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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why does keymo suck? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/25/2025 9:26:05 PM EDT
| Serious question. Keymo used to get so much love. Now, not so much. Trying to figure out why. |
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Quoted: Serious question. Keymo used to get so much love. Now, not so much. Trying to figure out why. People figured out that adding 8oz to your silencer between mount and muzzle device kinda sucks, then you toss in that it adds nearly an inch of added length. Sprinky in some QC issues and you have keymo in today's market. |
| FPNI. Expensive, heavy, QC issues (I have I think two different buddies who had issues with keymo stuff not fitting properly), and the fact that it’s largely unnecessary. I use most Plan A, with a little Plan B and SF sprinkled in there. A simple taper mount works no issues, even with a SS or running 450rds in an afternoon. |
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I'll agree it's heavy compared to today's options. It's been solid for me though and I'll continue to run what I've got. Would I buy a key-mo today? Probably not, I'm leaning towards the Griffin dual-lok system for my next purchase. Not sure if it's any lighter, but I like the secondary retention and I want a different mounting system for 5.56 stuff. Honestly I'd rather everything be direct thread with wrench flats, torque it down and not worry about it again. |
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Quoted: Snake oil Quoted: Quoted: It's funny to me that when I was shopping for my first can everyone was talking up Keymo and 87% of this forum suggested that I buy a Sandman S. It would be nice if I could convert it to Xeno. Keymo? I mean it works great, I’d just love to lighten up my muzzle. |
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Quoted: It’s funny to me that when I was shopping for my first can everyone was talking up Keymo and 87% of this forum suggested that I buy a Sandman S. It would be nice if I could convert it to Xeno. Most recommend things based on popularity, not personal experience. Here I am with ASR. Still wondering when the issues are supposed to happen. |
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I was bored. Lazarus 6 key-mo: 18.4 oz Key-mo flash hider: 4 oz, micro 3.5 oz, zero 2.4oz 21 oz total with the zero mount Lazarus 6 Xeno: 16.5oz Xeno flash hider: 3.2oz 20 oz total -------------------------------------------------------- DUAL-LOK® 5 Suppressor 5.56mm (.22 cal) 11.8 oz Dual-lok minimalist flash hider: 2.4oz 14.2 oz total |
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Quoted: Most recommend things based on popularity, not personal experience. Attached File |
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Quoted: Most recommend things based on popularity, not personal experience. Here I am with ASR. Still wondering when the issues are supposed to happen. Quoted: Quoted: It’s funny to me that when I was shopping for my first can everyone was talking up Keymo and 87% of this forum suggested that I buy a Sandman S. It would be nice if I could convert it to Xeno. Most recommend things based on popularity, not personal experience. Here I am with ASR. Still wondering when the issues are supposed to happen. At least I listened to Arfcom and not my coworker that’s into NFA stuff. He was adamant that I should buy a Specwar 7.62. I am so glad I didn’t listen to that guy. |
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Quoted: I was bored. Lazarus 6 key-mo: 18.4 oz Key-mo flash hider: 4 oz, micro 3.5 oz, zero 2.4oz 21 oz total with the zero mount Lazarus 6 Xeno: 16.5oz Xeno flash hider: 3.2oz 20 oz total -------------------------------------------------------- DUAL-LOK® 5 Suppressor 5.56mm (.22 cal) 11.8 oz Dual-lok minimalist flash hider: 2.4oz 14.2 oz total Xeno xero 1.8 Total 18.3 Still chunky compared to the griffin but makes it almost 3oz lighter than the keymo |
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Quoted: Most recommend things based on popularity, not personal experience. Keymo sucks because it’s long, heavy, and expensive, while not doing anything other mounts don’t. In its time it combined some trendy features* that were good for marketing. And it obviously worked. *a taper, 3-lug similarity, cool ratchet sound, good looks |
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I guess I’m one of the few. I have had my sandman S for a few years now and it was my first center fire rifle can. I currently swap it between 2x11.5 AR 14.5 ar 16” .308 LMT MWS zero issues with it, it gets ran hard and I have not had it carbon lock on or come loose during use. Is it heavy? Sure is, can I mag dump the ever living fuck out of it and not have a problem? Fuck yeah. Are there better options, no doubt. But it works for me. |
