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Posted: 12/8/2013 9:24:38 AM EDT
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Back in the "help me pick a powder" thread, the one that rose to the top was IMR 8208. It wasn't in the original group as I must have missed it. So I picked up a lb of that and worked up a ladder with 5 shot groups to check for pressure, etc. My overall goal in all this is to get tighter groups through 1. Making better ammo, 2. Making it cheaper so I can shoot more. Step one is a "sub MOA group". Granted, I know you are not supposed to be looking for that with an AR-15 as it is not what it is designed for, but it is the rifle I own. Anyway, here is the 23.5g 8208, pushing Hornady 55g fmjbt with Remington 7 1/2 SRP.  Missed it by THAT much! On another note, any idea what would cause the four to stack like that...other than shooter error?
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Could be head position, or not having the same amount of powder, or a non adjustable paralax scope.
My bet is on head position, having your head tilted either up or down. JMHO ETA I'd also try making some of your own targets up, I like a 1' diamond with a white circle with lines al the way across to line up the crosshears with, Blk and white of course. Red or orange tends to bleed and not get a good sight picture. http://s240.photobucket.com/user/We-rborg/media/2247Big_Target.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4#/user/We-rborg/media/2247Big_Target.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4&_suid=1386528349625031780352603301576 |
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Without any weapon info it is hard to say, but right off a few questions come to mind. 1) Carbine w/standard hand guards or free floated 2) type of rest used and position 3) stock trigger or...
My first impression is stock hand guard, a bag or other under the hand guard with inconsistent applied pressure, and as the barrel heated up the POI moved up. Were the following rounds striking near the last shot on paper? |
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Quoted:
Without any weapon info it is hard to say, but right off a few questions come to mind. 1) Carbine w/standard hand guards or free floated 2) type of rest used and position 3) stock trigger or... My first impression is stock hand guard, a bag or other under the hand guard with inconsistent applied pressure, and as the barrel heated up the POI moved up. Were the following rounds striking near the last shot on paper? Not sure on the handguard, it would be more of a circular pattern. Could be barrel heat, but then again , you'd see a more circular group. If a trigger, it would be either low left or low right generally, depending of left hand or right. Could very well be the front rest. Ther again, JMHO |
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pushing Hornady 55g fmjbt This is your main problem. Although some handloaders will have sub MOA accuracy with a FMJ bullet most will not, in fact very few will. If you want Sub MOA accuracy you have to use a bullet designed for accuracy and the FMJ ain't it. Getcha some Sierra Matchkings in 52gr and up and go for it. To be perfectly honest your group with Hornady 55gr FMJ is above average in most AR rifles. |
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Quoted:
This is your main problem. Although some handloaders will have sub MOA accuracy with a FMJ bullet most will not, in fact very few will. If you want Sub MOA accuracy you have to use a bullet designed for accuracy and the FMJ ain't it. Getcha some Sierra Matchkings in 52gr and up and go for it. To be perfectly honest your group with Hornady 55gr FMJ is above average in most AR rifles. Quoted:
pushing Hornady 55g fmjbt This is your main problem. Although some handloaders will have sub MOA accuracy with a FMJ bullet most will not, in fact very few will. If you want Sub MOA accuracy you have to use a bullet designed for accuracy and the FMJ ain't it. Getcha some Sierra Matchkings in 52gr and up and go for it. To be perfectly honest your group with Hornady 55gr FMJ is above average in most AR rifles. Yes steve has hit the nail on the head. The Hornady 55gr FMJ while being a pretty good general purpose bullet is not know for being a MOA bullet. I have several loads for my VTR-15 that are under MOA the 55gr Hornady FMJ is NOT one of them. It's usually under 1.5" but not by much. OP. Not sure if you were complaining or happy. With that bullet I would be happy with the result you got. |
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Quoted:
This is your main problem. Although some handloaders will have sub MOA accuracy with a FMJ bullet most will not, in fact very few will. If you want Sub MOA accuracy you have to use a bullet designed for accuracy and the FMJ ain't it. Getcha some Sierra Matchkings in 52gr and up and go for it. To be perfectly honest your group with Hornady 55gr FMJ is above average in most AR rifles. Quoted:
pushing Hornady 55g fmjbt This is your main problem. Although some handloaders will have sub MOA accuracy with a FMJ bullet most will not, in fact very few will. If you want Sub MOA accuracy you have to use a bullet designed for accuracy and the FMJ ain't it. Getcha some Sierra Matchkings in 52gr and up and go for it. To be perfectly honest your group with Hornady 55gr FMJ is above average in most AR rifles. I dunno about that, bullet shoots fine for me in my 16" 1/7 twist rainier arms CS16 upper with an aimpoint pro @ 100 yards this was my first batch of .223 ive ever made, got this group during my workup My guess is OP is a little excited and needs to focus on a smooth trigger pull 
24.4gr H335 win 7.5 range brass 
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Quoted:
I dunno about that, bullet shoots fine for me in my 16" 1/7 twist rainier arms CS16 upper with an aimpoint pro @ 100 yards this was my first batch of .223 ive ever made, got this group during my workup My guess is OP is a little excited and needs to focus on a smooth trigger pull
