your charge as I don't use bullseye. Popping primers is usually a sign of high pressure or loose primer pockets. Check your charge. Oh, and I can't believe you did that much brass prep for pistol 99% chance the popped primers are one of those two. I can guarantee the charge. So it has to be loose pockets. I'll scrap the brass and try another batch. I'll dispose of it for you!
I have fired 1000's of used cases and have not had primers back out. I doubt it is the primer pockets or primers causing the issue. Yeah, unless every primer backed out, I'm thinking you simply didn't seat them deep enough. They should be slightly....'counter-sunk' is about the only way I can describe it. Just barely under the case head. Yours all look flat across, and several are high. Do you have any pics of your loaded non-fired rounds? |
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Where in MI are you bud? Primers look just fine in the photo. I am new to reloading also. I use bullseye to and it works just fine at 4.5gn under 230gn lead The soot is just fine. Mine does the same thing.. If your close I can lend some CCI primers if you cant find any. I'm in chesterfield. You? |
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Yeah, unless every primer backed out, I'm thinking you simply didn't seat them deep enough. They should be slightly....'counter-sunk' is about the only way I can describe it. Just barely under the case head. Yours all look flat across, and several are high. Do you have any pics of your loaded non-fired rounds? Quoted:
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Soot is normal, I get it all the time in my 1911. Dunno about your charge as I don't use bullseye. Popping primers is usually a sign of high pressure or loose primer pockets. Check your charge. Oh, and I can't believe you did that much brass prep for pistol 99% chance the popped primers are one of those two. I can guarantee the charge. So it has to be loose pockets. I'll scrap the brass and try another batch. I'll dispose of it for you!
I have fired 1000's of used cases and have not had primers back out. I doubt it is the primer pockets or primers causing the issue. Yeah, unless every primer backed out, I'm thinking you simply didn't seat them deep enough. They should be slightly....'counter-sunk' is about the only way I can describe it. Just barely under the case head. Yours all look flat across, and several are high. Do you have any pics of your loaded non-fired rounds? They were l seated below flush by .004 +/-.001 |
| My standard load for my 45 ACP is 5.0 grains of Bullseye for a 230 round nose bullet. I have shot a few thousand of these and have not had any issues. What primers are you using? I am using CCI large pistol primers and lots of different brands of brass. Most of the primers do not look bad and if you have 1 or 2 rounds of brass that go bad, well throw them in the scrap bin and drive on. |
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My standard load for my 45 ACP is 5.0 grains of Bullseye for a 230 round nose bullet. I have shot a few thousand of these and have not had any issues. What primers are you using? I am using CCI large pistol primers and lots of different brands of brass. Most of the primers do not look bad and if you have 1 or 2 rounds of brass that go bad, well throw them in the scrap bin and drive on. I'm using federal match LP primers. I'm only loading LP brass for now and storing all my SP brass for who knows what. What OAL are you using? |
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I'm in chesterfield. You? Quoted:
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Where in MI are you bud? Primers look just fine in the photo. I am new to reloading also. I use bullseye to and it works just fine at 4.5gn under 230gn lead The soot is just fine. Mine does the same thing.. If your close I can lend some CCI primers if you cant find any. I'm in chesterfield. You? Ah you are a little far lol I am in hudsonville.. Over on the west side What reloading book are you useing? I would try and snag some different primers or try some other cases and see what happens. You honestly do not need to deburr pistol flash holes. If you want to because your OCD like me then you can, But you wont see any changes. |
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Ah you are a little far lol I am in hudsonville.. Over on the west side What reloading book are you useing? I would try and snag some different primers or try some other cases and see what happens. You honestly do not need to deburr pistol flash holes. If you want to because your OCD like me then you can, But you wont see any changes. Quoted:
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Where in MI are you bud? Primers look just fine in the photo. I am new to reloading also. I use bullseye to and it works just fine at 4.5gn under 230gn lead The soot is just fine. Mine does the same thing.. If your close I can lend some CCI primers if you cant find any. I'm in chesterfield. You? Ah you are a little far lol I am in hudsonville.. Over on the west side What reloading book are you useing? I would try and snag some different primers or try some other cases and see what happens. You honestly do not need to deburr pistol flash holes. If you want to because your OCD like me then you can, But you wont see any changes. Thanks for the info. I'm using a Lyman 49th and a Hornady 9th manual. I'm gonna try to pick up some CCI or Winchester primers this weekend to try them out. |
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They were l seated below flush by .004 +/-.001 Quoted:
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snip the quote tree (thought the board did that automagically?) Yeah, unless every primer backed out, I'm thinking you simply didn't seat them deep enough. They should be slightly....'counter-sunk' is about the only way I can describe it. Just barely under the case head. Yours all look flat across, and several are high. Do you have any pics of your loaded non-fired rounds? They were l seated below flush by .004 +/-.001 Huh. Well, in that case I can only guess that maybe you got too agressive with the flash hole deburring. It only takes a couple light turns to knock the crud out. Maybe that's it? I've loaded thousands of .45 ACP over 20 years, I've never had primers back out. Never had primers back out of anything, including some hot .44 and .357 loads. |
| I've loaded 9mm for nearly 3 years now and have found that some soot is normal. And it especially depends on the powder used. I found that BlueDot was very dirty, but Ramshot Zip is pretty clean. I also noted a long while ago that the amount of crimp helped some as well. |
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I'm using federal match LP primers. I'm only loading LP brass for now and storing all my SP brass for who knows what. What OAL are you using? Quoted:
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My standard load for my 45 ACP is 5.0 grains of Bullseye for a 230 round nose bullet. I have shot a few thousand of these and have not had any issues. What primers are you using? I am using CCI large pistol primers and lots of different brands of brass. Most of the primers do not look bad and if you have 1 or 2 rounds of brass that go bad, well throw them in the scrap bin and drive on. I'm using federal match LP primers. I'm only loading LP brass for now and storing all my SP brass for who knows what. What OAL are you using? My OAL is 1.262" |
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1) The black soot is because your loads are LIGHT. Light loads don't expand the walls of the case against the chamber, which seals the chamber off preventing the entrance of gas. It's no big deal and doesn't hurt a thing. At 5.0 grs. of B'Eye, you're probably not close to a max load yet, UNLESS you have your bullets seated too deep which will raise pressures....but again, the sooty cases indicate low pressure.