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Quoted: I guess I’m one of the few. I have had my sandman S for a few years now and it was my first center fire rifle can. I currently swap it between 2x11.5 AR 14.5 ar 16” .308 LMT MWS zero issues with it, it gets ran hard and I have not had it carbon lock on or come loose during use. Is it heavy? Sure is, can I mag dump the ever living fuck out of it and not have a problem? Fuck yeah. Are there better options, no doubt. But it works for me. |
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OCL has made numerous posts about Keymo being their #1 cause of warranty work, and I believe CAT won’t warranty your can if you use Keymo for similar reasons. When he was still coming on here,Todd used to get mad about me pointing out that it was long, heavy, and expensive all the time. He’d ask me where the bad Keymo had touched me and accused me of some nonsense of picking it to rail against because it was the mainstream, like I was part of some NFA counterculture. It was a dumb argument. My undergrad background is mechanical engineering, and Keymo always struck me as a dumb design from the get-go. Green0 took heat for calling it “gadgety,” but that is the perfect adjective. Overly complex with no benefit and introduces numerous failure modes with no apparent benefit. |
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Quoted: Snake oil Or just the times. Everyone was talking up Rugged and Dead Air back in 2018-2021 or so. In the mean time the industry changed, and the cans most popular back then were greatly improved upon and now seem shitty by comparison. However, Keymo notwithstanding, the massive derision towards cans of this era likely has more to do with the influx of popular testing than it does with their real world performance. |
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Quoted: OCL has made numerous posts about Keymo being their #1 cause of warranty work, and I believe CAT won’t warranty your can if you use Keymo for similar reasons. When he was still coming on here,Todd used to get mad about me pointing out that it was long, heavy, and expensive all the time. He’d ask me where the bad Keymo had touched me and accused me of some nonsense of picking it to rail against because it was the mainstream, like I was part of some NFA counterculture. It was a dumb argument. My undergrad background is mechanical engineering, and Keymo always struck me as a dumb design from the get-go. Green0 took heat for calling it “gadgety,” but that is the perfect adjective. Overly complex with no benefit and introduces numerous failure modes with no apparent benefit. Early on it was marketed as perfect for tucking a can into a handguard. Which works potentially better for integral, native mounts on the Sandman series, but could still have issues with thread in bravo mounts if the key locking doesn't unlock perfectly. Ultimately thats a problem in search of a problem (if you shoot enough to warm up the can or need to mount a handguard accessory out at recessed-suppressor location). Competition eventually weeds out or refines products with minimal beta testing / system integration / QC, or poor requirements development. |
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Quoted: OCL has made numerous posts about Keymo being their #1 cause of warranty work, and I believe CAT won’t warranty your can if you use Keymo for similar reasons. When he was still coming on here,Todd used to get mad about me pointing out that it was long, heavy, and expensive all the time. He’d ask me where the bad Keymo had touched me and accused me of some nonsense of picking it to rail against because it was the mainstream, like I was part of some NFA counterculture. It was a dumb argument. My undergrad background is mechanical engineering, and Keymo always struck me as a dumb design from the get-go. Green0 took heat for calling it “gadgety,” but that is the perfect adjective. Overly complex with no benefit and introduces numerous failure modes with no apparent benefit. There are a lot of mounts on the market that have idiosyncrasies so key mo isn’t alone there- like ASR with its kind of slip capable detenting lok springs that apparently need the springs stretched in certain circumstances when they slip too easily. Where it touched you is a diversion from the topic, but that would have been Todd’s objective in the interaction. The weight of keymo and putting all the stress on three little tabs that one of which, in rare cases breaks off, aside from not locking are the major issues with the system, although it functions acceptably for a lot of people. I think air leaks also happen because the three grooves cut in the sealing surface allow some loss of pressure at what should be a sealing surface. The newer collars got slots that appear to redirect leaked gas sideways rather than pushing it back