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Posted: 8/28/2006 2:51:51 PM EDT
| I just got a used M1A national match from a retired hipower shooter. I would like to put a scope on it and need a good mount. I decided one either a ARMS, Smith Enterprise or SADLAK mount. They are all very pricey but you get what you pay for. Which is best? If they are all very good then which is least exspensive? I like the ARMS but don't want to have any issues with cases not being able to eject cleanly. I plan to reload my brass and I don't want to have to fiddle with the mount to get it to fit or work. The rifle is an older pre 1993 Springfield Armory M1A NM. Thanks BTW I couldn't find the info doing a search. |
| Although I heven't had any experience with it yet, I hear good things about the SADLAK. The kit they sell will help you custom fit the mount to the weapons reciever. They also co-witness with your iron sites. They aren't as propular as the Smith or Arms mounts yet, but I have heard some very good things about this mount. I'm ordering mine next month from West Texas Armory, a little cheaper there than the SADLAK site is. |
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I have the Sadlak Ti and am very impressed with the quality of there product!! They also have just about the best customer service of ANY compony I have ever bought from.. They dont really co-witness with the irons.. Rather you look under the scope and between the rails to use the iron... I say get the Sadlak (Tho the others a very good aswell)   
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| I guess I'll go with a SADLAK heard from a bunch of people there service is tops. Too bad Brownells does not stock the all steel version. BTW I just shot my used NM today for the first time. I was in a rush and just bought some cheap Federal 150 and 180grn soft points in the blue box. I didn't have any sand bags so I just shot prone with sling. I fired 5 separate 5 shot groups at 50 yards. My largest 5 shot group was 1" and one was .75" and two were .5". Out of the 25 rounds fired I only had one flyer but I knew I pulled the rifle as soon as it went off. 4 of those rounds went into .5". Needless to say Im happier than dog with 2 peckers. On side note guy next to me let me shoot his armalite AR10 A2 with a muzzle break. It wasn't as accurate but he had SA surplus ball loaded in it when I used it. Right off the bat I noticed that it kicked about 1/2 to 1/3 as hard as my 10 1/2 lbs M1A NM. I guess Im going to have to get one of those now. |
Arent the mounts that attach to the reciever more accurate that the Scout type mounts for long range shooting? I'm new to M1A scene... B |
The currently available Scout mounts for the M1A clamp solidly to the standard-contour barrel, and if properly installed are as solid as any other mount. If you have any other barrel contour than standard GI, they will not fit. If that's the case, I have never had an issue with my ARMS mount. |
That's quite a statement. I know it is easy to get locked into the mindset of 'the way I have my shit set up and the way I shoot is the only way' too. That said, regardless of how "obsolete" mounts of this nature are - the best current generation of scout or pistol scopes can't hold a candle to a best quality long range scope. It depends on what you are doing with it. I know you know this, and I know you merely thought of it in terms of how you use and have your's set up. Good luck |
www.amegaranges.com/store/index.php www.ultimak.com/default.htm springfield Armory Inc. also offers one. |
I wonder which is the better out of the two? The Mini-Scout from Amega Ranges allows rails to be placed on the side of the rail for other accessories. Now the UltiMAK Rail says it will co-witness with irons. Is that the same with the Amega Ranges version? Looking at a 100 Buck difference here and I want to build anothrer M1A.  Nathan |
Yes, but I can back it up.
I try hard to avoid being insular, and being on boards like this constantly exposes me to new ideas. That said, sometimes an idea comes along that is obviously so much better that it is impossible to ignore. Scout scopes on M1As and M1s is one such.
I'm guessing that by "current generation of Scout or pistol scopes" you are referring primarily to either the Burris or Leupold Scout scopes, or generally speaking, quality pistol scopes. All now obsolete as well, at least for the Scout application. Some models of Burris pistol scopes not only have the correct eye relief for Scout applications, but because of their construction (variable power and Ballistic Plex reticule) are capable of not only serving as low-power Scout scopes, but long-range scopes with reticular hold-overs out to 600yds and beyond, depending on initial zero. Moreover, you can "tune" the scope so that the reticular hold-overs will be correct for different bullet weights and different muzzle velocities. I am unaware of any other scope suitable for a Scout application that has capabilities remotely approaching those outlined above. If you happen to know of another, please share.
With a set-up like the above, you can do just about anything you want.