2) Light loads properly assembled will NOT cause primers to back out. 3) One thing nobody has mentioned is headspace. Have you trimmed your cases? The 45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth so if you trim the cases too short, the headspace is off and this definitely will cause primers to back out. Check the length of the case in question. 4) When you uniformed the flash holes, you didn't enlarge them did you? Keep us posted! |
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I would like to clear up a part of your process mentioned in your original post. When you were weighing your charges, did you have the empty case on the scale, scale zeroed, and then trickled the charge into the case on the scale? You will find a variance in the weight of each case, which if it was slightly less, would have meant more powder than you thought was used to charge that round. Leave your primed, empty case in loading block, then trickle/weigh only the powder charge, then transfer from scale to case using the powder pan and a funnel.
If I misinterpreted your method, disregard this, was just confused when it appeared you mentioned you were weighing the empty case. |
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1) The black soot is because your loads are LIGHT. Light loads don't expand the walls of the case against the chamber, which seals the chamber off preventing the entrance of gas. It's no big deal and doesn't hurt a thing. At 5.0 grs. of B'Eye, you're probably not close to a max load yet, UNLESS you have your bullets seated too deep which will raise pressures....but again, the sooty cases indicate low pressure. 2) Light loads properly assembled will NOT cause primers to back out. 3) One thing nobody has mentioned is headspace. Have you trimmed your cases? The 45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth so if you trim the cases too short, the headspace is off and this definitely will cause primers to back out. Check the length of the case in question. 4) When you uniformed the flash holes, you didn't enlarge them did you? Keep us posted! Cases were not trimmed. From what I've learned trimming pistol brass, especially 45, isn't necessary. I only removed the burrs on the flash holes. |
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I would like to clear up a part of your process mentioned in your original post. When you were weighing your charges, did you have the empty case on the scale, scale zeroed, and then trickled the charge into the case on the scale? You will find a variance in the weight of each case, which if it was slightly less, would have meant more powder than you thought was used to charge that round. Leave your primed, empty case in loading block, then trickle/weigh only the powder charge, then transfer from scale to case using the powder pan and a funnel. If I misinterpreted your method, disregard this, was just confused when it appeared you mentioned you were weighing the empty case. I set my Hornady beam scale to the desired weight, trickled into the pan and then poured into the cases with a funnel. |
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I was thinking about headspace like gibbs was. Sometimes you can mess up your crimp too, ie way too much crimp so that your brass mouth goes past the chamber's end into the throat. Soft lead I would suspect would be more prone to that though.
Just thinking out loud. |
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I was thinking about headspace like gibbs was. Sometimes you can mess up your crimp too, ie way too much crimp so that your brass mouth goes past the chamber's end into the throat. Soft lead I would suspect would be more prone to that though. Just thinking out loud. Excellent point. A roll crimp instead of a taper crimp could mess with headspace. |
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*UPDATE*
Friday night I made up a new batch of work up rounds with Bullseye. This time though, I seated the bullets to an OAL of 1.272". What a difference!! Every round fed reliably and the primers were in much better shape (visibly more rounded edges). Worked out so well in fact, that I put together 100 rounds using 5.0gns of Bullseye. I had a chance to fire them off after work today. Only bad thing that happened was I lost about 20 pieces of brass at the range
My ballistic go/no go gauges just showed up today so I'm planning on testing them out on the couple cases where primers popped out or backed out part way. I'll update once I check them out. Thanks again for all the help. |
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Now that you reload, don't this just suck? I spent a hour looking for the last 3 cases I had out of 50 I reloaded. I never did find them 
Glad you got it figured out Quoted:
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Only bad thing that happened was I lost about 20 pieces of brass at the range Now that you reload, don't this just suck? I spent a hour looking for the last 3 cases I had out of 50 I reloaded. I never did find them
Glad you got it figured out You're telling me  on the bright side I also shot off 200 rounds of Winchester that I had in the safe. At least I acquired some new once fired brass today to add to the pile lol.
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