at the optics and the shooter’s face. I only called it gadgety after buying one that didn’t fit the two mounts I bought for it, which resulted in me removing the collar to try to figure it out and then realizing what a pain in the ass it was to re-assemble - something to do with matching two pairs of the three little lugs. I could also mount the can, grab the collar and twist maybe 20 degrees and pop it off. That kind of behavior didn’t make sense as desirable behavior for a mount to have even if it doesn’t normally happen in operation. I think keymo weighs 2.5 to maybe 3 ounces more than dual lok just factoring the mounts not the muzzle adapters. But a lot of the work in dual lok was getting it reasonably light without titanium parts. |
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Quoted: Sandman S is a perfectly viable option, especially if you already have one. It's add-on Keymos for HUB or Charlie that suck. If it's built in to the silencer, like on the Sandman, I might say it's pretty mid, but there's nothing wrong with it. Nah, Keymo on the sandman still sucks. I had problems with mine in 2018 and sent it back multiple times to dead air. It was never fixed. Everyone online told me I was retarded and must have been the cause of the problems, not the hallowed keymo. I swore it off back when the entire internet was abuzz with it. Fast forward and now everyone seems to be in agreement that it sucks. I don't have anything xeno related but might still use my sanmdan if xeno were an option. |
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Quoted: Nah, Keymo on the sandman still sucks. I had problems with mine in 2018 and sent it back multiple times to dead air. It was never fixed. Everyone online told me I was retarded and must have been the cause of the problems, not the hallowed keymo. I swore it off back when the entire internet was abuzz with it. Fast forward and now everyone seems to be in agreement that it sucks. I don't have anything xeno related but might still use my sanmdan if xeno were an option. Go figure, actual, first hand experience. My experiences are the same. I had four keymo mounts that would never stay tight on any muzzle device I tried them on. Heavy, long, unreliable junk. |
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DA QC strikes again. I was aware they had some problems but wasn’t aware that it affected the Sandman, pre FDE “contract overrun”. I haven’t personally seen any mount related problems with the Sandman series, so I’m not sure how common they were. Its clear that DA and their rabid following did a good job of suppressing that info. What I was getting at is, if you have a Sandman S, you don’t need to be in a rush to replace it, if you like it. But people buying HUB cans should just pass on Keymo altogether…there’s no reason to consider it, and it’ll make your modern lightweight K can expensive, long, and heavy. |
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Quoted: Since we are kind of talking about it, does Ecco or anyone else now offer conversions for the sandman's? I'd love to cut almost an inch off and lose 3oz or so, something like Rearden. ECCO doesn’t and I think they’ve said they’re not sure if they’ll ever resume. FWIW, the OAL of your can is listed on the F4, so anyone doing the conversion is likely going to space the HUB threads out so you end up at the same OAL. When ECCO did my Rugged cans, they maintained the factory OAL even though practically speaking, they could have been made much shorter with a shorter mounting system. |
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Quoted: ECCO doesn’t and I think they’ve said they’re not sure if they’ll ever resume. FWIW, the OAL of your can is listed on the F4, so anyone doing the conversion is likely going to space the HUB threads out so you end up at the same OAL. When ECCO did my Rugged cans, they maintained the factory OAL even though practically speaking, they could have been made much shorter with a shorter mounting system. Quoted: Quoted: Since we are kind of talking about it, does Ecco or anyone else now offer conversions for the sandman's? I'd love to cut almost an inch off and lose 3oz or so, something like Rearden. ECCO doesn’t and I think they’ve said they’re not sure if they’ll ever resume. FWIW, the OAL of your can is listed on the F4, so anyone doing the conversion is likely going to space the HUB threads out so you end up at the same OAL. When ECCO did my Rugged cans, they maintained the factory OAL even though practically speaking, they could have been made much shorter with a shorter mounting system. So basically you're saying we are screwed lol. |