24.4gr H335 win 7.5 range brass <a href="http://s12.photobucket.com/user/xXLucidXx/media/20131109_150407_zps65c11336.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/xXLucidXx/20131109_150407_zps65c11336.jpg</a> Quoted:
Quoted:
pushing Hornady 55g fmjbt This is your main problem. Although some handloaders will have sub MOA accuracy with a FMJ bullet most will not, in fact very few will. If you want Sub MOA accuracy you have to use a bullet designed for accuracy and the FMJ ain't it. Getcha some Sierra Matchkings in 52gr and up and go for it. To be perfectly honest your group with Hornady 55gr FMJ is above average in most AR rifles. I dunno about that, bullet shoots fine for me in my 16" 1/7 twist rainier arms CS16 upper with an aimpoint pro @ 100 yards this was my first batch of .223 ive ever made, got this group during my workup My guess is OP is a little excited and needs to focus on a smooth trigger pull
24.4gr H335 win 7.5 range brass <a href="http://s12.photobucket.com/user/xXLucidXx/media/20131109_150407_zps65c11336.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/xXLucidXx/20131109_150407_zps65c11336.jpg</a> Like I said some have great results with them, but most do not. Run another 20 rounds at that target with this bullet and report back. |
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Thanks for the feedback all. Motor1: not really complaining, more like laughing as it was THIS close! Generally only good for about 1.2" with factory loads at best. Rifle: Colt LE6920, BBL is 1:7 twist, free floated, non-chrome lined. Stock trigger. Collapsible bipod. Caldwell rest under the handgrip. That could be the problem as I have to put it on a box of cartridges to get it up. Could also be the scope mount as it is a bit low. Scope: Nikon Buckmaster 3-9 x 40. Set to 9. Eyes: Middle aged. Not a chance this was with iron sights. Each charge was individually weighed. Cases matched for type, weight and length. Based on the responses, I would say it is likely either breathing or the rear rest. So if it is shooter error or my set up, I am happy indeed as they are both easy to improve. My ladder was 23g to 25g in .5g increments. Five shots each. Looking for pressure signs more than anything else. My next step, since I saw no evidence of over pressure is a ten shot group of each- still watching for pressure like a hawk, but also looking for more consistency. Here is a ten shot group of the same bullet, same primer, same case type over 26g Varget:  Thanks all. |
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Quoted: This is your main problem. Although some handloaders will have sub MOA accuracy with a FMJ bullet most will not, in fact very few will. If you want Sub MOA accuracy you have to use a bullet designed for accuracy and the FMJ ain't it. Getcha some Sierra Matchkings in 52gr and up and go for it. To be perfectly honest your group with Hornady 55gr FMJ is above average in most AR rifles. Quoted: pushing Hornady 55g fmjbt This is your main problem. Although some handloaders will have sub MOA accuracy with a FMJ bullet most will not, in fact very few will. If you want Sub MOA accuracy you have to use a bullet designed for accuracy and the FMJ ain't it. Getcha some Sierra Matchkings in 52gr and up and go for it. To be perfectly honest your group with Hornady 55gr FMJ is above average in most AR rifles. |
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Quoted:
OK, fair point. I only have a couple hundred 223 loads under my belt so I thought to stay with a similar load to the factory rounds I had been shooting lately. I will put some SMKs in the 52-69 range on the list! Quoted:
Quoted:
pushing Hornady 55g fmjbt This is your main problem. Although some handloaders will have sub MOA accuracy with a FMJ bullet most will not, in fact very few will. If you want Sub MOA accuracy you have to use a bullet designed for accuracy and the FMJ ain't it. Getcha some Sierra Matchkings in 52gr and up and go for it. To be perfectly honest your group with Hornady 55gr FMJ is above average in most AR rifles. I own 8, or 9 AR-15's, and they ALL shoot less than MOA. |
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Landshark9025,
Better bullets will shrink your groups. A trigger up grade will go a long way too. By the sound of your rifle it deserves a better trigger. You don't have to go nuts. Something equivalent to a Rock River 2 stage NM would work fine. I have to say by your description you did very well. It's hard to shoot tiny groups with a stock trigger, suspect rest and 9x scope. The scope can stay but correcting the other 2 will get you big gains + better bullets of course. 
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Quoted: Back in the "help me pick a powder" thread, the one that rose to the top was IMR 8208. It wasn't in the original group as I must have missed it. So I picked up a lb of that and worked up a ladder with 5 shot groups to check for pressure, etc. My overall goal in all this is to get tighter groups through 1. Making better ammo, 2. Making it cheaper so I can shoot more. Step one is a "sub MOA group". Granted, I know you are not supposed to be looking for that with an AR-15 as it is not what it is designed for, but it is the rifle I own. Anyway, here is the 23.5g 8208, pushing Hornady 55g fmjbt with Remington 7 1/2 SRP. Missed it by THAT much! On another note, any idea what would cause the four to stack like that...other than shooter error? Primer, check For better accuracy, you need better bullets. I suggest Sierra 52 gr Match King. Then use same headstamp cases, all trimmed to the same length. No crimp. With my Sierra 52 gr Match King load, I'm disappointed with 5 shot .750 groups. Knowing .5 groups are the norm. Keep trying, you will get there.
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If you don't want to spring for a whole new trigger you can have your existing trigger worked for $40-$60.
http://triggerwork.net/ar15s.html |
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