Right now, my Super Match M1A has a conventional Burris Fullfield II 3-9X40 scope with Ballistic Plex reticule, Leupold QRW rings, and ARMS mount. Not only is the cheek weld unsat and impossible to improve, but to service the bolt or clear some malfunctions, the entire scope/mount/rings assembly must be removed. That is also unsat. All these problems are eliminated with a Scout-style scope, which is where I'm heading shortly, pending the considerable funds that a new barrel, scope, rings and mount will entail. I've built a couple or three Pseudo-scouts over the years, both bolt action and semi-auto, using the Burris and Leupold Scout scopes. I've also built a precision rifle which mounts a Leupold Vari-X III with first focal plane Mil-Dot reticule. In sum, I'm familiar with both the conventionally-scoped M1A and Scout rifles of various configurations, not to mention decent-quality optics. My point in this long-winded exposition is that not only do I have some small experience with the Scout concept, but also that I'm willing to put my money where my While I may be conservative and traditionalist on some issues, such as "Skill first, goodies later, if at all", I am a flaming revolutionary whan it comes to equipment of proven quality and utility. The Burris scopes mentioned above are as a Ferrari compared to the 1st Gen Burris and Leupold Volkswagens. |
Well guess what? SEI just informed me that the Weaver mount sale was such a huge success, they have decided to put it back into production -- believe it or not! Same price, too: $105.00, plus shipping. They are taking orders now and thye add will be up shortly. I've got all three SEI M14 NSN mounts and couldn't be happier. Well, actually I could --been waiting on my ACOG TA-55A forever and a day. |
Excellent news, it truly is a bargain and a fine product!!!! I was actually worried when I posted that they they would be sold out and the info too dated. More than once SEI found a few more boxes in storage for liquidation. SoS |
No, what I am saying is if you are not setting up a scout and intend to use your rifle for long range, a conventional mount is better due to the nature of scopes associated with long range shooting. As for Loopy scout scopes and Burris - no, I don't consider that to be type of glass that would be acceptable either in terms of design or quality. Pistol and scout scopes don't MIL, nor could you accurately MIL with it out there in the first place. Again - depends on what your doing. |
That is true, in general. As this thread was more-or-less concerning the M1A, my answer began with that platform in mind. That being the case, the M1A platform is ill-suited for use at very long ranges compared with others available, either scoped or not. Reason for this is that it does not mount conventional scopes nearly as well as other firearms, and the 7.62 NATO cartridge is marginal for very long range use. There are much better cartridges available and in use by the military and others. My 24" hvy bbl scoped bolt action precision rifle will definitely outshoot my SM M1A at long ranges, as will most other well-made bolter precision rifles.
Mil-Dots are great if you have the time to use them. Again, as this topic was originally concerned with the M1A, and since it is, at its' best, a medium range weapon, the Scout scope with reticular hold-overs is much quicker and more intuitive than any Mil-dot scope. Such modern Scout scopes are by definition short to medium range optics, and well-suited to the modern M1A. I would not want to use a Scout scoped M1A beyind 600 yds, although it could be done, given the right scope settings. Just because something is possible does not mean it ought to be done. For long ranges, give me a different platform, different cartridge, and proper long-range-type optics. |
IMO A quality milling scope is just as fast if not faster than one in the scout config. If you know how to mill and use mills for hold over you not only have a very fast system you also have the ability to slow down, observe the target, range the target, and make a very well placed shot. Aswell I would not trust most of the scout scopes on the market to handle the pounding a M1-A can do to glass. Nor would I trust most of the scout mounts I have seen to hold a zero of 1-2 MOA where most M1-A's shoot. If I am going to limit myself it is going to be my shooting skill that does it.. Not my rifle or it's glass. |
We're talking apples and oranges here. For example, students at Gunsite regularly bust hand-thrown clays with their Scout rifles. Not possible with a Mil-dot scope which is intended for long-range use only.
Let me ask you a question: Have you ever handled and used a properly set-up Scout rifle? I'm guessing you have not (most folks haven't, no biggie). If you had, you would see that we are talking two very different rifles here. As far as the Leupold and Burris scopes go, they have been tested for years using large-bore prototype Scout rifles. I'm talking African big-game cartridges whose energy makes the .308 seem puny by comparison. I own an Ultimak mount, and its mounting is very sturdy, indeed. No need to worry there, either. We really are talking at cross-purposes here. Rather than hijack this thread anymore than we have, I suggest, if you're interested, that you start another on this subject and we can discuss it there. |
Thanks |
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As usual, I'll take a contrarian view here: The M1A/M14 has wonderful balance and ergonomics, and the best iron sights ever made. Optics, unfortunately, turn it into a clumsy, awkward stick. It simply wasn't designed for them. I gave up after trying several mounts, and just use mine "stock" now. |
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Raf - again, I think you see things purely in terms of how you have your stuff set up and how you shoot. A well made M14(clone) is a 1k gun. It won't win an F-Class match against a 6mm, but for the context it was designed for - it is more than adequate. MIL Dots are ALL about speed. Benifit can be had by merely making an educated guess at distance and applying the correct hold for distance / wind / lead - again if you know what you're doing they are outstanding. A well made scout is a jack of all trades - a good thing to have. However, I am not sure what shooting a hand thrown clay has to do with anything. I've shot movers at 20 with a 10x in matches (two eyes open and practice), point shot even closer ranges - a 5" disc in the air with a 10x? probably not. Yet I don't think that is ever going to be an issue. Good luck |
We have transferred this aspect of the discussion to this thread:www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=6&t=205208 in order to not hijack this thread further. Please chime in there. |
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I have an A.R.M.S. Mount on mine I originally had the "Old Style" that I traded straight up for the new style. I prefer the "New Style" vs the "Old A.R.M.S. base" because I do not have the brass hitting my scope maring it ...and I have had no ejection problems due to this mount. Here are some pics and a component list. Jon Tank in Nebraska did all Accurizing work. USGI TRW Trigger 4.5-5lb Crisp USGI TRW OpRod fitted USGI TRW Bolt Head Space checked Jon Tank one piece NM Buffer Gas System unitized USGI Flash Suppressor Reamed Barrel Crowned and flushed to Flash Suppressor NM Jon Tank Milled front Sight NM2A rear Sight Base with USGI NM Windage & Elevation Knobs and hooded aperture McMillian M1A Stock with Ft.Devon Cut NM Jon Tank Steel Bedding Block Rooster R33 extended Bolt release A.R.M.S. Mount Leupold Illuminated MK4 BTW I brought it to the range last week three shot group measures less than 1/2 MOA @ 100ydhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0013.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0011.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0012.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/IMG_0014.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/Ft.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/Steel_Bedding_Block.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/DocMinster/103_0301.JPG |
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