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Quoted: So basically you're saying we are screwed lol. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Since we are kind of talking about it, does Ecco or anyone else now offer conversions for the sandman's? I'd love to cut almost an inch off and lose 3oz or so, something like Rearden. ECCO doesn’t and I think they’ve said they’re not sure if they’ll ever resume. FWIW, the OAL of your can is listed on the F4, so anyone doing the conversion is likely going to space the HUB threads out so you end up at the same OAL. When ECCO did my Rugged cans, they maintained the factory OAL even though practically speaking, they could have been made much shorter with a shorter mounting system. So basically you're saying we are screwed lol. Don’t quote me, but I’m nearly certain I saw ECCO comment in another thread somewhat recently that they’re likely not resuming mount conversions or recores, but they were looking into other workshops to see if there was anyone they’d “endorse” to carry the torch. So yes, essentially, if you need a mount conversion right now, either trust some random no name shop with little rep or you’re screwed. With how fast F4s are going nowadays, I’d probably recommend just picking up a new can altogether instead of throwing good money after bad on a potential fly-by-night outfit. |
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Quoted: Don’t quote me, but I’m nearly certain I saw ECCO comment in another thread somewhat recently that they’re likely not resuming mount conversions or recores, but they were looking into other workshops to see if there was anyone they’d “endorse” to carry the torch. So yes, essentially, if you need a mount conversion right now, either trust some random no name shop with little rep or you’re screwed. With how fast F4s are going nowadays, I’d probably recommend just picking up a new can altogether instead of throwing good money after bad on a potential fly-by-night outfit. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Since we are kind of talking about it, does Ecco or anyone else now offer conversions for the sandman's? I'd love to cut almost an inch off and lose 3oz or so, something like Rearden. ECCO doesn’t and I think they’ve said they’re not sure if they’ll ever resume. FWIW, the OAL of your can is listed on the F4, so anyone doing the conversion is likely going to space the HUB threads out so you end up at the same OAL. When ECCO did my Rugged cans, they maintained the factory OAL even though practically speaking, they could have been made much shorter with a shorter mounting system. So basically you're saying we are screwed lol. Don’t quote me, but I’m nearly certain I saw ECCO comment in another thread somewhat recently that they’re likely not resuming mount conversions or recores, but they were looking into other workshops to see if there was anyone they’d “endorse” to carry the torch. So yes, essentially, if you need a mount conversion right now, either trust some random no name shop with little rep or you’re screwed. With how fast F4s are going nowadays, I’d probably recommend just picking up a new can altogether instead of throwing good money after bad on a potential fly-by-night outfit. Yea I'm not in a hurry or anything, and looking at several new cans anyway. I was just thinking an update might be nice instead of not getting used much. But if they can't change the length/make it shorter then it's pointless anyway. |
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Quoted: Yea I'm not in a hurry or anything, and looking at several new cans anyway. I was just thinking an update might be nice instead of not getting used much. But if they can't change the length/make it shorter then it's pointless anyway. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you can go shorter but not longer. I did an AAC Ranger 7 conversion on a SDN6 can and requested a shorter config and AAC obliged. |
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Quoted: I got my Fortis forearm when Dickmod was all the rage. I filled the holes with Noveske panels and don't even think about them anymore. It has rail bits at the far end where I attached a light, but is slim in the middle where my hand goes. I'm happy with my purchase. Keymo =/= Keymod |
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Quoted: Correct you can go shorter not longer. Quoted: Quoted: Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you can go shorter but not longer. I did an AAC Ranger 7 conversion on a SDN6 can and requested a shorter config and AAC obliged. Correct you can go shorter not longer. Ah ok so it's still on the table. Guess we just need to find someone to do it. Why did Ecco quit conversions, are they too backlogged? |
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Quoted: Since we are kind of talking about it, does Ecco or anyone else now offer conversions for the sandman's? I'd love to cut almost an inch off and lose 3oz or so, something like Rearden. I’m in the same boat. My first can was one of the FDE Sandman-S contract overruns. I bought it back when Sandman-S was still one of the recommended good-to-go cans. My sample of one has not had any issues. I know a lot of people were saying the contract overruns were having big QC problems. I probably lucked out cause mine had no scratches, no loose mount, no finish issues etc. I have it on an 11.5” upper and I like it a lot on that setup. I’ve since bought a few more cans, but probably won’t buy another DA for a while. I had a pretty bad experience with a Sierra 5 that turned me off from them. That said, I would like to have a plan in case I start having issues with the keymo mount after some time. I almost sent my Sandman to Ecco when they were still doing conversions. But ended up putting it off because I figured I might as well use it as is til it starts actually having problems. |
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Quoted: I’m in the same boat. My first can was one of the FDE Sandman-S contract overruns. I bought it back when Sandman-S was still one of the recommended good-to-go cans. My sample of one has not had any issues. I know a lot of people were saying the contract overruns were having big QC problems. I probably lucked out cause mine had no scratches, no loose mount, no finish issues etc. I have it on an 11.5” upper and I like it a lot on that setup. I’ve since bought a few more cans, but probably won’t buy another DA for a while. I had a pretty bad experience with a Sierra 5 that turned me off from them. That said, I would like to have a plan in case I start having issues with the keymo mount after some time. I almost sent my Sandman to Ecco when they were still doing conversions. But ended up putting it off because I figured I might as well use it as is til it starts actually having problems. |
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A lot of added weight with no real benefit. Xeno adds length with no real benefit. Edit*** Since xeno was brought up this is a short write up I did some time ago. Somebody asked about left hand threads and whatnot. I was switching from xeno to plan a "-The left hand was never going to help with carbon lock -Huxwurx also uses left hand tapers so this isn't an exclusive feature to xeno. I'm not knocking xeno. It's a great idea and all the muzzle devices, frankly look fantastic. I have no alignment issues and my poi shift is repeatable on both mounts. Dead airs questionable qc is probably the culprit to both my muzzle devices having minor issues. The carbon lock wasn't stupid fused and the other one walks only on hard firing sequences. I think dead air is using such a long mounting system to create the illusion their cans are shorter than they really are since there's no space to account for muzzle devices built into the cans themselves. This is evident with the nomad needing plan a-l (or xl can't remember) when paired with ANY plan a device where as something like the explorr can take all but the longer plan a devices without needed a longer mounting system. If they shaved off half the added length to stay competitive I'd probably just say fuck it and see I'd new muzzle devices fixed my issues. But as it stands it's much longer than the competition without adding a whole lot of additional function to make it worth while." |
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Quoted: A lot of added weight with no real benefit. Xeno adds length with no real benefit. Edit*** Since xeno was brought up this is a short write up I did some time ago. Somebody asked about left hand threads and whatnot. I was switching from xeno to plan a "-The left hand was never going to help with carbon lock -Huxwurx also uses left hand tapers so this isn't an exclusive feature to xeno. I'm not knocking xeno. It's a great idea and all the muzzle devices, frankly look fantastic. I have no alignment issues and my poi shift is repeatable on both mounts. Dead airs questionable qc is probably the culprit to both my muzzle devices having minor issues. The carbon lock wasn't stupid fused and the other one walks only on hard firing sequences. I think dead air is using such a long mounting system to create the illusion their cans are shorter than they really are since there's no space to account for muzzle devices built into the cans themselves. This is evident with the nomad needing plan a-l (or xl can't remember) when paired with ANY plan a device where as something like the explorr can take all but the longer plan a devices without needed a longer mounting system. If they shaved off half the added length to stay competitive I'd probably just say fuck it and see I'd new muzzle devices fixed my issues. But as it stands it's much longer than the competition without adding a whole lot of additional function to make it worth while." I hate how long Xeno is on the back end. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why does keymo suck? (Page 1 of 2)
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